Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[Peter Sarf]

I pass the Alstom site almost daily on my way into and out of Derby and there are noticeably fewer almost completed units outside these days. A driving car for 730235 (last but one?) for West Midlands is against the fence alongside Osmaston Road, along with parts of 229 and 230. There are also still one or two SWR 700/701 Arterio cars on the site as well as a few 720s, and although there are still a few units inside on the assembly line its obvious that production is slowing down. It will be a very sad end if the site closes and all the workers lose their jobs.

I agree. This is a very worrying time for Derby as a whole. I watched the Medway Towns where I was brought up lose Chatham dockyard in the late 1970s. It was a fairly significant blow but what shocked us all was the domino effect as suppliers went under. It seemed like about 85% of the other industries in Medway fell by the wayside. I was a student at the time and watched the town centre weekdays go from housewives out shopping to couples out shopping. That experience of realising nothing is permanent or secure modifies my attitude to this day.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So a month on, what exactly has happened, no announcement of any order, TfL how we are Governed meetings shows no TfL Board or Finance meeting until June (although chair can sign off urgent items). So not clear if Government or TfL or a Rosco is initially funding these. Or if simply didn't get to a price that was acceptabl so hasn't actually happened.

The end of May was given by Mark Harper as a key milestone in the negotiations for more 345s, so no announcement was expected before then really.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The end of May was given by Mark Harper as a key milestone in the negotiations for more 345s, so no announcement was expected before then really.

Well if its not by then purdah will kick in now election has been called so they won't be allowed to do anything. Suspect it will be pushed through next week though as a good news story that the local Tory candidates can use on the doorstep.

 

[Meerkat]

Does purdah still allow them to promise stuff (to the public)? In which case its almost better politically as they might not have to deliver and if they lose saddle the next government with the promises.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The manifesto is the place to promise stuff to the public during an election campaign.
What they can't do is make significant decisions or tell the civil service to make policy changes.
The Derby situation is curious - placing an order would not be a change of declared policy, especially as the number (10 trains) is known, but it does need contract details sorting out which will take time and ministerial involvement.

 

[Meerkat]

The manifesto is the place to promise stuff to the public during an election campaign.
What they can't do is make significant decisions or tell the civil service to make policy changes.
The Derby situation is curious - placing an order would not be a change of declared policy, especially as the number (10 trains) is known, but it does need contract details sorting out which will take time and ministerial involvement.

If the ministers agree they are doomed they might just sign anything as a poison pill for the incomers!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If the ministers agree they are doomed they might just sign anything as a poison pill for the incomers!

I don't think the Perm Secs will let them do that.
In any case I doubt there will be anything to sign before July 4.

 

[greyman42]

If the ministers agree they are doomed they might just sign anything as a poison pill for the incomers!

I think that once an election has been called, the major parties have to agree on what is rushed through parliament.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've just had an election leaflet from our prospective Conservative candidate (the current MP for an adjacent constituency).
It promises £1 billion to electrify the North Wales main line (as promised by Rishi Sunak in his HS2 Phase 2 cancellation speech).

 

[Pinus contorta]

I've just had an election leaflet from our prospective Conservative candidate (the current MP for an adjacent constituency).
It promises £1 billion to electrify the North Wales main line (as promised by Rishi Sunak in his HS2 Phase 2 cancellation speech).

Sounds familiar dialogue to what was supposedly promised by Mr Sunak to modernise the Cumbrian Coast line (with HS2 cancellation money) that was interpreted by the local MP to mean electrification of the Cumbrian Coast line.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So end of May has come and gone and no announcement although once the election was called the window of opportunity was a few days before parliament was prorogued. Alstom will now have to wait an additional month although how Labour couldn't authorise this now given the rhetoric from them should give Alstom some confidence to hold off making any further draconian decisions on staffing.

 

[Trainman40083]

So end of May has come and gone and no announcement although once the election was called the window of opportunity was a few days before parliament was prorogued. Alstom will now have to wait an additional month although how Labour couldn't authorise this now given the rhetoric from them should give Alstom some confidence to hold off making any further draconian decisions on staffing.

You must have missed the news, although it did get mentioned on Derbyshire Live. The Government has done their part in terms of authorising the purchase of the ten trains. Detailed discussions are now taking place between TfL (the buyer) and Alstom (the seller) to finalise the deal. It is said that it is taking longer to sort out than expected. It could take a month,but could take a week. Not sure how "Labour could authorise this now" could actually make a difference, given the spend is authorised, just not the detail. At this rate, the South Eastern order will be in the table.

 

[800001]

You must have missed the news, although it did get mentioned on Derbyshire Live. The Government has done their part in terms of authorising the purchase of the ten trains. Detailed discussions are now taking place between TfL (the buyer) and Alstom (the seller) to finalise the deal. It is said that it is taking longer to sort out than expected. It could take a month,but could take a week. Not sure how "Labour could authorise this now" could actually make a difference, given the spend is authorised, just not the detail. At this rate, the South Eastern order will be in the table.

I’ve attached a picture of Fridays Derby Telegraph news paper, headline ‘Deadline Day for Derby’.

 

[Dan G]

Alstom deal looks set to fail 'end of May' deadline, but could be done soon

But hopes are still high that a contract could be signed by the end of June - or even as early as next week

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

An Alstom spokesman spoke encouragingly when he told Derbyshire Live: “We are coming to the end of an intense period of discussions with the Department for Transport and Transport for London regarding a train order for the Elizabeth line.

"Transport for London’s need to expand the existing train fleet is a result of Elizabeth line passenger demand being stronger than forecast. We are now working to conclude this matter very soon."

It is understood from a source that discussions have still been ongoing with the likelihood of a contract being signed before voters go to the polls on July 4.

 

[Trainman40083]

Alstom deal looks set to fail 'end of May' deadline, but could be done soon

But hopes are still high that a contract could be signed by the end of June - or even as early as next week

www.derbytelegraph.co.uk

I guess given the Government has authorised the spend, it it down to TfL and Alstom to sort out the details

 

[Energy]

I guess given the Government has authorised the spend, it it down to TfL and Alstom to sort out the details

No tender has been published relating to private financing, so I assume the Treasury will fund it. As such the discussions with TfL will be limited (really build to 345 spec) and will mostly being Alstom and the Treasury agreeing on a price.

 

[hwl]

No tender has been published relating to private financing, so I assume the Treasury will fund it. As such the discussions with TfL will be limited (really build to 345 spec) and will mostly being Alstom and the Treasury agreeing on a price.

It is a bit more complicated than that.
TfL were contemplating an order of 5 units, the cost of creating stabling for an extra 5 is a reasonable amount.

 

[Nym]

It is a bit more complicated than that.
TfL were contemplating an order of 5 units, the cost of creating stabling for an extra 5 is a reasonable amount.

Leave them at Long Marston with all the other Aventuras...?

 

[hwl]

Leave them at Long Marston with all the other Aventuras...?

I don't think there is currently enough unused track at Long Marston to do that!

 

[Snow1964]

No tender has been published relating to private financing, so I assume the Treasury will fund it. As such the discussions with TfL will be limited (really build to 345 spec) and will mostly being Alstom and the Treasury agreeing on a price.

Potentially TfL will fund part (or all) of it (and might be some sort of grant towards purchase).

Don't forget TfL recently exercised a break point option and bought the class 378 fleet because it is cheaper over remaining life than paying for expensive lease. So appears current thinking is owning is better if makes financial sense.

Totally speculative thinking, but if TfL then found they had too many 345s, bound to keep any owned ones, and off-lease any surplus.

 

[Invincible]

The current 345s are leased, "345 Rail Leasing - a consortium comprising Equitix Investment Management Ltd, NatWest and SMBC Leasing."

TfL completes 'sale and leaseback' of Elizabeth line trains to 345 Rail Leasing Consortium

Transport for London completes ‘sale and leaseback’ of Elizabeth line trains to 345 Rail Leasing Consortium

tfl.gov.uk

So the new 345s might be an extension of the agreement?

 

[Trainbike46]

The current 345s are leased, "345 Rail Leasing - a consortium comprising Equitix Investment Management Ltd, NatWest and SMBC Leasing."

TfL completes 'sale and leaseback' of Elizabeth line trains to 345 Rail Leasing Consortium

Transport for London completes ‘sale and leaseback’ of Elizabeth line trains to 345 Rail Leasing Consortium

tfl.gov.uk

So the new 345s might be an extension of the agreement?

I doubt it, because that was a sale and lease back, so TfL sold the 345s to them to get capital (which I believe they used for new tube trains?), and is leasing them back - it certainly wouldn't be automatic to do the same with the new 345s

 

[Invincible]

I doubt it, because that was a sale and lease back, so TfL sold the 345s to them to get capital (which I believe they used for new tube trains?), and is leasing them back - it certainly wouldn't be automatic to do the same with the new 345s

Think you are right, the new Siemens Piccadilly line trains seem to have been brought (with the cash from the 345s 20 year leasing deal?) rather than leased.

 

[gabrielhj07]

Extra 345s confirmed.

 

[Cowley]

I think we can probably leave this here now that the circumstances have changed.
The order for new class 345s is being discussed here:

Alstom win order for ten new class 345s

https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2024/6/alstom-signs-eu430-million-contract-10-aventra-trains-associated-maintenance-elizabeth-line-london Alstom signs a €430 million contract for 10 Aventra trains with associated maintenance for the Elizabeth line in London Contract worth around...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks everyone