Why do LNER not seem to understand that any delay means you can choose not to travel and receive a refund?

[Wolfie]

TOCs and ticket retailers cannot hold customers strictly to letter of a contract when it suits them and then, in the next breath, seek to apply "the spirit" and not the letter when that suits them. That is not how contract law works.

 

[therailwayking]

Precisely.

 

[robbeech]

TOCs and ticket retailers cannot hold customers strictly to letter of a contract when it suits them and then, in the next breath, seek to apply "the spirit" and not the letter when that suits them. That is not how contract law works.

They can, because they do, every single day and 99 times out of a hundred they get away with it and on the 1 in 100 times they don’t get away with it they just pay out the few quid and the customer goes away happy. It’s exactly the same as the pay when challenged attitude many passengers have, never buy a ticket and every so often you’ll get a ticket check and the guard will just sell you one.

 

[TUC]

I am gaming the system - Yes. I am allowed to do it.
Works both ways - Like when they keep my money for trains that are not late and I do not take.
LNER are signed up to the NRCoC and should abide by it.

It is people like you who give provisions on refunds and delay compensation a bad name, and make it more difficult for people with genuine claims based on actual inconvenience to be believed. There is a difference between what is legally allowable and what is morally right. Anyone who admits they are 'gaming' fails that test.

 

[The exile]

Surely that would be acceptable anyway.

The decision to not travel is not necessarily made on the platform 30 seconds before departure.

Say I intend (and perhaps have a reservation for) the 0800 from Baxenden to Manchester for work purposes. Sat at home at 0730 I check my phone and see that the train is cancelled. As a result I decide not to travel (by train anyway) and, whilst fresh in my mind, refund the ticket. A similar argument could also be made for delayed trains, depending upon how much opportunity there may be to make up any lost time or insert an extra train to part cover the cancelled service. Further, if the train was cancelled the night before, I may well seek a refund the night before. If the train was subsequently reinstated that may raise some queries.

That last sentence is the key one. Until the booked departure time has passed you cannot know for 100% certain that your train has been delayed. Within the last few months I have known trains shown as up to 15 minutes late depart on time (due to skipping intermediate stops) and a cancelled train also depart on time (I assume a hastily arranged crew swap).

 

[MrJeeves]

Within the last few months I have known trains shown as up to 15 minutes late depart on time (due to skipping intermediate stops) and a cancelled train also depart on time (I assume a hastily arranged crew swap).

But having forewarning of such a delay means you could make alternative arrangements to get yourself to your destination.

If I'm told my train is cancelled, and then it randomly gets reinstated, I am still entitled to a refund. I may have cancelled or rescheduled whatever plans I had, or started a bus journey to my destination in the meantime! The same applies to delays, too.

 

[Wolfie]

It is people like you who give provisions on refunds and delay compensation a bad name, and make it more difficult for people with genuine claims based on actual inconvenience to be believed. There is a difference between what is legally allowable and what is morally right. Anyone who admits they are 'gaming' fails that test.

Re your last sentence you mean, as @robbeech doubtless correctly points out, the TOCs routinely do? Or is your post effectively industry apologia just criticising consumers who use their legal rights?

But having forewarning of such a delay means you could make alternative arrangements to get yourself to your destination.

If I'm told my train is cancelled, and then it randomly gets reinstated, I am still entitled to a refund. I may have cancelled or rescheduled whatever plans I had, or started a bus journey to my destination in the meantime! The same applies to delays, too.

Absolutely right. If a TOC was dumb enough to try to insist that you had to wait until after the scheduled departure time before you reviewed your options they'd be laughed out of Court.

 

[The exile]

But having forewarning of such a delay means you could make alternative arrangements to get yourself to your destination.

If I'm told my train is cancelled, and then it randomly gets reinstated, I am still entitled to a refund. I may have cancelled or rescheduled whatever plans I had, or started a bus journey to my destination in the meantime! The same applies to delays, too.

Isn’t the wording “if your train is delayed” not, “if your train is reported as delayed”?

 

[Wolfie]

Isn’t the wording “if your train is delayed” not, “if your train is reported as delayed”?

That is the sort of response which encourages me to sue the rail industry every time. It will have the same impact on others. Perhaps when they have to employ significantly more in-house legal expertise the light might dawn....

Oh and l'm pretty sure that such a stance is contrary to national consumer legislation so good luck in trying to die in that ditch...

 

[AlterEgo]

Quite often my plans change so I will not need to take that train but I will always check if its delayed or not to see if I can claim the refund.
The rules do not forbit this approach.

Indeed they do not, but thanks to you - and others - raising it on a public forum, and acknowledging the train's delay was not, in fact, the cause of you not using the ticket, we can expect that to change sometime.

Some types of grey practices are best kept under your hat.

 

[Wolfie]

Indeed they do not, but thanks to you - and others - raising it on a public forum, and acknowledging the train's delay was not, in fact, the cause of you not using the ticket, we can expect that to change sometime.

Some types of grey practices are best kept under your hat.

That is all sadly true.

 

[akm]

It is people like you who give provisions on refunds and delay compensation a bad name, and make it more difficult for people with genuine claims based on actual inconvenience to be believed. There is a difference between what is legally allowable and what is morally right. Anyone who admits they are 'gaming' fails that test.

Amazing. Perhaps you, or some other person with access to the Magic Big Book Of Correct Morals, could provide the rest of us mere mortals with an annotated version of the NRCoT etc, to let us know which provisions are 'morally right' to exercise, and which are merely 'legally allowable' (and therefore 'morally wrong' to exercise?)

 

[The exile]

That is the sort of response which encourages me to sue the rail industry every time. It will have the same impact on others. Perhaps when they have to employ significantly more in-house legal expertise the light might dawn....

Oh and l'm pretty sure that such a stance is contrary to national consumer legislation so good luck in trying to die in that ditch...

May be just remember that each time you have done this you have possibly deprived someone else of the opportunity to travel at the fare you paid. In a genuine case of serious delay that’s unavoidable - but the morality of buying a ticket with the option of cancelling at the last minute because a train is 60 seconds late somewhere on its journey is questionable, to say the least.

Amazing. Perhaps you, or some other person with access to the Magic Big Book Of Correct Morals, could provide the rest of us mere mortals with an annotated version of the NRCoT etc, to let us know which provisions are 'morally right' to exercise, and which are merely 'legally allowable' (and therefore 'morally wrong' to exercise?)

Often simple - ask yourself “what was intended by this?” Of course there will be grey areas (otherwise lawyers would all starve)

 

[Deafdoggie]

Often simple - ask yourself “what was intended by this?” Of course there will be grey areas (otherwise lawyers would all starve)

It was intended that if a train is delayed you can get a refund.

The train is delayed, the OP gets a refund. Seems cut & dried to me.

 

[RJ]

If the people in charge of policymaking cared about this, they’d prevent it. They don’t care. So why does anybody else care? So what if someone has found a legitimate way to get a free refund? The rules allow for it.

I frequently get people requesting refunds if trains are delayed by a couple of minutes, I give them their money and send them on their way, no questions asked.

 

[therailwayking]

If the people in charge of policymaking cared about this, they’d prevent it. They don’t care. So why does anybody else care? So what if someone has found a legitimate way to get a free refund? The rules allow for it.

I frequently get people requesting refunds if trains are delayed by a couple of minutes, I give them their money and send them on their way, no questions asked.

Absolutely.
Good for you.
You don't happen to work for GWR do you?
They seem to have their heads screwed on there.

 

[RJ]

Absolutely.
Good for you.
You don't happen to work for GWR do you?
They seem to have their heads screwed on there.

I don't work for GWR but where I work, local instructions are to be pro-customer and offer a standard of service quite some way beyond the levels specified in the COT and Passenger Charter. There's no interest in unnecessary conflicts with customers.

 

[Mark J]

I don't work for GWR but where I work, local instructions are to be pro-customer and offer a standard of service quite some way beyond the levels specified in the COT and Passenger Charter. There's no interest in unnecessary conflicts with customers.

Definitely not XC then!

 

[Wolfie]

Definitely not XC then!

XC, as far as l know, don't have any station ticket offices.

 

[Starmill]

XC, as far as l know, don't have any station ticket offices.

The comment you're responding to reads to me as if the person knew that, and it's tongue-in-cheek.

 

[Wolfie]

The comment you're responding to reads to me as if the person knew that, and it's tongue-in-cheek.

Very possibly so and if so my bad....

At least l wasn't rude lol....