South Wales 'Metro' updates

[DD2]

Growing up in Crieigau there was always talk of using the old railway(s) for one thing or another - the one plan people really objected to was the plan to take the lorries from Creigiau Quarry down the Rwhisaeson alignment from the quarry entrance at the end of Station Rd down to Llantrisant Rd/A4119 bypassing most of Heol Pant-y-Gored

Mind you I think if it ever comes to pass they will first off run it through Plas Dwr on the Rhiwsaeson alignment, then under the M4 at Heol Sant-y-Nyll and into Creigiau on the Efail Isaf alignment but stopping short of the old station site as the bridge over Cardiff Rd is long gone (the deck went in the 70s and the road was straightened in the late 80s to get rid of the nasty s-bend) so they would need to build a bridge which I reckon would be phase 2 although there is a lot of land around the old station site that could be used for stabling trains so perhaps they'd build the bridge as part of that - it will be interesting to see what (if anything) happens

Did the old Railway line to Creigiau pass through where Canada Lodge is now? Appears to be a bit of gradient around that area to avoid. I am sure an alternative route could be found especially if the line will be Tram Train. Loads of house building proposed in West Cardiff, it will be needed. Has there ever been a released detailed plan of the proposed route from Fairwater? Passing Fairwater yesterday on the City line, there appears to be houses located where you would expect the line to diverge off the city line.

 

[Meerkat]

May I ask how one should pronounce Creigiau.
I have only got a vague understanding of Welsh pronunciation.

 

[stressdoubt]

May I ask how one should pronounce Creigiau.
I have only got a vague understanding of Welsh pronunciation.

It is a funny one because it does depend if you are a first language Welsh speaker or not.

Phonetically it goes like this:

If your first langauge is English then it's pronounced "Cry-guh"
If your first language is Welsh then it's pronounced "Craigy-eye"

 

[John R]

English is most definitely my first language, but I have always pronounced it with “eye” at the end.

 

[K.o.R]

Yes it's to be a Park & Ride bus interchange. It's looked finished since late last year but back in January it was reported in the Branch Line Society's newsletter that Monmouthshire County Council passenger transport planning manager believed that safety checks, which could take up to six months, were required as there were some late changes made that now need effectively signing off and the place can't open until that has been done. In 2021 the cost of the scheme had already risen to £7.2M from the £3.5M estimate so think of a number as to how much it is now.

Meanwhile, from a recent Weekly Operating notice, attached is a "go live" date for the Treherbert line's overhead wires...

I was in Trehafod last weekend and noted that the wires are only up over one of the two tracks. Presumably they're going to get that finished before they turn it on on the 26th?

It's bonkers that the main line outside the depot isn't wired.

And they couldn't wire Ponty because of the listed station building, but they stuck that monstrosity of a footbridge in?

The FLIRT on my way home was very nice to travel on though. Shame it didn't even have the capability of using the wires.

 

[Last Hurrah]

With Aberdare & Merthyr trains due to serve City Line stations in the new timetable from 2nd June, will the platform extensions at Waungron Park, Fairwater, Danescourt have been completed to enable 4 coach trains

What will become of the single coach 153 units that normally serve the City Line ?

Are they cleared to venture to Pontypridd & beyond or are they able benefit the good folk of Penarth, perhaps running as a pair

 

[AdamWW]

With Aberdare & Merthyr trains due to serve City Line stations in the new timetable from 2nd June, will the platform extensions at Waungron Park, Fairwater, Danescourt have been completed to enable 4 coach trains

So far as I've seen the Aberdare & Merthyr trains rarely if ever run as 4 car trains these days so maybe not much of a problem.

What will become of the single coach 153 units that normally serve the City Line ?

Are they cleared to venture to Pontypridd & beyond or are they able benefit the good folk of Penarth, perhaps running as a pair

I don't believe they are allowed beyond Pontypridd but can run between Rhymney and Penarth.

Pairs of 153s have run on the Coryton Line in the past when it hasn't run through to the City Line though it's a bit tight at Ty Glas (which I presume will also need a platform extension for 756s to run).

I think TfW have said that 231s will continue on the Rhymney Line but I haven't seen what the plans are for Penarth-Coryton-Caerphilly.

 

[Last Hurrah]

So far as I've seen the Aberdare & Merthyr trains rarely if ever run as 4 car trains these days so maybe not much of a problem.

The morning commute is concentrated around fewer trains, whereas the evening commute tends to be a more staggered occurance . .

On occasions in the past, trains have been full by the time they’ve reached Llandaff

Will a 2 coach train originating from an upper valley be of sufficient capacity to enable those wishing to board at Danescourt, Fairwater, Waungron Park, Ninian Park now its re-routed around the City line ?

If people are left behind and are late for work, the new service will be off to an in-auspicious start . . .

 

[AdamWW]

The morning commute is concentrated around fewer trains, whereas the evening commute tends to be a more staggered occurance . .

On occasions in the past, trains have been full by the time they’ve reached Llandaff

Will a 2 coach train originating from an upper valley be of sufficient capacity to enable those wishing to board at Danescourt, Fairwater, Waungron Park & Ninian Park now its rerouted around the City line ?

If people are left behind and are late for work, the new service will be off to a auspicious start . . .

I suppose it depends if people getting off to avoid having to go the long way round to Llandaff, Cathays and maybe Queen Street balance those getting on.

 

[John R]

With trains from Aberdare to Merthyr being possible without a change, given the price of a ticket (£4.30) is half that from Aberdare to Cardiff (£8.70) would you be entitled to buy such a ticket and then break your journey in Cardiff?

I’d be relying on the fact that if a train travels from A to B, regardless of the route it takes, that will be a permitted route.

 

[Woolos 22]

With trains from Aberdare to Merthyr being possible without a change, given the price of a ticket (£4.30) is half that from Aberdare to Cardiff (£8.70) would you be entitled to buy such a ticket and then break your journey in Cardiff?

I’d be relying on the fact that if a train travels from A to B, regardless of the route it takes, that will be a permitted route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2024 ==

No as the train is go

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2024 ==

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2024 ==

No as the train is go

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2024 ==

No as the train is go

No the train is going via cardiff. You need to change at Abercynon which is the short route

 

[Dai Corner]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2024 ==

No as the train is go

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 May 2024 ==



No the train is going via cardiff. You need to change at Abercynon which is the short route

The TfW journey planner offers the extended tour via Cardiff as well as the change at Abercynon. I can foresee some interesting discussions at gatelines and on board if they don't fix this by, for example, changing the headcode at Queen Street and splitting the service in two. ScotRail do this on their Fife circle services I believe.

 

[AdamWW]

The TfW journey planner offers the extended tour via Cardiff as well as the change at Abercynon. I can foresee some interesting discussions at gatelines and on board if they don't fix this by, for example, changing the headcode at Queen Street and splitting the service in two. ScotRail do this on their Fife circle services I believe.

I do not see how there can be any obligation to change at Abercynon so long as the tickets remain routed "any permitted" because a through train between origin and destination station on a ticket is always a permitted route.

However, reading the NRCoT, breaking at Cardiff probably isn't valid, though it's a bit vague and I don't know where (or if) the rules are stated more clearly.
The NRCoT says with regard to the right to break journeys that "this may not be the case with some through services that take an indirect route" (one of the many cases where the NRCoT clearly departs from the pretence that it's an actual contract).

The information box below (so not even pretending to be contratual) says: "For example, where a train service makes a circular journey, you may travel either way to the destination on your ticket. However, you would not normally be allowed to get off at an intermediate station where the fare would have been higher". Which isn't what's happening here but something similar.

Presumably if there isn't anything concrete barring a "change" at Cardiff the tickets could be changed to a suitable routing e.g. "not via Pontypridd" to prevent this.

Pretending to split the service at Queen Street would be unhelpful to someone who wanted to travel, say, between City Line stations and Heath. Presumably a journey planner would refuse to show the through service as the connection time would be too short.

 

[Krokodil]

Presumably if there isn't anything concrete barring a "change" at Cardiff the tickets could be changed to a suitable routing e.g. "not via Pontypridd" to prevent this.

This would be the most sensible approach, it's how tickets were done to avoid people using a Liverpool-Crewe ticket on the Liverpool-Manchester-Crewe stoppers.

 

[Bob Price]

I think the Metro when it is fully up and running will probably be tap on tap off and a much simpler fare structure. Don't think actual tickets with 'via' on them will be a thing, more zonal like TfL.

 

[AdamWW]

I think the Metro when it is fully up and running will probably be tap on tap off and a much simpler fare structure. Don't think actual tickets with 'via' on them will be a thing, more zonal like TfL.

The fare structure can't get a lot simpler than it is now. Just single and return anytime fares, none of which I think currently have any route restrictions.

And in fact they are already based on a zonal structure complete with the behaviour that fares into Cardiff and back out again can cost the same as just into Cardiff. But the zones hasn't been explicitly advertised for a long time.

 

[Envoy]

I don’t think a zonal system will work. We need something that will allow the tap on/off to work for really short hops. Take for example Radyr to Fairwater = a journey of 6 minutes yet the fare is £4.10 return. Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Bay is a 4 minute journey and the fare is £3.10 return. Paying so much for such short distances is likely to deter people from using the service and they may just walk.

 

[takno]

I don’t think a zonal system will work. We need something that will allow the tap on/off to work for really short hops. Take for example Radyr to Fairwater = a journey of 6 minutes yet the fare is £4.10 return. Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Bay is a 4 minute journey and the fare is £3.10 return. Paying so much for such short distances is likely to deter people from using the service and they may just walk.

I don't think anybody regards people walking instead as a problem - it's more if they start using a car that it becomes self-defeating. The prices you quote seem pretty reasonable anyway - very much in line with bus fares, and if you charge much less it starts to be not worth the cost of collecting it.

 

[Tom125]

I think the Metro when it is fully up and running will probably be tap on tap off and a much simpler fare structure. Don't think actual tickets with 'via' on them will be a thing, more zonal like TfL.

I hope so. I’ve been using tap on/off on the Ebbw Vale line recently it’s so easy (and cheaper).

The daily/ weekly cap is also a great feature.

 

[rf_ioliver]

It is a funny one because it does depend if you are a first language Welsh speaker or not.

Phonetically it goes like this:

If your first langauge is English then it's pronounced "Cry-guh"
If your first language is Welsh then it's pronounced "Craigy-eye"

Craig-ii-eye, but the "ii-eye" becomes more "ah" in colloquial pronunciation. Sorry, not going to try IPA here. Grew up near there, both pronounciations were used.

 

[Pat Figg]

With trains from Aberdare to Merthyr being possible without a change, given the price of a ticket (£4.30) is half that from Aberdare to Cardiff (£8.70) would you be entitled to buy such a ticket and then break your journey in Cardiff?

I’d be relying on the fact that if a train travels from A to B, regardless of the route it takes, that will be a permitted route.

I've been wondering about this for ages but didn't want to draw attention to what is a very obvious flaw in the ticketing system in case there are people monitoring these things. I previously mentioned a similar thing regarding Aberdare to Ebbw Vale tickets and breaking your journey at Newport. Last time I checked that was still possible. A few people suggested it would have been better if I hadn't mentioned it in the first place! I would, though, be somewhat nervous about attempting Aberdare to Merthyr with a break of journey at Cardiff Central. The barriers probably wouldn't accept it and then you'd get a whole load of grief from the staff even though you're in the right, technically anyway. Not sure about morally, as I'd be fully aware I was exploiting a loophole.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 May 2024 ==

The fare structure can't get a lot simpler than it is now. Just single and return anytime fares, none of which I think currently have any route restrictions.

And in fact they are already based on a zonal structure complete with the behaviour that fares into Cardiff and back out again can cost the same as just into Cardiff. But the zones hasn't been explicitly advertised for a long time.

The current zonal system is a bit of a joke which is probably why it's no longer advertised. I regularly buy Aberdare to Maesteg weekly tickets, not because I have any particular desire to visit Maesteg (though I do tend to enjoy my occasional trips to the town) but because it's the same price as a weekly to Cardiff Central. Once you have an Aberdare (or Merthyr/Treherbert/Rhymney/Ebbw Vale) to Maesteg weekly ticket you're free to travel to any station on the South Wales Mainline or Vale of Glamorgan Line between Cardiff and Bridgend e.g. Barry, Pontyclun, Llantwit Major. It's the nearest thing I can find to a South Wales Weekly Rover! Occasionally I buy Aberdare to Rhymney or Ebbw Vale weekly tickets for similar reasons.

Annoyingly though, if I ever want to travel to Merthyr or the Rhondda (the adjacent valleys and also the same zone as Aberdare) I have to fork out for a new ticket as my weekly will get me to Abercynon or Pontypridd but isn't valid to use on the Merthyr and Treherbert lines. I became more aware of this when I was having hospital appointments that seemed to randomly switch between PCH in Merthyr and the Royal Glam. I had to buy a new ticket for the short journey to Merthyr but if my appointment was miles away at the Royal Glam I could use my weekly ticket to get to Pontyclun and then walk from there. Took bloody hours but it was free for me.

If it was a proper zonal system a ticket from Aberdare to Cardiff Central would need to be a Zone 5 to Zone 1 ticket but would then be valid for all stations in Zones 5 to 1 (as on the London Underground and other transport systems which use zones).

 

[Signal_Box]

I read in MR that they are working up a spec for conversion work so that the tram/trains could work on street sections, presumably at a multi-million quid extra cost.
I though the whole point of buying the tram trains was that they could do street extensions, so why weren’t they ready for that from the start?!

That little bit of information didn’t pass me by as well. Buy a non standard, restricted route fleet of trams only for them not to be actually able to run on tram tracks without significant/ expensive modifications. Love it !

So for our £800m originally upgrade we have a disconnected valley network, non continuous / cheap electrification which stops short of Cardiff Queen Street and Central, a non standard “tram” fleet and one new station on the bay line.

Well chaps, makes you proud to be a welsh taxpayer doesn’t it.

How good it could have been….

 

[K.o.R]

That little bit of information didn’t pass me by as well. Buy a non standard, restricted route fleet of trams only for them not to be actually able to run on tram tracks without significant/ expensive modifications. Love it !

So for our £800m originally upgrade we have a disconnected valley network, non continuous / cheap electrification which stops short of Cardiff Queen Street and Central, a non standard “tram” fleet and one new station on the bay line.

Well chaps, makes you proud to be a welsh taxpayer doesn’t it.

How good it could have been….

I'm only an honorary Welsh resident (4 years back in 2004) but it is most galling.

I remember seeing the BBC news report about electrification of all the Cardiff area stuff, Bridgend, Penarth, Barry, and all the valleys, and on to Swansea, all of it going to be shiny and electric.

 

[Signal_Box]

I'm only an honorary Welsh resident (4 years back in 2004) but it is most galling.

I remember seeing the BBC news report about electrification of all the Cardiff area stuff, Bridgend, Penarth, Barry, and all the valleys, and on to Swansea, all of it going to be shiny and electric.

lost in the mist of time was a 2001 plan by first group to electrify the valleys network, but turn it into a light rail tram network separated from mainline heavy rail. Obviously Arriva saved us that time, who’d of thought it Arriva doing something positive for the welsh network.

The original great western and valley’s electrification was planned to use Class 319s from Thameslink, and 313 units on the valleys!

 

[Markdvdman]

I always buy a weekly Merthyr to Bridgend. The max for the zone for the £30.50 weekly. I often utilise it but I wonder if will still be a zone after June 1st?

 

[AdamWW]

I always buy a weekly Merthyr to Bridgend. The max for the zone for the £30.50 weekly. I often utilise it but I wonder if will still be a zone after June 1st?

Presumably you could check now by setting a journey planner to the appropriate date?

 

[Markdvdman]

I have it says it still applies but you never know until the time

 

[Dr Day]

lost in the mist of time was a 2001 plan by first group to electrify the valleys network, but turn it into a light rail tram network separated from mainline heavy rail. Obviously Arriva saved us that time, who’d of thought it Arriva doing something positive for the welsh network.

The original great western and valley’s electrification was planned to use Class 319s from Thameslink, and 313 units on the valleys!

Maybe some of the rationale behind those schemes was spend some capital but to reduce per-mile operating costs, and the way things have transpired since have actually led to higher operating costs, hence some of the more ambitious plans have had to be scaled back as gap between costs and revenue has got bigger, and like everyone Welsh Govt have to tighten their belts?

Out of interest, what did Arriva 'save' that passengers actually want and wouldn't have got from light rail? I would have thought the additional frequency that could be afforded for the same operating spend and being able to be dropped off directly onto the streets would have been worth the possibly marginal lower top speed along certain sections of the route with line-of-sight signalling? The new vehicles still don't have toilets.....

 

[anthony263]

lost in the mist of time was a 2001 plan by first group to electrify the valleys network, but turn it into a light rail tram network separated from mainline heavy rail. Obviously Arriva saved us that time, who’d of thought it Arriva doing something positive for the welsh network.

The original great western and valley’s electrification was planned to use Class 319s from Thameslink, and 313 units on the valleys!

I'd love to have read that report

 

[Bob Price]

I heard 315's were going to be used. Simply electric Sprinters. Probably very little extra actual change from what we had at that time.