End in sight for the ASLEF dispute: Offer now made

[EZJ]

I can only imagine how apoplectic Daily Mail readers are at the pay offer being made to drivers. No doubt drivers and ASLEF are getting a right slagging off. "But what about the nurses?!!" will do doubt be the cry.

Apparently train drivers will be responsible for the deaths of freezing pensioners this winter because of this pay deal.
If anyone has a spare ten minutes just have a scroll through all the ASLEF posts in the trending news section on X, lots of frothing anger and resentment from Tories and Daily Mail readers. It's really quite an uplifting read

 

[HappyDriver99]

Simply
Year 1 Backpay(Y1B) = (2022 Base Salary + 5%) - 2022 Base Salary
Year 2 Backpay(Y2B) = Y1B + 4.75%
Year 3 Backpay(Y3B) = Y2B + 4.5%

So for example...

2022 wage 60000 goes to 63000
2023 wage 63000 goes to 65992.5
2024 wage 65993.5 goes to 71821

Total rise ,11821....back pay is this amount but taxed and pensioned? Not inc overtime.

 

[dk1]

It’s probably the easiest way to do it. Depending on how quickly they want it introduced.

Won't be anything easy about it mate. Can't see much if anything changing if I'm honest.

 

[ROCsteadycrew]

Something like
2022 Base Salary x 0.157
in total

Thanks, so £1,570 in my example. This seems vey different (and more realistic) than the £2992 quoted in post 217.

 

[A0]

Yeah? Tell us about them.

New independent report finds Network Rail guilty of ‘restrictive and inflexible’ working practices

Independent study finds rail industry lags behind other comparative industries Findings support need for Network Rail maintenance reforms Unblocking use of technology, adopting more flexible rostering and creating multifunctional teams are key to boosting productivity, which can unlock savings...

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Start here - and since it comes from Network Rail, you can't exactly claim it's a fabrication by The Sun / Daily Mail or whichever other press bogeyman you don't agree with.

 

[jfollows]

Thanks, so £1,570 in my example. This seems vey different (and more realistic) than the £2992 quoted in post 217.

I just did the mathematics, it's
(2022 Base Salary x 0.05) x ( 1 + 1.0475 + 1.0475x1.045 )
based on post 237 above

A sanity check would be that if the first year is 5% of the base, the next two years are slightly more, the total should be a bit more than 15%, which it is.

 

[NSEWonderer]

So for example...

2022 wage 60000 goes to 63000
2023 wage 63000 goes to 65992.5
2024 wage 65993.5 goes to 71821

Total rise ,11821....back pay is this amount but taxed and pensioned? Not inc overtime.

Gotta do quick maths again realise I might need to make a quick change.

 

[Osian85]

So for example...

2022 wage 60000 goes to 63000
2023 wage 63000 goes to 65992.5
2024 wage 65993.5 goes to 71821

Total rise ,11821....back pay is this amount but taxed and pensioned? Not inc overtime.

Back pay will be taxed and NI, but no pension deductions from it, that little detail is in the ASLEF email.

 

[greatkingrat]

Lot of people seem to be getting confused between the amount the salary will rise by, and the amount of backpay due.

Correct figures are

Old Salary - 60000
New Salary from Apr 2022 - 63000 (60000 +5%)
Backpay due for 2022/23 - 3000 (63000 - 60000)

New Salary from Apr 2023 - 65993 (63000 +4.75%)
Backpay due for 2023/24 - 5993 (65993 - 60000)

New Salary from Apr 2024 - 68962 (65993 + 4.5%)
Backpay due for Apr-Sep 2024 - 4481 (68962 - 60000 / 2) [assuming pay award is paid in October, so only 6 months backpay due for this year]

Total backpay due - 13474 (gross) (3000 + 5993 + 4481)
Plus whatever backpay is due on overtime, any other allowances etc.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Bit in bold - if history is anything to go by, then the exact opposite is true.

The reason there are outdated working practises on the railways now, is because the rail unions have been hugely resistant to change - there were still steam age practises in place in the 1980s, 20 years after steam had disappeared. Under nationalisation last time modernisation occurred at a snails pace, even when compared to some other nationalised industries.

You clearly haven’t read the formal offer letter then, or in fact been party to any of the changes made throughout the last 40 years.

 

[12LDA28C]

Agreed, that is what the new wages woulds be, but what would the back pay be in this example?

As stated. 5% back pay for all hours worked in year one. Plus 4.75% back pay for all hours worked in year two, based on the uplifted base salary. Plus 4.5% back pay from April 2024 (or other pay anniversary as appropriate) based on the uplifted base salary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

Something like
2022 Base Salary x 0.157
in total

Not just base salary - don't forget any overtime and Rest Days worked will be included in the back pay calculations of course.

 

[irish_rail]

Apparently train drivers will be responsible for the deaths of freezing pensioners this winter because of this pay deal.
If anyone has a spare ten minutes just have a scroll through all the ASLEF posts in the trending news section on X, lots of frothing anger and resentment from Tories and Daily Mail readers. It's really quite an uplifting read

Ah, would that be the same pensioners who have benefitted from triple lock the past 5 years? All funded by train drivers who have been generating money for the economy. I bet they don't mention that.

 

[ainsworth74]

Ah, would that be the same pensioners who have benefitted from triple lock the past 5 years? All funded by train drivers who have been generating money for the economy. I bet they don't mention that.

God no, they're the main Tory voter block and main block of Daily Mail readers, they won't want to upset them!

 

[A0]

You clearly haven’t read the formal offer letter then, or in fact been party to any of the changes made throughout the last 40 years.

Now don't misquote me.

I never said there had been *no* changes, what I actually said:

the rail unions have been hugely resistant to change - there were still steam age practises in place in the 1980s, 20 years after steam had disappeared. Under nationalisation last time modernisation occurred at a snails pace, even when compared to some other nationalised industries

And I stand by every word. There have been changes, but they have been slow to take place, have been met with resistance at every turn and much slower than other public sector organisations e.g. NHS or Teaching and definitely slower than in the private sector.

 

[Confused52]

Ah, would that be the same pensioners who have benefitted from triple lock the past 5 years? All funded by train drivers who have been generating money for the economy. I bet they don't mention that.

The normal behaviour of Retirement Pension calculations is that the payment in April rises by the larger of the increase of the CPI (not CPIH) and the Average Income for all earnings. The Triple Lock adds an increase to 2.5% if, and only if, the larger of the two increases of the Indices is less than 2.5%. So it gives a floor to make up for past years where the pension was under indexed. That amount only apply to the basic state pension and anything extra such as second state pension, graduated pension and extra pension from deferment are at CPI only.

The Indexes used are D7GT (12 month CPI) as in Sept of the previous year and KAC3 (12 month all wages) as in July of the previous year.
From April 2017 to April 2024 the real triple lock has only affected pensions in one year, and that was an uplift of 2% in April 2021.

The notion that the Triple lock is to be envied by Rail workers is misplaced and pretty insulting.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Remember that most drivers won't have received a pay rise for 2019/20, and 2020/21.

So if focusing on the % increase of salary, factor in 2 years of no payrise. So that's 14.25% or 14.9% over 5 years, which is an average of 2.85% or 2.98% a year.

Wasn't expressing any opinion about the issues, just pointing out it would be a bit sharp not to compound it.

I did text the 24 hour news radio station that I heard it on and they referred to the increase as 'nearly 15%' thereafter - so, rather than the official line, I think it was just an error by a Media Studies graduate in news media who takes pride in being no good at 'Maths' .

 

[12LDA28C]

Remember that most drivers won't have received a pay rise for 2019/20, and 2020/21.

This is not correct. Most, if not all drivers received a pay rise for the year 2019/20. It's 2020/21 and 2021/22 when no increase was given, hence the current offer being backdated to 2022/23 and the years subsequent.

 

[Tezza1978]

This is not correct. Most, if not all drivers received a pay rise for the year 2019/20. It's 2020/21 and 2021/22 when no increase was given, hence the current offer being backdated to 2022/23 and the years subsequent.

Do driver pay negotiations run on April - end of March blocks then?

So the final year of this pay deal would run up to and including March 2025?

 

[jon0844]

Apparently train drivers will be responsible for the deaths of freezing pensioners this winter because of this pay deal.
If anyone has a spare ten minutes just have a scroll through all the ASLEF posts in the trending news section on X, lots of frothing anger and resentment from Tories and Daily Mail readers. It's really quite an uplifting read

They've also blamed junior doctors and wasting money sending concerned citizens to jails for the loss of the winter heating allowance which is now means tested, much to the annoyance of rich pensioners who liked a nice little £200 bonus (or even those living abroad where it isn't even cold). I expect other rail staff will be blamed when a deal for the RMT is offered on the 20th. The fact the allowance is still there for those who need it, and it isn't and never was part of the pension anyway, seems conveniently left out every time.

Meanwhile The Telegraph (sorry, can't quote it here) have regurgitated a story with mentions of drivers being able to demand a new break if interrupted by a manager and other things to imply they're militant lunatics and absolutely not deserving of a pay rise.

I see they didn't mention that of this pay increase, 40% goes straight back to the treasury!

 

[NSEWonderer]

Not that it matters anymore winde they've accepted the deal but wasn't SE the longest running pay dispute? Seem to remember they were 5 years down or something??

 

[PLY2AYS]

Not that it matters anymore winde they've accepted the deal but wasn't SE the longest running pay dispute? Seem to remember they were 5 years down or something??

Nothing’s been accepted yet. It has to be balloted still.

 

[AndrewE]

I see they didn't mention that of this pay increase, 40% goes straight back to the treasury!

see post #223!

 

[NSEWonderer]

Nothing’s been accepted yet. It has to be balloted still.

Ah I got the impression of so from quite a few of them .

 

[Thirteen]

Am I only one who thinks the offer a tad low, 5% no strings is fine but I'm sure other TOCs that aren't under DfT control got better deals. ARL IIRC offered 6.5% to their drivers according to someone here.

 

[PLY2AYS]

Ah I got the impression of so from quite a few of them .

I agree, the general consensus is; it is a great offer.
But until it’s firmly accepted, I’m not counting any chickens.

 

[NSEWonderer]

I agree, the general consensus is; it is a great offer.
But until it’s firmly accepted, I’m not counting any chickens.

Indeed. I know quite a few drivers from some of the TOCs eligible for the deal, who are looking to call it time on a good career once its truly confirmed.

Probably not connected but noted one of the said TOCs has reopened applications for trainee drivers after a massive campaign not long ago for around a hundred odd and that campaign was extended twice!

 

[dk1]

I think if I read things correctly that going forward the DfT will no longer be involved in pay talks (praise the Lord) and that we will return to individual negotiations directly between local council and the train operator concerned.

 

[NSEWonderer]

I think if I read things correctly that going forward the DfT will no longer be involved in pay talks (praise the Lord) and that we will return to individual negotiations directly between local council and the train operator concerned.

Till GBR I assume, in which it will basically be the DFT again.

 

[dk1]

Till GBR I assume which it will be basically the DFT again.

That’s not how I interpreted things.

 

[jon0844]

see post #223!

I meant the media that want to attack the unions/drivers/workers.