Carousel Buses (Go-Ahead group)

[Deerfold]

I heard that demand on the departures is quite good.

I'm not quite sure what that means.

 

[PeterC]

I'm not quite sure what that means.

From the context I assumed departures towards Hemel from Chesham Broadway. I can't say that I have ever noticed this.

 

[stevieinselby]

800 completely wiped… can’t help but feel for the residents on that section who have been ridded of a direct service to Marlow and Wycombe.

I’m only assuming Carousel didn’t want to waste resources with some competition against Reading Buses.

I would be surprised if there were any significant numbers travelling from Caversham and Shiplake to Marlow and High Wycombe – and the fact that they have cut the direct service suggests Carousel don't think there are either. For Shiplake, the main destinations will be Henley and Reading – for suburbs of Reading it's unlikely that anywhere other than Reading itself specifically merits a direct service, even bearing in mind travel patterns will have been shaped by established services. And for any occasional passengers who are making that journey, the improved frequency of the 850 will make the connection at Henley less of a nuisance.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I would be surprised if there were any significant numbers travelling from Caversham and Shiplake to Marlow and High Wycombe – and the fact that they have cut the direct service suggests Carousel don't think there are either. For Shiplake, the main destinations will be Henley and Reading – for suburbs of Reading it's unlikely that anywhere other than Reading itself specifically merits a direct service, even bearing in mind travel patterns will have been shaped by established services. And for any occasional passengers who are making that journey, the improved frequency of the 850 will make the connection at Henley less of a nuisance.

The 800 is the only practical connection between Reading and High Wycombe (Reading to Bourne End on the train, then a bus into HW is possible, but the waiting time between connections makes it longer than the direct bus, which already is a trek!).
The 850 that remains takes even longer at 1hr45, and will pretty much push all the longer traffic onto the Thames Valley's crowded roads (or the traffic will full stop disappear).
This is why 1 800 an hour would make sense to mop up that traffic, even if it had to run over Reading Bridge (instead of through central Caversham), and then express north of Henley via the A4130 to the A404 at Hurley and then straight down to Wycombe to make it viable (you could time it for around 1h10).
Henley to Marlow and Wycombe would still have 2 850s through from Reading via Twyford.

 

[greenline712]

It is not always possible to design a timetable that meets every demand. Given that the overall (and perceived) demand is for 3 BPH on Mondays-Fridays along the full route, the next decision is what to do with Henley-Reading. Every 40 minutes on each leg? 1 BPH via 800 will give an unbalanced 20/40 frequency on 850; and vice versa of course.

Now consider the Saturday timetable, which is 2 BPH overall . . . trying to match that to MF timings will be awkward. The "upside", by going with the 850 route every day, is that Twyford now gets a Sunday service !!

Bearing in mind that Reading are now running a new 28, at a good frequency, overall the new service pattern seems to be the best possible. It is clear, understandable and unambiguous. It is longer, but gives better journey possibilities. Carousel / Oxford aren't known for coming up with duff ideas . . . time to wait and see.

Just a brief comment about Route 1 and loadings on departures from Hemel Hempstead towards Chesham . . . I'd expect most of those passengers to be travelling as far as Bovingdon only. For sure there will be some through passengers to and across Chesham, but in my experience only a handful. Not enough to contemplate doubling the frequency; which, given the Chartridge trial, would denude Pond Park of half of its service !!

 

[stevieinselby]

The 800 is the only practical connection between Reading and High Wycombe (Reading to Bourne End on the train, then a bus into HW is possible, but the waiting time between connections makes it longer than the direct bus, which already is a trek!).
The 850 that remains takes even longer at 1hr45, and will pretty much push all the longer traffic onto the Thames Valley's crowded roads (or the traffic will full stop disappear).
This is why 1 800 an hour would make sense to mop up that traffic, even if it had to run over Reading Bridge (instead of through central Caversham), and then express north of Henley via the A4130 to the A404 at Hurley and then straight down to Wycombe to make it viable (you could time it for around 1h10).
Henley to Marlow and Wycombe would still have 2 850s through from Reading via Twyford.

The 800 takes 1h30, the 850 takes 1h40, which is a small difference over a long journey – and with the frequency increased from every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes, the effective average journey time has only increased by 5 minutes because passengers don't have as long to wait. Very unlikely that this minor change will see many people abandoning the bus.

 

[Mgameing123]

The 800 takes 1h30, the 850 takes 1h40, which is a small difference over a long journey – and with the frequency increased from every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes, the effective average journey time has only increased by 5 minutes because passengers don't have as long to wait. Very unlikely that this minor change will see many people abandoning the bus.

It’s faster to take the X74 to Slough then take the train to Reading taking the hella slow 800/850.

 

[PeterC]

It’s faster to take the X74 to Slough then take the train to Reading taking the hella slow 800/850.

On the other hand the train costs rather more than £2, nor does it accept ENCTS.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It’s faster to take the X74 to Slough then take the train to Reading taking the hella slow 800/850.

Not by much. Next departure

• 1529 Reading to Slough 1551
• Walk to bus stop
• 1606 Slough to Wycombe 1702

1h32 and £12 more expensive to save 8 mins?

 

[Mgameing123]

Not by much. Next departure

• 1529 Reading to Slough 1551
• Walk to bus stop
• 1606 Slough to Wycombe 1702

1h32 and £12 more expensive to save 8 mins?

My point is just that it’s insane that I would be able to save time by going via Slough than it is to take a direct bus.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

My point is just that it’s insane that I would be able to save time by going via Slough than it is to take a direct bus.

Quite frankly with the road between Marlow, Menmenham, Henley and then either route to Reading, you're going to have a less than swift journey anyway. It's an hour in the car.

With limited end to end traffic, and the logical traffic generators being Marlow and Henley in the main, there's not much you can do. Even the 800 is 1h30.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The 800 takes 1h30, the 850 takes 1h40, which is a small difference over a long journey – and with the frequency increased from every 30 minutes to every 20 minutes, the effective average journey time has only increased by 5 minutes because passengers don't have as long to wait. Very unlikely that this minor change will see many people abandoning the bus.

Combined with the connection and the unreliability of the A321 between Wargrave and Henley, it will mean quite a few users from the north side of Reading to Marlow/Wycombe (as well as the town centre) will drive. There is another alternative though - there was a 2020 Heathrow to High Wycombe proposal from First Bus I think, via Slough, Maidenhead and the A404 I believe.

If you redesigned this to start at Maidenhead station, with stops at St Mark's Hospital, Berks College of Agriculture/BCA in Burchett's Green (a lot of students come from all over the three country border areas and access from Maidenhead station would be very useful), High Wycombe Coachway (for onward connections round High Wycombe) and finally terminate it at High Wycombe Eden bus station.

The route would have a running time of around 35-40 mins with contingency, add the train time of 12 mins from Reading to Maidenhead and a connection is possible within a hour with a decent frequency of every 30 mins, a significant improvement on current public transport options. It would also have the significant benefit of connecting BCA with a more regular public transport option, and also the access to High Wycombe Coachway means a link into frequent direct Gatwick/Oxford and rural Oxon coach services.

 

[Mgameing123]

Quite frankly with the road between Marlow, Menmenham, Henley and then either route to Reading, you're going to have a less than swift journey anyway. It's an hour in the car.

With limited end to end traffic, and the logical traffic generators being Marlow and Henley in the main, there's not much you can do. Even the 800 is 1h30.

Surely time can be saved. Perhaps stop using Caversham bridge in favour of the B3345 bridge and between Marlow and High Wycombe use the dual carriageway.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Surely time can be saved. Perhaps stop using Caversham bridge in favour of the B3345 bridge and between Marlow and High Wycombe use the dual carriageway.

I've proposed an express 800 that uses Reading Bridge (what you're referring to as the B3345 bridge), and a large section of the A404. This is only going to save some time though, and you need to make sure the Marlow to Wycombe local traffic is served by a stopper route at least (it's a major flow for commuting, leisure and education).

That is the partial issue with using the A404 between Marlow and Wycombe, instead of the road past Marlow Bottom, as you miss out the Rebellion Brewery with a popular taproom, and the 3.5k residents in Marlow Bottom village.

An express route Maidenhead or Reading to High Wycombe (with rail through ticketing) is worth looking at though!

 

[Deerfold]

Combined with the connection and the unreliability of the A321 between Wargrave and Henley, it will mean quite a few users from the north side of Reading to Marlow/Wycombe (as well as the town centre) will drive. There is another alternative though - there was a 2020 Heathrow to High Wycombe proposal from First Bus I think, via Slough, Maidenhead and the A404 I believe.

That seems unlikely, now. First used to have 4 buses an hour from Heathrow to Maidenhead, with at least an hourly service nearly 20 hours a day, but no longer runs anything from Heathrow to Maidenhead and only runs one an hour Maidenhead to Slough with no early or late service.

Meanwhile, there's 3 coaches and 2 buses an hour between Heathrow and High Wycombe by other routes.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That seems unlikely, now. First used to have 4 buses an hour from Heathrow to Maidenhead, with at least an hourly service nearly 20 hours a day, but no longer runs anything from Heathrow to Maidenhead and only runs one an hour Maidenhead to Slough with no early or late service.

Meanwhile, there's 3 coaches and 2 buses an hour between Heathrow and High Wycombe by other routes.

1.) While I accept the point about First's contraction in Berks, this is partly due to Thames Valley's takeover of a lot of routes in the Maidenhead area, and doesn't prevent First running a Maidenhead - High Wycombe express service (as they have experience running the X74 into Wycombe too).

2.) This wouldn't be primarily to connect Heathrow and Wycombe - it's more a fast connection connecting two densely populated section of the Thames Valley for commuters, schoolchildren/college students and leisure.

 

[Deerfold]

1.) While I accept the point about First's contraction in Berks, this is partly due to Thames Valley's takeover of a lot of routes in the Maidenhead area, and doesn't prevent First running a Maidenhead - High Wycombe express service (as they have experience running the X74 into Wycombe too).

2.) This wouldn't be primarily to connect Heathrow and Wycombe - it's more a fast connection connecting two densely populated section of the Thames Valley for commuters, schoolchildren/college students and leisure.

I don't remember First running more than one local service in Maidenhead. It doesn't stop them running anything else from Maidenhead (though it's not handy for any First depots if it's not running through).

First don't seem keen on anything innovative in that area - certainly less so than Reading Buses and Carousel.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I don't remember First running more than one local service in Maidenhead. It doesn't stop them running anything else from Maidenhead (though it's not handy for any First depots if it's not running through).

First don't seem keen on anything innovative in that area - certainly less so than Reading Buses and Carousel.

Fair points.
Something else I'd like to point out though - Maidenhead station is only 15 mins driving time from Slough First depot, so 30 mins dead time running to and from the depot isn't necessarily terrible.

 

[Parebunks]

There is another alternative though - there was a 2020 Heathrow to High Wycombe proposal from First Bus I think, via Slough, Maidenhead and the A404 I believe.

This was from Carousel themselves, the X50. The start date was about a week after the first lockdown started, very unfortunate timing. It was to use the coaches displaced from the X90 Oxford-London stopping, but by the time COVID had abated and it would have been possible again, those vehicles had already been cascaded to Go North East in return for nine streetdecks for Oxford-Abingdon.

 

[AlastairFraser]

This was from Carousel themselves, the X50. The start date was about a week after the first lockdown started, very unfortunate timing. It was to use the coaches displaced from the X90 Oxford-London stopping, but by the time COVID had abated and it would have been possible again, those vehicles had already been cascaded to Go North East in return for nine streetdecks for Oxford-Abingdon.

Ah thank you, I knew someone would remember. It's proof that it is somewhat a viable route to try.

 

[jackgwycombe]

1.) While I accept the point about First's contraction in Berks, this is partly due to Thames Valley's takeover of a lot of routes in the Maidenhead area, and doesn't prevent First running a Maidenhead - High Wycombe express service (as they have experience running the X74 into Wycombe too).

After the success of the X74 service, First did introduce an express service called the X9 between Maidenhead and High Wycombe (2014 I think). It was a good idea but I don't think it was marketed well so lasted less than a year.

With the RBWM (Royal Borough of Windsor & Maidenhead) council tenders are this year, there is a chance Carousel could gain some routes in Maidenhead which would be nice to see. Think its unlikely considering they just picked up the Arriva services though!

 

[AlastairFraser]

After the success of the X74 service, First did introduce an express service called the X9 between Maidenhead and High Wycombe (2014 I think). It was a good idea but I don't think it was marketed well so lasted less than a year.

With the RBWM (Royal Borough of Windsor & Maidenhead) council tenders are this year, there is a chance Carousel could gain some routes in Maidenhead which would be nice to see. Think its unlikely considering they just picked up the Arriva services though!

Ah, so I did remember correctly about a First express service Maidenhead to Wycombe. Maybe another go at that route with proper marketing and diverting to serve the 2,000 students at BCA would be a prudent move by Carousel.

As for the council tenders, I'd have thought Carousel would have wanted to avoid overstretching themselves, especially with the distance from their main depot and limited space for more vehicles there.
However, I reckon they could go for the X74 as a logical extension to the network eventually, it fits in closely with their 102/103/104 services.
I also predict that Thames Valley will end up taking over First Berks; the RailAir services may hang on as part of a separate First coach division, but I can't see the Slough depot lasting much longer in First hands.

 

[jackgwycombe]

As for the council tenders, I'd have thought Carousel would have wanted to avoid overstretching themselves, especially with the distance from their main depot and limited space for more vehicles there.
I also predict that Thames Valley will end up taking over First Berks; the RailAir services may hang on as part of a separate First coach division, but I can't see the Slough depot lasting much longer in First hands.

Agreed, the only way I could see them going for one of the tenders is maybe by an extension of the 37 through to Windsor to replace the current 16. Many years ago, there used to be a service between High Wycombe and Windsor via Maidenhead and Boulters Lock which ran every 20 minutes. Considering Carousel have brought back serveral historic connections recently, it wouldn't surprise me if they consider this. Maidenhead is too small to be a terminus for bus routes so I think improving through connections is the way to go.

However, I reckon they could go for the X74 as a logical extension to the network eventually, it fits in closely with their 102/103/104 services.

I also predict that Thames Valley will end up taking over First Berks; the RailAir services may hang on as part of a separate First coach division, but I can't see the Slough depot lasting much longer in First hands.

First run most of the RailAir services from the Slough depot so its unlikely to be going anywhere - unlike Arriva where their depot's operations were purely local bus services.

I think the X74 will be the next major route gain for Carousel. Althoigh I think there are other routes that will get withdrawn before that such as the 12/13 - every bus I see on the route is near empty these days!

 

[AlastairFraser]

Agreed, the only way I could see them going for one of the tenders is maybe by an extension of the 37 through to Windsor to replace the current 16. Many years ago, there used to be a service between High Wycombe and Windsor via Maidenhead and Boulters Lock which ran every 20 minutes. Considering Carousel have brought back serveral historic connections recently, it wouldn't surprise me if they consider this. Maidenhead is too small to be a terminus for bus routes so I think improving through connections is the way to go.

I think the main issue with Maidenhead is the recent lack of a central bus station, to be honest.

If RBWM are smart, they should impose a ground floor bus station as a planning condition on one of the town centre redevelopment projects.

I can't see that service being run through from HW, mostly because of congestion around Bourne End and Cookham level crossing posing too much of a punctuality risk, for a route heading the long way to Windsor.
I'd say connect to the Woodlands Park circular, if anything (route 7). Nice and short, and you may get some cross town passengers heading to Furze Platt or Cookham.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I also predict that Thames Valley will end up taking over First Berks; the RailAir services may hang on as part of a separate First coach division, but I can't see the Slough depot lasting much longer in First hands.

I'm sure the same was said when Bracknell was closed, and when they axed certain routes leading to the formation of TV.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I'm sure the same was said when Bracknell was closed, and when they axed certain routes leading to the formation of TV.

Well, you can't deny the trend seems to be First's progressive withdrawal from Berks.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well, you can't deny the trend seems to be First's progressive withdrawal from Berks.

Well, nothing has changed in 7 years.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Well, nothing has changed in 7 years.

The progressive decline in First's service portfolio from the depot?

 

[Mgameing123]

I think the main issue with Maidenhead is the recent lack of a central bus station, to be honest.

If RBWM are smart, they should impose a ground floor bus station as a planning condition on one of the town centre redevelopment projects.

I can't see that service being run through from HW, mostly because of congestion around Bourne End and Cookham level crossing posing too much of a punctuality risk, for a route heading the long way to Windsor.
I'd say connect to the Woodlands Park circular, if anything (route 7). Nice and short, and you may get some cross town passengers heading to Furze Platt or Cookham.

If the buses had time to regulate at Frascati Way or this new potential bus station then it could work. The 16 today anyways always runs late. Never seen it run ontime.

 

[Andyh82]

Well, nothing has changed in 7 years.

And they have just massively improved the fleet with the Enviro 400 MMCs and the Beeline livery and brand