Livery under Great British Railways

[Mr. SW]

Blue and Grey with dirty windows, fag ends everywhere and that odd smell that only compartment Mk 1s have when left in a siding on a hot day. Mmm.

 

[jon0844]

If the new sign above the departure boards at Liverpool Street is anything to go by, the trains will be painted plain white with giant text saying 'train' on the side.

And someone will be really proud of themselves and the fact it only cost £1bn to come up with.

 

[Skimble19]

Southern: GatEx 387s are used on some Southern services
Great Northern: GatEx 387s are used on some GN services

What's more is that the GN/GatEx/Southern operational split is very longstanding and the operations are discrete from each other. Completely unlike Northern (within the confines of the East side at any rate).

As an FYI, there are no Gatwick Express units in service on Great Northern anymore, and won’t be again any time soon. The /2 units are back south of the river now.

 

[WAB]

Those are the only ways I can see local trains being locally controlled at the county level without causing political drama with the combined authorities or capacity being completely wreaked by local trains having to stop with county borders. Let me remind you that you who bought up local Yorkshire services, I was just entertaining your thoughts and explaining why I don't think it is as unworkable as you seem to think.

If the only way you can conceive devolution of primary control of the regional routes and thus control of their liveries is to either not actually devolve significant control, have trains turned at the county boundary, or have both authorities contribute to the running of the service, then it is unworkable.

More likely to have pride in a local brand than a huge state blob.

You will note that I did not advocate completely removing the local brands, I just proposed introducing some commonality to the existing brands.

It’s relevant because they are splitting brands for different markets - someone buying a Bentley wouldn’t buy the same car with a VW badge on it.
You want to sell long distance train travel as a great option, not the same product as the muppets who keep making you late to work.

People still see the railway as just the railway. People mix and match operators all the time, often through third-party sites. A little more commonality is not going to change things significantly.

What's the point of being a country if our own flag is so loathsome?

I don't care if it reminds people of Brexit. I don't care if the Scots and Welsh don't like it, quite frankly. It's the flag of our country. If we can't even stomach seeing that, then we are not a country. Just an economic trading zone run by a giant local council.

It needs to be used tastefully - painting everything red white and blue doesn't achieve this, nor does an American-style compulsion to use it everywhere.

Why don’t they have GBR the permanent concession operator for London Overground and let all suburban railways in London be both GBR and LO at the same time. There must be a way for compromise rather than the situation that we have now which is the worst for integration into London’s transportation system and the wider Railway network because of years of bad blood between TFL and Westminster.

What division of responsibilities are you thinking of? And what benefits are you expecting?

 

[Transilien]

What division of responsibilities are you thinking of? And what benefits are you expecting?

GBR would be the ones who would run the concession instead of Arriva Rail London so GBR would do the day to day operation while TFL would specify ticket prices and procure rolling stock.

 

[Meerkat]

We aren't arguing about whether nationalisation is a good thing.

We are discussing what livery is most appropriate, given that renationalisation is happening.

So am I. Being owned by the same company doesnt mean it all has to have one livery, and I believe a nationalised state railway blob is best hidden because it’s not got a great reputation.

It's a lot more expensive for the travellers than most railways in Europe though (I would be enclined to say even the UK's), which may be one thing to bear in mind.

I thought studies showed walk up fares were more expensive but the actual fares used were not that much different?

 

[David M]

What's the point of being a country if our own flag is so loathsome?

The UK isn't a country. England is, Scotland is etc.
In addition, like it or not, for many in Scotland, the Union Jack is the Butchers Apron.

 

[Tester]

It's a lot more expensive for the travellers than most railways in Europe though (I would be enclined to say even the UK's), which may be one thing to bear in mind.

It isn't in terms of local cost of living, which is relevant.

In addition, for all but the most casual of users, significant reductions are available.

And for frequent users the GA (unlimited travel on virtually all public transport in Switzerland for an annual fee) is a stupendous bargain, working out at little more than a London zone 1-6 travelcard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn't in terms of local cost of living, which is relevant.

And local salaries, which are quite high. It's a high-pay high-service culture. Curiously no minimum wage but as low pay isn't part of the culture one isn't really needed.

 

[JamesT]

The UK isn't a country. England is, Scotland is etc.
In addition, like it or not, for many in Scotland, the Union Jack is the Butchers Apron.

Of course the UK is a country. That the constituent parts of the UK are also countries doesn't make it not one.
I very much doubt that many people outside of nationalist circles refer to the flag like that.

 

[Thirteen]

I think LO and Elizabeth Line wouldn't end up under GBR, it's more likely that TfL takes them inhouse or sort of joint venture. Likewise with things like Scotrail, TFW Wales and Merseyrail.

 

[JLH4AC]

If the only way you can conceive devolution of primary control of the regional routes and thus control of their liveries is to either not actually devolve significant control, have trains turned at the county boundary, or have both authorities contribute to the running of the service, then it is unworkable.

West Yorkshire. North Yorkshire and South Yorkshire are counties, not regions (To make it clear regions in the context of regional trains mean the cultural or official statistical regions of England.). In that part of England the cities are so close together that their suburban rail networks overlap so they need to be split in some way, the local authorities sharing the management in some manner or significant control being devolved to a newly formed body above the local authorities which is problematic in that part of the Yorkshire region (Due to the issue of some South Yorkshire councils and the central government not supporting the formation of the One Yorkshire combined authority.) and such a body would effectively be One Yorkshire baring the East. It worked in the past with the PTEs and West Yorkshire Metro, and the biggest problem you seem to see with it is an x-Yorkshire branded train sometimes being used in County Durham or beyond which does not seem to be a big deal to me.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

The UK isn't a country. England is, Scotland is etc.
In addition, like it or not, for many in Scotland, the Union Jack is the Butchers Apron.

I'm afraid the UK is a country. That's a simple fact.

 

[Gareth]

The UK isn't a country. England is, Scotland is etc.
In addition, like it or not, for many in Scotland, the Union Jack is the Butchers Apron.

The UK is a country.

 

[Mike Machin]

Modern paint and graphics has a very much longer life than the paints used in the days of British Rail, around 15 years or so generally. So much of the current fleet won’t need oak ting for many years.

Unless an exceptionally long change-over period is envisaged, I think the new branding will be confined to using consistent typography across the network and the more prominent use of the double arrow logo. The private sector is still going to play a large role in the railway going forward, with privately-owned freight and open access operators continuing.

With this in mind, I would imagine that the current franchise liveries will continue exactly as they are now, but with a strap line, with something like ‘Great Western Railway - operated by Great British Railways’ with the double arrow.

 

[Meerkat]

Modern paint and graphics has a very much longer life than the paints used in the days of British Rail, around 15 years or so generally. So much of the current fleet won’t need oak ting for many years.

Unless an exceptionally long change-over period is envisaged, I think the new branding will be confined to using consistent typography across the network and the more prominent use of the double arrow logo. The private sector is still going to play a large role in the railway going forward, with privately-owned freight and open access operators continuing.

With this in mind, I would imagine that the current franchise liveries will continue exactly as they are now, but with a strap line, with something like ‘Great Western Railway - operated by Great British Railways’ with the double arrow.

Why would it need the words and the double arrow?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Quite. Is there a better railway anywhere in the world? I can't think of one.
It's not perfect but it's pretty close.

There's plenty of variety on the Swiss scene, though, even if the network is under mainly public ownership with many stakeholders, some private.
Each canton/area of Switzerland gets its oar in on branding, operation and fares offer, some being cross-border (eg Léman Express, TiLo).

The interest in flags and "Great British" things is only because of Scotland's bid for independence.
The Tories wanted to make it clear what was Westminster-funded.
I've no idea if Labour feels the same way now the SNP threat to the Union seems to have receded for a while.
Slapping Union Jacks on trains many of which have been built and are owned abroad seems rather odd to me.
The double-arrow, or similar house symbol, is enough.

 

[JLH4AC]

Modern paint and graphics has a very much longer life than the paints used in the days of British Rail, around 15 years or so generally. So much of the current fleet won’t need oak ting for many years.

Given the state of some class 80xs operated by LNER and GWR, I see at least the Intercity fleet needing reprinting within the next few years

Unless an exceptionally long change-over period is envisaged, I think the new branding will be confined to using consistent typography across the network and the more prominent use of the double arrow logo. The private sector is still going to play a large role in the railway going forward, with privately-owned freight and open access operators continuing.
With this in mind, I would imagine that the current franchise liveries will continue exactly as they are now, but with a strap line, with something like ‘Great Western Railway - operated by Great British Railways’ with the double arrow.

There will probably be a slow but definite process to replace signage to remove non-rail alphabet fonts and signage referring to defunct organisations. I can see "rebadged" versions of the current liveries sticking around for quite a bit but it would likely be less worldly than that probably just the double arrow being stuck next to the current franchise name and extra logos/taglines removed/covered (Though depending on the intention of Labour certain logos such as the TransPennine star, and the West Midlands monogram may be kept.).

The interest in flags and "Great British" things is only because of Scotland's bid for independence.
The Tories wanted to make it clear what was Westminster-funded
I've no idea if Labour feels the same way now the SNP threat to the Union seems to have receded for a while.
Slapping Union Jacks on trains many of which have been built and are owned abroad seems rather odd to me.
The double-arrow, or similar house symbol, is enough.

Beyond the Union Jack version of the double-arrow which as far as I know no one has confirmed that it was intended to be used for (It was not the only version registered for use by GBR.), there has been nothing to suggest that the Tories intend to put flags on the trains (The only party proven to want to do that is the SNP.), the Great British thing was just as much about making out that "GBR is not British Rail 2.0" as it was about jingoism. Putting the Union Jack on the train fleet which in part were made outside the UK/are owned by non-British companies is no more odd than putting the Scottish Saltire on train fleets not made in Scotland or owned by Scottish companies. Though I do agree that a version of the double arrow logo, and possibly using British colours is enough.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TransPennine Express is an ex BR brand that is at least 30 years old, so that might well stay!

I could see toxic brands like Avanti West Coast being binned, but for the start it's possible that brands people don't absolutely hate (e.g. GWR and Chiltern) just getting a "by Great British Railways" tagline.

 

[eldomtom2]

I don't see "by Great British Railways" happening. That places GBR in too minor a role. It'll be something like "GBR Great Western" or "GBR Chiltern".

 

[Djgr]

TransPennine Express is an ex BR brand that is at least 30 years old, so that might well stay!

Well sort of. I think it's a bit more complicated! I don't think TPE was an initial TOC at privatisation?

But some of TPE services don't go anywhere near the pennines and so this branding isn't so effective in a unified railway setting.

 

[WAB]

Take a look at this Greater Anglia advert. The double arrow has been appearing on the end card of their adverts for some time now and this may be a good way of incorporating the corporate identity into the individual brands (although some like Avanti may not live to see this brave new world…)

 

[Djgr]

Take a look at this Greater Anglia advert. The double arrow has been appearing on the end card of their adverts for some time now and this may be a good way of incorporating the corporate identity into the individual brands (although some like Avanti may not live to see this brave new world…)

Avanti might not last until this weekend!

 

[L+Y]

I've always rather like the 800 mockup that did the rounds a few pages back in the thread. Base blue, white doors, and a red strip at each end featuring the double arrow, recalling XP64.

I'm also quite attracted to suggestions of varying the emphasis on colour for intercity, regional and suburban, as Stagecoach did.

And full yellow ends, of course. Never mind flags- my jingoistic opinion is that trains without yellow ends just don't look British!

 

[Sorcerer]

So some people didn't seem too keen on the British flag as a basis for a livery, but conversely using white as a main basis is equally as hard to get right because otherwise you end up with a bland image. I know a railway doesn't have to be flashy and stylish, and for many functionality matters more, but there's nothing wrong with adding a little bit of style and pizazz as long as it doesn't go overboard. I'm hoping the livery designers find the right balance but I expect it will probably be mostly white, assuming any new livery gets applied soon instead of just retaining the old colour schemes of the former TOCs.

And full yellow ends, of course. Never mind flags- my jingoistic opinion is that trains without yellow ends just don't look British!

Presumably with the exception of our distinctively posh-looking steam engines?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So some people didn't seem too keen on the British flag as a basis for a livery, but conversely using white as a main basis is equally as hard to get right because otherwise you end up with a bland image. I know a railway doesn't have to be flashy and stylish, and for many functionality matters more, but there's nothing wrong with adding a little bit of style and pizazz as long as it doesn't go overboard. I'm hoping the livery designers find the right balance but I expect it will probably be mostly white, assuming any new livery gets applied soon instead of just retaining the old colour schemes of the former TOCs.

LNER's livery is a good example of a white-based scheme that doesn't look cheap. Avanti's on the other hand, yuck.

 

[David M]

There has been nothing to suggest that the Tories intend to put flags on the trains (The only party proven to want to do that is the SNP.)

Really?
From 2008:
Transport Scotland, whose own logo was inspired by the Saltire, stressed work on the new train design had started before the SNP came to power last year.
The Conservatives applauded the plan.
A spokesman said: "We welcome this move, because it helps to reclaim the nation's flag from the narrow nationalism represented by the SNP.

All Scotland's trains to get Saltire livery

SCOTLAND'S trains are to be rebranded with a permanent Saltire livery, The Scotsman can reveal. The "ScotRail – Scotland's Railway" branding will give the network its first-ever uniform look, sweeping away different colour schemes used in the east and west.

www.scotsman.com

 

[Sorcerer]

LNER's livery is a good example of a white-based scheme that doesn't look cheap. Avanti's on the other hand, yuck.

I respectfully disagree, I think there is a bit too much white on the 800/801 fleet and the 225 stock has kind of an unpleasant balance between retro and modern with it's InterCity Swallow scheme but with grey doors for the disability access requirements. I do agree about Avanti's livery though, bit too overbranded and imbalanced for my liking. Nothing against the colours themselves, just the application.

 

[JLH4AC]

Really?
From 2008:
Transport Scotland, whose own logo was inspired by the Saltire, stressed work on the new train design had started before the SNP came to power last year.
The Conservatives applauded the plan.
A spokesman said: "We welcome this move, because it helps to reclaim the nation's flag from the narrow nationalism represented by the SNP.

All Scotland's trains to get Saltire livery

SCOTLAND'S trains are to be rebranded with a permanent Saltire livery, The Scotsman can reveal. The "ScotRail – Scotland's Railway" branding will give the network its first-ever uniform look, sweeping away different colour schemes used in the east and west.

www.scotsman.com

That article suggests that the Labour and the Scottish Liberal Democrats coalition would have pushed for a redesign of the livery before it went public. As for Conservatives only said they welcomed the move, likely because it aligned with their talking points of reclaiming the national flags they were making heavy use of at that time, the fact there was no comparable move in England between 2010 and 2024 would suggest they did not actually want flags on trains.

 

[Wivenswold]

From a very old post but I really love this modern adaptation of the old BR Blue/Grey livery, one foot in the past but using modern tones.