Chiltern 165s to Birmingham

[MerlinRail 804]

Recently, I’ve seen an increasing number of 165s running Chiltern’s London - Birmingham services, sometimes coupled to a 168, and sometimes just 165s. Is there a specific reason for this or just glitches and errors? If it’s to do with availability, why not use the 168s which end up on services such as Oxford or Wycombe sometimes?

 

[childwallblues]

165s do operate to Birmingham Moor Street usually on stopping services from Leamington Spa. They also operate the Leamington Spa to Stratford-Upon-Avon service although I have seen Class 168/3 units on the latter on a number of occasions.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

165s do operate to Birmingham Moor Street usually on stopping services from Leamington Spa. They also operate the Leamington Spa to Stratford-Upon-Avon service although I have seen Class 168/3 units on the latter on a number of occasions.

Those ones are okay for 165s, I’ve just noticed more and more London services being 165s when they shouldn’t

 

[BlueLeanie]

Aren't Chiltern so short of stock that they are having to use any serviceable unit to operate a service?

 

[150219]

Recently, I’ve seen an increasing number of 165s running Chiltern’s London - Birmingham services, sometimes coupled to a 168, and sometimes just 165s. Is there a specific reason for this or just glitches and errors? If it’s to do with availability, why not use the 168s which end up on services such as Oxford or Wycombe sometimes?

Glitches or errors for substituting 168s for 165s or LHCS services don't tend to occur. There's no specific reason, but can be availability of the diagrammed train type/length or disruption that's meant the next diagrammed working has been missed; with which the choice is either run it late or run it as close to time as possible with something else.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Glitches or errors for substituting 168s for 165s or LHCS services don't tend to occur. There's no specific reason, but can be availability of the diagrammed train type/length or disruption that's meant the next diagrammed working has been missed; with which the choice is either run it late or run it as close to time as possible with something else.

It seems to be a pretty much daily occurrence; I was on a BMO - MYB 165 + 168 today. Surely there would be enough trains on a Sunday for 165s to not be on those services, and any day, I always see 168s on Oxford, Wycombe, or Aylesbury services when 165s would be fine. The only explanation I can think of would be a 168 not being ready in time to start a Birmingham diagram but becoming available later.

 

[BlueLeanie]

It seems to be a pretty much daily occurrence; I was on a BMO - MYB 165 + 168 today. Surely there would be enough trains on a Sunday for 165s to not be on those services, and any day, I always see 168s on Oxford, Wycombe, or Aylesbury services when 165s would be fine. The only explanation I can think of would be a 168 not being ready in time to start a Birmingham diagram but becoming available later.

They are busy on a Sunday!

Should see the crowds boarding at Bicester Village at weekends.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

They are busy on a Sunday!

Should see the crowds boarding at Bicester Village at weekends.

They should still be 165s as scheduled

 

[12LDA28C]

It seems to be a pretty much daily occurrence; I was on a BMO - MYB 165 + 168 today. Surely there would be enough trains on a Sunday for 165s to not be on those services, and any day, I always see 168s on Oxford, Wycombe, or Aylesbury services when 165s would be fine. The only explanation I can think of would be a 168 not being ready in time to start a Birmingham diagram but becoming available later.

The line to Oxford is a 100mph railway. Why would a 75mph Class 165 be 'fine' to go to Oxford but not Birmingham? 168s are diagrammed for the majority of Birmingham services that aren't LHCS but if Chiltern are short of 168s for any reason, would you prefer they cancel the train, or substitute a 165 instead?

Bear in mind also that the Class 168 fleet has just started a refurbishment program with two units currently out of traffic for that, as well as another 168 currently out of traffic after being involved in a fatality.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

The line to Oxford is a 100mph railway. Why would a 75mph Class 165 be 'fine' to go to Oxford but not Birmingham?

Most Oxford services are timetabled as 165s

Bear in mind also that the Class 168 fleet has just started a refurbishment program with two units currently out of traffic for that, as well as another 168 currently out of traffic after being involved in a fatality.

That explains some of it.
Do you know which three units are out of service?

 

[D7666]

In the light of this thread I did a trawl of last weeks weekdays RTT for 165+168 combos on MYB Birmingham.

This is something I would go and do - in the 165.

I found none.

Are you sure this is as common as being alleged ? Weekdays ? Weekends ? Special events (eg Wembley) ? Engieering work (either Chilterns or other route where Chiltern is running) ?

Cite trains please.

RTT maybe wrong of course - but can also be resolved bu citing examples.

 

[12LDA28C]

Most Oxford services are timetabled as 165s

Which is mostly down to the ability to substitute a 165 on a 168 diagram with no loss in running time, not necessarily because it's more appropriate for the route or better for the passengers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Aug 2024 ==

That explains some of it.
Do you know which three units are out of service?

Suffice to say they are all four-car units and that's before any more 168s are out of traffic undergoing repair or routine maintenance.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

In the light of this thread I did a trawl of last weeks weekdays RTT for 165+168 combos on MYB Birmingham.

This is something I would go and do - in the 165.

I found none.

Are you sure this is as common as being alleged ?

Cite trains please.

I’ll admit “daily occurance” was an exaggeration.
I was on one yesterday, and saw one the day before. My last time on chiltern
before that was a few hours at Gerrards Cross, and I saw one, plus two 165s instead of a silver set.
All normal days with normal service AFAIK.
Screenshots attached (hopefully!)

 

[cm39275]

Most Oxford services are timetabled as 165s


That explains some of it.
Do you know which three units are out of service?

I believe 168001 and 168003 are both currently at Crewe for refurbishment

 

[Liam L]

’ve just noticed more and more London services being 165s when they shouldn’t

I'm sure the traveling public won't really mind that their train is a 165 instead of the usual 168 (or sliver set), It's better than no train at all at the end of the day.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

I'm sure the traveling public won't really mind that their train is a 165 instead of the usual 168 (or sliver set), It's better than no train at all at the end of the day.

Yeah that is probably the thought process

 

[david1212]

I'm sure the traveling public won't really mind that their train is a 165 instead of the usual 168 (or sliver set), It's better than no train at all at the end of the day.

Taking your second statement first while true passengers may well mind for several reasons including arriving late when a service timed for 100mph stock is restricted to 75mph, partly 3+2 seating and less comfortable, no air conditioning ( The air conditioning on the 168 sets is getting less reliable but hopefully the refurbishment will resolve this ).

 

[12LDA28C]

Taking your second statement first while true passengers may well mind for several reasons including arriving late when a service timed for 100mph stock is restricted to 75mph, partly 3+2 seating and less comfortable, no air conditioning ( The air conditioning on the 168 sets is getting less reliable but hopefully the refurbishment will resolve this ).

The 165s have air conditioning.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Most Oxford services are timetabled as 165s

They didn't used to be, of course. From the spur's opening up until around the time of the pandemic, there was something like one or two services a day either worked by a pair of 165s or a 172. Then there was the daily 68 of course. And pretty much everything else for the whole day was solid half-hourly 168s.

I noticed they'd changed to almost all 165s recently and created this thread to enquire about it:

Chiltern Oxford stock

Why did Chiltern's Oxfords go from being a 99% 168 operation (there was I think one daily 165/172 but aside from that it was very rare) to being almost exclusively operated by pairs of 165s? This seems like quite a major downgrade, and strange seeing as so many more 168s seem to be popping up on...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[MerlinRail 804]

They didn't used to be, of course. From the spur's opening up until around the time of the pandemic, there was something like one or two services a day either worked by a pair of 165s or a 172. Then there was the daily 68 of course. And pretty much everything else for the whole day was solid half-hourly 168s.

I noticed they'd changed to almost all 165s recently and created this thread to enquire about it:

Chiltern Oxford stock

Why did Chiltern's Oxfords go from being a 99% 168 operation (there was I think one daily 165/172 but aside from that it was very rare) to being almost exclusively operated by pairs of 165s? This seems like quite a major downgrade, and strange seeing as so many more 168s seem to be popping up on...

www.railforums.co.uk

I remember those days - the time when chiltern did the frequency thing!

 

[12LDA28C]

I remember those days - the time when chiltern did the frequency thing!

Not sure what you mean by this. Chiltern still run 2tph to Oxford.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Not sure what you mean by this. Chiltern still run 2tph to Oxford.

They used to run more services overall

 

[12LDA28C]

They used to run more services overall

Indeed but in line with many other TOCs, services have been reduced since Covid in an attempt to reduce operating costs to counteract a shortfall in farebox revenue. Whether that approach continues to be appropriate is open to debate.

 

[BlueLeanie]

Indeed but in line with many other TOCs, services have been reduced since Covid in an attempt to reduce operating costs to counteract a shortfall in farebox revenue. Whether that approach continues to be appropriate is open to debate.

Approximately one million passengers a year visiting their number one corporate partner at Bicester.

Chiltern won't really be able to compete with Oxford/Oxford Parkway passengers to/from London anymore. They take almost twice as long, and noisy diesel units all the way. Whereas GWR it'll be silent running for 75% of the journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern won't really be able to compete with Oxford/Oxford Parkway passengers to/from London anymore. They take almost twice as long, and noisy diesel units all the way. Whereas GWR it'll be silent running for 75% of the journey.

They could compete on price, but realistically it's more about connectivity between the likes of Wycombe and Oxford (formerly either a bus-only journey, a long one via London or just drive as most people probably did) rather than a cheap way to London. There's really no need to price people off GWR now it has plenty of capacity most of the time.

 

[philosopher]

Taking your second statement first while true passengers may well mind for several reasons including arriving late when a service timed for 100mph stock is restricted to 75mph, partly 3+2 seating and less comfortable, no air conditioning ( The air conditioning on the 168 sets is getting less reliable but hopefully the refurbishment will resolve this ).

Given the Class 165 trains have a max speed of 75mph, are they able to keep to the timetable if they used on the Birmingham services?

Indeed but in line with many other TOCs, services have been reduced since Covid in an attempt to reduce operating costs to counteract a shortfall in farebox revenue. Whether that approach continues to be appropriate is open to debate.

Chiltern do seem to have cut back more than other operators though since Covid. This probably reflects that their commuter market is more likely on WFH than other operators but perhaps is also due to the DFT not really wanting Chiltern to compete with GWR and Avanti on the Oxford and West Midlands routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern do seem to have cut back more than other operators though since Covid. This probably reflects that their commuter market is more likely on WFH than other operators but perhaps is also due to the DFT not really wanting Chiltern to compete with GWR and Avanti on the Oxford and West Midlands routes.

Also a shortage of units, which are better concentrated on the highly loading services (i.e. the core outersuburban and middle distance market) than taking a few people, bicycles and dogs from Oxford to Marylebone so they can save 50p.

That they often can't even spare a few 2-cars for the Met line on Wembley days shows just how short they are.

 

[Liam L]

no air conditioning ( The air conditioning on the 168 sets is getting less reliable but hopefully the refurbishment will resolve this ).

The 165s do have air conditioning.

 

[12LDA28C]

Approximately one million passengers a year visiting their number one corporate partner at Bicester.

Chiltern won't really be able to compete with Oxford/Oxford Parkway passengers to/from London anymore. They take almost twice as long, and noisy diesel units all the way. Whereas GWR it'll be silent running for 75% of the journey.

Bicester Village visitor numbers are down by 20%. Also as has been mentioned numerous times, Chiltern were initially competing against GWR between Oxford and London with journey times of just over an hour between the two cities. However since Covid with Chiltern serving more intermediate stops leading to increased journey times, that is no longer the case and hasn't been for the last couple of years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2024 ==

The 165s do have air conditioning.

See post #18

 

[Meerkat]

Approximately one million passengers a year visiting their number one corporate partner at Bicester.

Chiltern won't really be able to compete with Oxford/Oxford Parkway passengers to/from London anymore. They take almost twice as long, and noisy diesel units all the way. Whereas GWR it'll be silent running for 75% of the journey.

Parkway is presumably a lot easier for many than trying to get to Oxford station though?