Unclaimed bag unloaded, person arrives too late

[Bletchleyite]

At the risk of going off topic, speaking hypothetically, what’s the position then if the train is crush loaded (I’ve been on that XC more than once!) and you arrive at a station with a turn up and go wheelchair user? Do you need to remove enough passengers to be able to get them on and off the train? This seems to be what legislation would suggest, but would seem to be less easy in the real world…

It's pretty rare for people not to be able to squash up enough to get a wheelchair user on. Though some may have to get off while they're loaded then back on again.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

It's pretty rare for people not to be able to squash up enough to get a wheelchair user on. Though some may have to get off while they're loaded then back on again.

I’ll take your word for it - I can’t remember the layout on a Voyager that well. I recall a guy with a Brompton between some seats that needed about 20 folks to work together so he could get it out - never mind get it off the train!

 

[Lewisham2221]

It doesn't help that nowadays every man and his dog needs to take a bulky, 4 wheeled, hard sided suitcase with them - when a small, soft sided holdall or backpack could do the job. People ability and/or willingness to stack luggage in an efficient manner is also often rather lacking.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Well, no, if you read the rest of my post I’ve explained how most solo travellers get around that. You take it with you or you ask someone to watch it. It isn’t rocket science and, as noted by others, most people manage not to have their items removed.

If you’re so paranoid that you daren’t leave your bag unattended for a few minutes, why would you entrust it to a complete stranger? For all you know, that person you’ve asked to watch your luggage could be a terrorist and could plant a bomb in your bag the minute your back was turned!

The risk of attack is currently “substantial” in the UK, meaning an attack is likely, ao there is a need to remain vigilant. Hence the railway needs to follow the recommendation of the security services, and indeed is required to by the DfT. It is they who mandate the “see it say it sorted” announcement, for example.

The UK terror threat level has always been either severe or substantial ever since the measures came into being, it’s never been low or moderate; indeed some would say that the “security services” deliberately exaggerate the threat level to justify their existence. In the real world, I reckon you’re about as likely to be abducted by aliens as you are to be the victim of a terror attack on a train in the UK.

 

[Deafdoggie]

We don’t know what the scenario was, but there is certainly no policy to remove luggage because people are wearing headphones, as you previously suggested.

Ultimately, if you don’t want your luggage removed, don’t leave it unattended. It really is that simple!



People occasionally do some strange things. On one of my trains from your local station, there was a bag left in the bike area fifteen mins before departure. It looked as though it had been left from the previous journey, and nobody claimed it when I asked in the carriage. The TM checked it and made several announcements and the person who owned it finally came forward just before we were about to leave it with the platform staff and depart for London. She had sat two carriages away from her bag despite the train being lightly loaded!

To be fair this is a very rare occurrence - most people know the score.

If that's the case, the owner has learned a harsh lesson, because there is good reason to be able to hear announcements. It could be that announcements are about unattended luggage, about catering facilities, or they could be about the train being diverted or its calling pattern being changed. Some may be repetitive and annoying but some may be rather important.

The railways actively promote relaxing and unwinding on your journey. Then you do and discover your luggage has been taken off because you've done what they advertised. What their adverts should be promoting is sitting there listening to endless banal pointless announcements for the rare occasion one that matters might be useful.

Never mind it might be someone like me who can't hear them anyway. I'm often aware there's an announcement but can't tell you what it is. Am I supposed to leap up each time find the TM and ask what it was? Never mind that there are TMs with very strong accents where it's hard for anyone to understand a word they said. Nevermind the PA system might not be working throughout the whole train.

The railways attitude is "we made an announcement. If you didn't hear it, that's your problem not ours. You really shouldn't bring luggage with you. Or, ideally, don't travel at all"

 

[Falcon1200]

Then you do and discover your luggage has been taken off because you've done what they advertised.

How often is luggage actually removed when its owner is still on the train, as opposed to being left behind? I would think on a tiny, tiny number of occasions, as otherwise we would surely have heard a lot more about it.

 

[Deafdoggie]

How often is luggage actually removed when its owner is still on the train, as opposed to being left behind? I would think on a tiny, tiny number of occasions, as otherwise we would surely have heard a lot more about it.

This is probably the only time. But rail staff are saying it could happen, so don't relax but be alert for all announcements. Even the endless tiresome ones. Because, just once, one might come along that you need to know.

Seems a bit "hearist" to me & anti-Deaf. But everyone else, pay attention and alert any Deaf people near by.

 

[computerSaysNo]

anti-Deaf

To be honest any manual announcement feels a bit discriminatory towards people who are hard of hearing as the message is never also relayed in text (correct me if I'm wrong on the "never" part bearing in mind I'm talking about manual announcements). Edit: I'm aware that in unusual situations a manual announcement is the best that can be done, but I don't think unattended luggage is an unusual situation, nor is e.g. advertising the buffet opening times and range of items sold.

For situations like discussed above I think there ought to be a short automated message (played in audio and text) to the effect of "avoid leaving items out of constant sight; if you do then leave today's date, your phone number, carriage/seat, and destination station on a visible tag on the items". That then gives on-train staff multiple ways to try to contact the owner if they need; if that fails then at least they know where the owner is getting off; and they know that the tag is up to date and not an old one left on from a previous journey.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

To be honest any manual announcement feels a bit discriminatory towards people who are hard of hearing as the message is never also relayed in text (correct me if I'm wrong on the "never" part bearing in mind I'm talking about manual announcements). For situations like discussed above I think there ought to be a short automated message (played in audio and text) to the effect of "avoid leaving items out of constant sight; if you do then leave today's date, your phone number, carriage/seat, and destination station on a visible tag on the items". That then gives on-train staff multiple ways to try to contact the owner if they need; if that fails then at least they know where the owner is getting off; and they know that the tag is up to date and not an old one left on from a previous journey.

Please, don't give the train companies ideas to introduce even more announcements! Without taking this thread off topic into another "too many announcements" one, the only things passengers need to know is what time the train leaves and where it's stopping. You should be free to do whatever you want with your luggage so long as it doesn't inconvenience your fellow travellers.

 

[Haywain]

so long as it doesn't inconvenience your fellow travellers.

Which is probably what happened with this case (pun not entirely intended).

 

[LowLevel]

It would help if all guards prefixed really important announcements (e.g. changed stopping patterns, terminating short) with something like “Can I have your attention please. This is an important announcement…” to differentiate it from the usual e-piffle we get. Some do (I’d bet you are one of them…) but it really ought to be emphasised in training.

I would agree with all of that and I do pretty much do it word for word - "may I have your attention please, this is important information". With the exception of imminent connections and platforms at hubs like Sheffield that are a bit spread out I usually let the auto Doris wibble away to itself these days unless I've got something important to add. On the plus side, on traction that allows me to do so (one of the few advantages of TrainFX) I do cut it off when it starts being silly and repeating itself over and over for 5 minutes.

I suspect the issue is that some folks' view of the importance of *all* of their announcements is not the same as that of their customers

 

[norbitonflyer]

At the risk of going off topic, speaking hypothetically, what’s the position then if the train is crush loaded (I’ve been on that XC more than once!) and you arrive at a station with a turn up and go wheelchair user?

Or indeed if you arrive at a station with az turn upand go wheelchair user and the space is already occupied by another wheelchair?

 

[Krokodil]

Or indeed if you arrive at a station with az turn upand go wheelchair user and the space is already occupied by another wheelchair?

Same situation as if you had passengers (with no reservation) left behind because the train is already full.

The key thing in both cases is that luggage should not be permitted to occupy space dedicated for the accommodation of people. So a suitcase blocking a seat is going to get turfed off just like a suitcase blocking a wheelchair space.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Same situation as if you had passengers (with no reservation) left behind because the train is already full.

The key thing in both cases is that luggage should not be permitted to occupy space dedicated for the accommodation of people. So a suitcase blocking a seat is going to get turfed off just like a suitcase blocking a wheelchair space.

Noone is saying luggage-or people-should stop a wheelchair user boarding. But it seems stupid to deny someone boarding and pay tem delay repay, or refund them, so the train can carry an empty space around.

 

[jon0844]

The last thing I would do is leave my mobile number and name together in public for some miscreant to copy and pass on! One of the ways of getting rid of spam recognising rubbish calls is that they have picked your number at random but have no idea of your name...
I might leave just a mobile phone number on it.

What are the chances that some random scam caller is going through people's luggage looking for names and phone numbers to call later?

If you think it's a non-zero chance, use a fake name on the label. As you say, most scammers are just calling random numbers/numbers in sequence so your number is never going to be secret.

There are also third party services you can use to tag bags, whereby you have an intermediary that is contacted or written to - who then contact you.

 

[43066]

If chucking off unattended luggage mid journey is the official policy this should be consistently applied and publicised, because theirs certainly a quite a large number of people who think it's fine to put their bag in the luluggage rack and then sit in an available seat, which may be a long distance from the rack or facing the other way. Lumo even makes you put your luggage in certain coaches, which may be not the one you reserved

You really are making a mountain out of a molehill here. In my experience the policy is consistently applied, and it’s very rarely necessary to remove baggage. There have been also been announcements about not leaving items unattended on the rail network for decades!

Once again the railway can’t win in the eyes of some. You appear to be advocating for more announcements, yet many posters on this thread are arguing that there are already too many.

If you’re so paranoid that you daren’t leave your bag unattended for a few minutes, why would you entrust it to a complete stranger? For all you know, that person you’ve asked to watch your luggage could be a terrorist and could plant a bomb in your bag the minute your back was turned!

It’s not about being paranoid, it’s just making sure nobody is worried that my luggage (if too bulky to take with me to the loo) is unattended. Otherwise, why on earth would I leave a bag containing my personal possessions, expensive iPad etc. where it can easily be nicked?

The UK terror threat level has always been either severe or substantial ever since the measures came into being, it’s never been low or moderate; indeed some would say that the “security services” deliberately exaggerate the threat level to justify their existence. In the real world, I reckon you’re about as likely to be abducted by aliens as you are to be the victim of a terror attack on a train in the UK.

It’s a little ironic that you’re accusing others of being paranoid while advancing the conspiracy theory that the security services are exaggerating the threat level.

Are you suggesting the railway should ignore the advice of the security services? Who in your opinion should they listen to when deciding on security measures, then?

 

[railfan99]

Are you suggesting the railway should ignore the advice of the security services? Who in your opinion should they listen to when deciding on security measures, then?

Commonsense comes into it.

I and others don't need to be reminded numerous times in say a two hour journey by annoying announcements that constantly parrot '...Sorted'. It's just noise, and an exercise in box ticking.

 

[xotGD]

As long as you pop to the loo in between stations, then clearly your stuff has not been left behind, as you are still on the train. Likewise, anyone trying to steal it would still be on the train - luggage thieves take their chances at station calls, not mid journey.

 

[renegademaster]

. In my experience the policy is consistently applied

I'm my experince, it isn't. I've left my bag in the luggage rack many a times, I'm frequently facing another way since it was the only seat left. Never have I heard a guard go through bags and check if the owners are still on.

 

[jon0844]

As long as you pop to the loo in between stations, then clearly your stuff has not been left behind, as you are still on the train. Likewise, anyone trying to steal it would still be on the train - luggage thieves take their chances at station calls, not mid journey.

Yes, if I was walking to the cafe/bar or going to the toilet, I'd only do so between stations where I know I can be back before the next stop. It's highly unlikely someone is going to attempt anything on the move.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

It’s a little ironic that you’re accusing others of being paranoid while advancing the conspiracy theory that the security services are exaggerating the threat level.

Are you suggesting the railway should ignore the advice of the security services? Who in your opinion should they listen to when deciding on security measures, then?

What a curious statement. Questioning the motives of the authorities doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, rather it means you're able to use your own common sense. The UK terror threat level has been "severe" or "critical" for nigh on twenty years, suggesting "an attack is highly likely", yet there hasn't been one on public transport since the 7/7 incidents in 2005. And given that those involved buses and tube trains, you could argue that there hasn't been an attack on the UK rail network since the IRA bombing campaigns of the 1990s, over 30 years ago!

That's why, as per my signature, I don't take a blind bit of notice of the safety and security announcements. As mentioned elsewhere on this thread, if someone's left a bag unattended, there's bound to be a perfectly innocent reason for it.

To get back to the OP's point, if a member of train crew took someone's bag off the train and offloaded it at Reading without their consent, they should be facing disciplinary action.

 

[signed]

I'd understood that this was indeed relating to luggage on trains (that's what I was referring to) - the notices I've seen over the years have suggested precisely this. I never leave luggage unattended on a station! But I have left luggage in the racks on a train in France without it being labelled, and have had no complaint for many many years.

There is a double standard between left luggage on trains and left luggage in stations (despite the advertised policy), and I suspect it's extremely clear why.
Left luggage in a running train can be to somone where they just stored it, despite being a immediate risk technically. Left luggage in stations however is immediately suspicious.

Some TM on TGV will admonish people for not labelling their luggage (I once did get a TM complaining about my untagged luggage, but it is a very small minority)

The official policy is below :

https://www.sncf-voyageurs.com/fr/voyagez-avec-nous/en-france/tgv-inoui/vos-bagages-et-consignes/

Quand un bagage dont le propriétaire n’est pas identifié est retrouvé, une annonce est diffusée en gare ou à bord. Si personne ne se manifeste, la procédure Vigipirate peut être activée.

When a bagage of which the owner is unknown is found, an announcement is broadcasted in the station or aboard. If nobody comes forward, the Vigipirate procedure can be activated.

 

[JamesT]

What a curious statement. Questioning the motives of the authorities doesn't make you a conspiracy theorist, rather it means you're able to use your own common sense. The UK terror threat level has been "severe" or "critical" for nigh on twenty years, suggesting "an attack is highly likely", yet there hasn't been one on public transport since the 7/7 incidents in 2005. And given that those involved buses and tube trains, you could argue that there hasn't been an attack on the UK rail network since the IRA bombing campaigns of the 1990s, over 30 years ago!

There was the Glasgow airport attack in 2007 and the Parsons Green tube bomb in 2017. A couple were jailed in 2015 for plotting an attack on the 10 year anniversary of 7/7. Plus presumably some we don’t hear about as the security services stop them in time.

 

[Krokodil]

I'm my experince, it isn't. I've left my bag in the luggage rack many a times, I'm frequently facing another way since it was the only seat left. Never have I heard a guard go through bags and check if the owners are still on.

Well a luggage rack is where you'd expect bags to be stowed. The presumption on this thread is that the one in the OP's incident must have been causing an obstruction.

yet there hasn't been one on public transport since the 7/7 incidents in 2005.

Another poster has listed some incidents which have happened since then. On top of those which were foiled because people were vigilant. I'll also add in the Manchester bombing which affected the operation of Victoria.

And given that those involved buses and tube trains, you could argue that there hasn't been an attack on the UK rail network since the IRA bombing campaigns of the 1990s

Yes, you could argue that. But then you could also argue that 2+2=5 and it would make almost as much sense.

To get back to the OP's point, if a member of train crew took someone's bag off the train and offloaded it at Reading without their consent, they should be facing disciplinary action.

Now you really are being ridiculous. If a member of staff deems that an unattended bag constitutes some form of hazard (whether a potential terror threat or merely blocking a doorway) - and attempts to locate the owner have failed - then they are quite right to remove it from the train.

Any manager who attempted to discipline someone for acting in the interest of passenger safety is a manager not fit to manage paperclips.

 

[AlterEgo]

If a member of staff deems that an unattended bag constitutes some form of hazard (whether a potential terror threat or merely blocking a doorway) - and attempts to locate the owner have failed - then they are quite right to remove it from the train.

If it's a terror threat - that is, you think it's a bomb, and people are at imminent risk - then you stop the train and evacuate it.

If it's an obstruction, then perhaps if it was literally too large to be legally carried you could remove it. But if it's just a bag which isn't stowed properly and not HOT, stow it.

 

[Krokodil]

If it's an obstruction, then perhaps if it was literally too large to be legally carried you could remove it. But if it's just a bag which isn't stowed properly and not HOT, stow it.

Stow it where?

 

[AlterEgo]

Stow it where?

Wherever it’s supposed to be stowed. The fact it’s unattended doesn’t mean it should be thrown off the train. You wouldn’t do that with an *attended* bag, within a customer’s allowance, which couldn’t be stowed.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Wherever it’s supposed to be stowed. The fact it’s unattended doesn’t mean it should be thrown off the train. You wouldn’t do that with an *attended* bag, within a customer’s allowance, which couldn’t be stowed.

Indeed. In any other context, taking someone's possessions without their consent while their back is turned constitutes theft. Hence my suggestion that the member of staff involved in this incident should face disciplinary action.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Indeed. In any other context, taking someone's possessions without their consent while their back is turned constitutes theft. Hence my suggestion that the member of staff involved in this incident should face disciplinary action.

It seems to me that Byelaw 2 gives rail staff the power to ask for items of luggage to be moved or, if there is no apparent response or cooperation, to remove the item(s).
Sorry, can’t quote from mobile.
The railway, by virtue of its statutory background and regulations is an “other context”.
There is no intention to permanently ‘take’ a passenger’s possessions.

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed. In any other context, taking someone's possessions without their consent while their back is turned constitutes theft. Hence my suggestion that the member of staff involved in this incident should face disciplinary action.

The important thing here is "in any other context" - no, it does not constitute a theft, although it has inconvenienced a customer.