YOUR OPINION: What's your ranking of continental European train operators and why?

[berneyarms]

The issue in Ireland regarding catering was that the National Transport Authority did not want to fund it, following hikes in quotes in tenders from suppliers post-Covid.

They now seem to be changing their view (following a lot of negative feedback) and tenders are now being sought for the restoration of a trolley service to the rest of the InterCity network.

 

[43096]

Greece: even worse, ETCS installed but actual operation using train orders.

With catastrophic consequences.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The issue in Ireland regarding catering was that the National Transport Authority did not want to fund it, following hikes in quotes in tenders from suppliers post-Covid.

They now seem to be changing their view (following a lot of negative feedback) and tenders are now being sought for the restoration of a trolley service to the rest of the InterCity network.

Well, the trolley service was well used on the service I took, so perhaps they could operate on a more "permit-to-sell" system with costs/profit being the responsibility of the provider?

 

[RT4038]

Well, the trolley service was well used on the service I took, so perhaps they could operate on a more "permit-to-sell" system with costs/profit being the responsibility of the provider?

If that was in any way financially practicable, then the National Transport Authority would have been receiving 'nil' bids from the tenderers. I rather suspect that, even if the trolley service is well used (whatever that may actually mean) in terms of sales, and margin between cost of goods and revenue is not enough to pay for the staff member an the overheads plus profit.

 

[Flying Snail]

If that was in any way financially practicable, then the National Transport Authority would have been receiving 'nil' bids from the tenderers. I rather suspect that, even if the trolley service is well used (whatever that may actually mean in terms of sales, and margin between cost of goods and revenue is not enough to pay for the staff member an the overheads plus profit.

They should just install some vending machines and be done with it, at least the cold drinks would actually be cold and the coffee better than instant.

 

[takno]

They should just install some vending machines and be done with it, at least the cold drinks would actually be cold and the coffee better than instant.

I think the problem is that a machine in the middle of a train doesn't exactly sell itself. I've often found myself standing next to them for many hours on various European networks, and I've seen people actually use them exactly twice, one time out of which the machine didn't even work. There's a significant staff cost in keeping the machines stocked and serviced, and if sales are poor then the wastage costs become much higher, so it's questionable if vending machines are actually a better economic proposition than trolleys.

Furthermore, a lot of the reason for trolleys is that there's a degree of prestige to at-your-seat personal service. It's something that people expect on much shorter plane trips, and which gives an air of quality compared to coaches for example. This applies even to customers who don't buy anything. Vending machines by contrast give the opposite impression.

 

[berneyarms]

This article clarifies that the trolley service is planned to return across the network.

Irish Rail says catering service to return to Intercity lines by end of year

Catering services were suspended across network in March 2020 at start of Covid-19 pandemic

www.irishtimes.com

Irish Rail says catering service to return to Intercity lines by end of year​

Catering services were suspended across network in March 2020 at start of Covid-19 pandemic​

Irish Rail plans to reintroduce catering services on all of its Intercity trains by the end of the year.

Catering services were suspended across the network in March 2020 at the onset of the Covid-19 pandemic after government restrictions on passenger numbers made the service commercially unviable.

Irish Rail spokesman Barry Kenny confirmed that a national tendering process for the trolley service is at its final stages, subject to funding approval by the National Transport Authority.

“When the Covid restrictions ended in spring 2022, we worked with our catering provider to resume but ultimately they pulled out of the contract citing costs and staffing issues,” he said.

“When we went to market, costs being quoted to us had increased four-fold, for which we weren’t funded. We decided to contract services for Dublin to Cork only, also benefiting Kerry and Limerick customers, within our available funding, while we also pursued a national contract.”

Catering trolleys were reintroduced on the Dublin-Cork route in May of last year whilst the Dublin to Belfast train has a service under a separate contract due to the geographical logistics of crossing the Border.

 

[Krokodil]

I think the problem is that a machine in the middle of a train doesn't exactly sell itself. I've often found myself standing next to them for many hours on various European networks, and I've seen people actually use them exactly twice, one time out of which the machine didn't even work. There's a significant staff cost in keeping the machines stocked and serviced, and if sales are poor then the wastage costs become much higher, so it's questionable if vending machines are actually a better economic proposition than trolleys.

A trolley steward needs to be paid for the whole time that they're on a train. Even the bits of the diagram that are quieter. They still need porters to resupply them with stock en route. If you want catering to be available on every train then you need a steward for every train. A porter at a terminal can restock train after train.

Furthermore, a lot of the reason for trolleys is that there's a degree of prestige to at-your-seat personal service. It's something that people expect on much shorter plane trips, and which gives an air of quality compared to coaches for example. This applies even to customers who don't buy anything. Vending machines by contrast give the opposite impression.

One of the reasons that catering is still provided - even when it runs at a loss - is that it's considered to add value to the overall service. Make the travelling experience better and more people travel etc.

Except that if a passenger asks if there's any food onboard and the response is "sorry, they must be short of staff today" or "no, they don't allocate one to this train" then it's hopeless anyway. The passenger is hungry and next time will bring their own food. Vending machines mean that the passenger gets fed at almost any time of day, without the expense that providing a member of staff for the entirety of a 16 hour unit diagram would entail.

 

[nwales58]

I totally agree about passenger brings own food after one disappointment (my usual Crosscountry rant).

Keeping this purely international so as not to start a row about GB on-board roles ...

Norrtag, as currently operated by Vy, on the X52 2 coach routes north of Umea up to the borders (4 hour journeys) had very low passenger numbers on the 4 services I used recently, even a work-time inbound to Lulea only had about 30 getting off. Single on-board customer-facing crew member checks and sells tickets then sells coffee and pot noodle-level food in the typically 30-60 minutes between stops. All long-life stuff only needing hot water.

Norrtag south of Umea on the X62 sets, which actually have not many more seats but were much fuller, had a much wider stock, I think some vac-pack microwave food, but again all long-life.

So there is a difference between high and lower wage countries in what can be done where demand is low.

Of course on RENFE you can be on a Media Distancia for 4 hours or more, the only trains on the route, and no catering whatsoever.

 

[takno]

I totally agree about passenger brings own food after one disappointment (my usual Crosscountry rant).

Keeping this purely international so as not to start a row about GB on-board roles ...

Norrtag, as currently operated by Vy, on the X52 2 coach routes north of Umea up to the borders (4 hour journeys) had very low passenger numbers on the 4 services I used recently, even a work-time inbound to Lulea only had about 30 getting off. Single on-board customer-facing crew member checks and sells tickets then sells coffee and pot noodle-level food in the typically 30-60 minutes between stops. All long-life stuff only needing hot water.

Norrtag south of Umea on the X62 sets, which actually have not many more seats but were much fuller, had a much wider stock, I think some vac-pack microwave food, but again all long-life.

So there is a difference between high and lower wage countries in what can be done where demand is low.

Of course on RENFE you can be on a Media Distancia for 4 hours or more, the only trains on the route, and no catering whatsoever.

If Norrtåg wants more passengers they really need somebody to stop sj.se from listing the trains with a message saying that tickets aren't currently on sale. Privatisation didn't work out too well in Sweden to start with, and they've made a really awful mess of competition.

That said, it seems fairly normal on Swedish regional trains to have the same person checking tickets and then popping in to man the static buffet. That bit seems to work fairly well.

 

[FormerBritInMe]

And Greece is not doing much better. All Peloponnese railways gone, all cross border trafic gone, skeleton service everywhere but on Thessaloniki-Athens. I wonder why they wanted Florina-Bitola back, since they are not even capable to exploit their existing cross border lines.

There is the new line from Athens to Patras which when complete will improve access to the ferry port.

 

[duesselmartin]

There is the new line from Athens to Patras which when complete will improve access to the ferry port.

How many years is that now and when was the last construction worker seen. They have not even agreed yet on where the Patras station is going to be, whether above or under ground.

 

[AlastairFraser]

If that was in any way financially practicable, then the National Transport Authority would have been receiving 'nil' bids from the tenderers. I rather suspect that, even if the trolley service is well used (whatever that may actually mean) in terms of sales, and margin between cost of goods and revenue is not enough to pay for the staff member an the overheads plus profit.

I think that's likely to be due to the margins expected by the caterers - maybe the service is profitable, but barely, and a commercial caterer would think it an insufficient return on resources to provide the service.

 

[Killingworth]

NSB hasn't existed for 5 years or so now. SJ run the trains to Trondheim, and onwards to Bodø, and all the regional services from Trondheim. Vy, who are effectively the continuity state operator, run the route to Bergen and everything in the greater Oslo area (including trains to Gothenburg and Skien), and GoAhead run the trains to and around Stavanger.

In general they are still all using the same stock (almost all of this was new in past 10-15 years if you haven't been for a while). The Bergen route has gained some business-class style fully-flat seats on the night train though. Overall I'd say it's fine, and in fact the standard class seats are good - reasonably wide, good legroom and some level of recline. They also pretty universally have tray tables which can be pulled out to accomodate a laptop and power at the seats.

Norway fundamentally doesn't believe in first class though, so the best you'll do on most trains is a standard seat with free coffee. The free coffee is not good.

In terms of ticketing, everybody is using Entur for fulfilment. It's also used by a growing number of bus companies, and gives a really impressive ability to buy and manage all the tickets in-app (or via printable pdfs), as well as timetables, journey planning and live updates. Unfortunately GoAhead have a loyalty scheme if you book direct, and Vy sometimes seem to have better offers if you book direct, so you can't safely just use the Entur app/site for everything.

Prices outside of zonal areas are unfortunately quite high for advance purchases and absolutely scandalous for walk up fares, so you really need to plan ahead.

As you mention, journey times and frequencies outside greater Oslo aren't fantastic because there's a lot of very bendy single lines. This also makes reliability a problem, and connection guarantees are all a bit uncomfortable between the different operators. Most of the staff don't really know how to help if a connection is missed, although as far as I can tell they basically also don't care if you just get the next train, but of course that might be the next day.

The network is developing more quickly than anywhere else I can think of though, with new double track into Bergen just opened, big improvements into Drammen recently, a new lengthy tunnel to Ski and Gothenberg opened a year or so ago, and a long stretch of double track from the airport to Hamar via a straightened route which has been opening in stages and continues. Upcoming plans include further work north of Hamar towards Lillehammer, a tunnel even further out of Bergen along with more and longer loops further out, and double track to the Swedish border towards Gothenburg.

These interventions all tend to knock a casual 20-40 minutes off journey times and hugely improve reliability. I'd say that Bergen is probably now just about competitive with the plane, and certainly once they've finished the next tunnel it will be.

I haven't used continental railways sufficiently in recent years to form opinions, but I'd have Norwegian trains high up the list. Just back from Norway and found the Oslo-Bergen line excellent. As said above there's no first class but lots of space. Quite a good cafeteria that seemed to be open throughout. Journey time isn't spectacular, but the scenery is, reaching over 4,000 feet above sea level at Geilo.

The Flam - Myrdal line has been modernised since my first visit in 1964. They were using the original electric locomotives back then but their replacements have now been replaced.



Flytoget from Drammen into Oslo from the south-west takes only 19 minutes from city centre to the Airport. There's lots of work going on around the railway from Drammen into Oslo. The slower Vy train to the airport takes only 23 minutes and was full and standing for us. Once again catering was provided, self service. They don't use cash in Norway. I had none and saw little being tendered.


We also sampled the light railway from Bergen to the Airport - another full and standing success story.

With ample supplies of hydro-electricity, oil, gas - and fish, Norway has little difficulty paying for all this, although they're stalled on the long proposed short cut route from Honefoss to Sandvika, the Ringerike Line, that would cut 50 minutes off Oslo - Bergen train times.

 

[takno]

With ample supplies of hydro-electricity, oil, gas - and fish, Norway has little difficulty paying for all this, although they're stalled on the long proposed short cut route from Honefoss to Sandvika, the Ringerike Line, that would cut 50 minutes off Oslo - Bergen train times.

Honefoss to Sandvika needs to be done as a joint project with the road, and Statens Vegvesen aren't that excited by it for the moment. The national transport plan has prioritised a tunnel at the other end instead which will knock 40 minutes off the train and road journey, and hopefully reduce road accidents pretty significantly.

 

[JonasB]

If Norrtåg wants more passengers they really need somebody to stop sj.se from listing the trains with a message saying that tickets aren't currently on sale. Privatisation didn't work out too well in Sweden to start with, and they've made a really awful mess of competition.

That is not something they can blame on SJ, if SJ is not selling tickets to Norrtåg's trains, that means that Norrtåg have not opened those trains for sale yet.

It's also worth mentioning that the railway in Sweden hasn't been privatised in the same way it has in the UK, it has been deregulated.

That said, it seems fairly normal on Swedish regional trains to have the same person checking tickets and then popping in to man the static buffet. That bit seems to work fairly well.

That generally works well, although I guess that one reason it works well is that it can be pretty far between the stops.

 

[700007]

That's my take too.
An average train that runs is a little better than a nice train that doesn't, or makes you miss a connection or meeting.

It's exactly that. Whilst any 30+ minutes delay is annoying, people can understand if it happens once in a blue moon or on the rare occasion. But imagine how a German citizen feels when their train is so appallingly unreliable it almost never can run on time every day in most parts of the country. You can't predict how late the train is or plan your commute or life around this. And no amount of well cushioned seats or restaurant service can make up for that, after a while. You have to get the basics right, first.

Not mentioned so far: Iarnród Éireann. A few weeks ago, I travelled through Ireland by train and I was very satisfied with IE's service. The trains (and stations) were clean and they ran pretty much on time. Only the low frequency on some secondary lines is a drawback.

Agreed that IE is pretty solid for what they're worth and they get the job done. Their fares and service quality seem quite reasonable too for the distances travelled.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

it is really shocking how the former JZ network is canibalised. So much reliance on stock that is more than 40 years old. Railways in Bosnia, Kosovo, N Macedonia are almost dead, minimal investment in Serbia.

Bright spots:
Serbia has rebuilt the Belgrade-Novi Sad route (new tunnel, and bridge over the Danube), is in the middle of upgrading Novi Sad-Subotica, and has started upgrading Belgrade-Niš, all with Russian/Chinese money.
The connecting line in Hungary is also being upgraded but has run into funding problems.
I think the Niš-Dimitrovgrad (BG border) line is being electrified, closing the last wiring gap to Istanbul.
Closing the old central terminus in Belgrade was a loss, with trains now terminating at Centar further out.

Croatia has some new fast track Zagreb-Vinkovci where the 1990s war destroyed the line, though the remainder is still slow.
Bulgaria has upgraded its line to the Turkish border, and a major upgrade, involving stretches of new line, is in progress in Turkey on the Edirne-Istanbul section.
Slovenia has opened a new line to Koper to better serve the port there.

 

[D6130]

This article clarifies that the trolley service is planned to return across the network.

Irish Rail says catering service to return to Intercity lines by end of year

Catering services were suspended across network in March 2020 at start of Covid-19 pandemic

www.irishtimes.com

Has there been any word of a possible reintroduction of full meal service on the Dublin-Cork route?

 

[berneyarms]

Has there been any word of a possible reintroduction of full meal service on the Dublin-Cork route?

None whatsoever.

Just the trolley.

 

[D6130]

None whatsoever.

Just the trolley.

Shame....the meals on the Enterprise are very good for on-train catering and - pre-Covid - so were those on the Dublin-Cork service. I suppose, with the ever-deceasing journey times, there will be less demand than previously....although with the nearly four hour journey time from Tralee to Dublin in the morning - and back in the evening - there might have been a demand for breakfast and dinner, had a Mark 4 set been used instead of an ICR.

 

[paul_munich]

Dutch NS announced a ticket hike of 8,7% plus inflation today...
So a 2h trip from Amsterdam to beautiful Groningen, what is already 30€ today, would set you back 33€ plus 1€ for the chip card then...
But just in case there is no incident in Meppel, what would cut of two provinces from the rest of the country.

 

[Krokodil]

Dutch NS announced a ticket hike of 8,7% plus inflation today...
So a 2h trip from Amsterdam to beautiful Groningen, what is already 30€ today, would set you back 33€ plus 1€ for the chip card then...

Sounds like a bargain compared to what you'd pay in the UK. A similar distance might be around £45.