End in sight for the ASLEF dispute: Offer now made

[Moonshot]

Glad a deal has finally been done, but not so sure it's sustainable going forward. Pretty sure future ones will have productivity elements to them. Worth noting also ( not sure if been mentioned yet on here ) that RDW at Northern will not be sanctioned from September onwards until further notice.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Haven't those already settled this year?

No, the Elizabeth Line drivers I believe are still in talks. Doubt it's fir a 3 year deal however maybe just for this year's talks. But I'm excluding them and TFW from this actual recent bumper deal.

So far SE have apparently been offered the new deal, and I assume C2C, GA and SWR will also be eligible.

 

[ROCsteadycrew]

Just to clarify how the backpay works.

So for each £10k earned is it applied as..

1) Year 1 - £500 (5% rise)
Year 2 - £475
Year 3 - £450
Total back pay - £1425
New wage rate (per £10k) £11,494 (compounded)

or

2) Does the backpay get added for each increase per year
Year 1+2+3 -£1500 (500*3)
Year 2+3 £950 (475*2)
Year 3 £450
Total back pay - £2900
Same new wage rate as above

Any thoughts? Is it done differently to either of these?

 

[newtownmgr]

Glad a deal has finally been done, but not so sure it's sustainable going forward. Pretty sure future ones will have productivity elements to them. Worth noting also ( not sure if been mentioned yet on here ) that RDW at Northern will not be sanctioned from September onwards until further notice.

I suspect with the impending re nationalisation we will start to see some sort of harmonisation being done to bring all drivers t & c’s in line.

 

[kourblimey]

Just one detail...

The media is describing it as a 14.25% increase. This is the arithmetic sum of the three tears' increases - 5.0%, 4.75% and 4.5% - but if these increases had been applied sequentially each year, the increase would have been compounded and the result is just over 14.9%.

I wonder which is correct. But maybe, unlike most of the media, it's just that I'm numerate...

I’m pretty sure that it would be compounded, as otherwise it would be a stated as a 14.25% pay rise on the current salary, which it isn’t.

 

[CAF397]

Just to clarify how the backpay works.

So for each £10k earned is it applied as..

1) Year 1 - £500 (5% rise)
Year 2 - £475
Year 3 - £450
Total back pay - £1425
New wage rate (per £10k) £11,494 (compounded)

or

2) Does the backpay get added for each increase per year
Year 1+2+3 -£1500 (500*3)
Year 2+3 £950 (475*2)
Year 3 £450
Total back pay - £2900
Same new wage rate as above

Any thoughts? Is it done differently to either of these?

Your first option, though this is how I'd work it out.

Year 1 is base salary + 5%
Year 2 is the new base salary after the year 1 increase + 4.75%
Year 3 is the new base salary after year 2 increase + 4.5%

So based on your 10k example.

Year 1 - £500 (5%) - £10,500
Year 2 - £498.75 (4.75%) - £10,998.75
Year 3 - £494.94 (4.5%) - £11,493.69

So increase of pay by £1,493.69

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

Just one detail...

The media is describing it as a 14.25% increase. This is the arithmetic sum of the three tears' increases - 5.0%, 4.75% and 4.5% - but if these increases had been applied sequentially each year, the increase would have been compounded and the result is just over 14.9%.

I wonder which is correct. But maybe, unlike most of the media, it's just that I'm numerate...

Remember that most drivers won't have received a pay rise for 2019/20, and 2020/21.

So if focusing on the % increase of salary, factor in 2 years of no payrise. So that's 14.25% or 14.9% over 5 years, which is an average of 2.85% or 2.98% a year.

 

[Mrmthompson]

Just to clarify how the backpay works.

So for each £10k earned is it applied as..

1) Year 1 - £500 (5% rise)
Year 2 - £475
Year 3 - £450
Total back pay - £1425
New wage rate (per £10k) £11,494 (compounded)

or

2) Does the backpay get added for each increase per year
Year 1+2+3 -£1500 (500*3)
Year 2+3 £950 (475*2)
Year 3 £450
Total back pay - £2900
Same new wage rate as above

Any thoughts? Is it done differently to either of these?

I believe it will be calculated like this when compounded. To make you easier, you need to imagine that you have reached the end of the 24/25 pay year before you get the full back pay.

The total for all 3 years (all compounded) will be £2,992

If you break it down by year it will be-

Old
Year 1 - £10,000
Year 2 - £10,000
Year 3 - £10,000
Total - £30,000

New
Year 1 - £10,500
Year 2 - £10,999
Year 3 - £11,493
Total £32,992

£32,992 -£30,000 = £2,992

So if you basic is £60,000, you will get £17,954

 

[winks]

Just to clarify how the backpay works.

So for each £10k earned is it applied as..

1) Year 1 - £500 (5% rise)
Year 2 - £475
Year 3 - £450
Total back pay - £1425
New wage rate (per £10k) £11,494 (compounded)

or

2) Does the backpay get added for each increase per year
Year 1+2+3 -£1500 (500*3)
Year 2+3 £950 (475*2)
Year 3 £450
Total back pay - £2900
Same new wage rate as above

Any thoughts? Is it done differently to either of these?

Pretty sure it’s the latter.

 

[scouseyb123]

I think its a great deal. As a driver I will be accepting it.

I see Grant Shapps has been sniping on Twitter/X this morning about it. He should hang his head in shame for the deterioration he directly wrought upon the industry.

 

[InOban]

Since the offer is ultimately being funded by the Treasury, will there be Barnett Consequental funding to the ScoGov? I believe scotrail and the unions are meeting today. As has been pointed out all grades at scotrail have had annual awards so it's only the current year which is in dispute AIUI.

 

[ROCsteadycrew]

So increase of pay by £1,493.69

Yes the £1493.69 is correct for the new rate of pay (I rounded to £1494 in my example) but I was thinking about the back pay calculations which is the more difficult to quantify.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

I believe it will be calculated like this when compounded. To make you easier, you need to imagine that you have reached the end of the 24/25 pay year before you get the full back pay.

The total for all 3 years (all compounded) will be £2,992

If you break it down by year it will be-

Old
Year 1 - £10,000
Year 2 - £10,000
Year 3 - £10,000
Total - £30,000

New
Year 1 - £10,500
Year 2 - £10,999
Year 3 - £11,493
Total £32,992

£32,992 -£30,000 = £2,992

So if you basic is £60,000, you will get £17,954

Interesting, hopefully this is correct.

 

[Osian85]

'Fully backdated'

To me that means, imagine there was no dispute and each payrise was added within each year instead of retrospectively now, that means you do the math the long way round; the first years payrise difference is owed to you three times (22/23/24), then the second years payrise difference is owed to you twice (23/24) and then the third years payrise difference is owed to you for one year (2024), and each of those are calculated on the new uplifted figure each year. That makes six 'difference figures' to add together for your 'Fully backdated' pay. Tax and NI will take a huge bite back, but not pension apparently, the email I just reciived from ASLEF states, amongst other things, "The pensions element of this offer will apply to pensionable pay, and will be backdated. There will, however, be no retrospective collection of pension contributions from members in respect of the back pay element of this offer".

 

[AndrewE]

My take on it is that a) most drivers worked through Covid
b) like most people (other than pensioners and Company Directors) they had a pay freeze for several years incliuding during the rampant inflation
c) most of them will be paying higher rate tax (and national insurance) so the net outflow of public money will be much less than the headline figure. I doubt that many - if any - get the sort of special "pension," private health insurance and other "expenses" arrangements that the top dogs get either
so I don't think the synthetic outrage of the right-wing media stands up to scrutiny. They wanted capitalism and forced it on railway people so they can't grumble if the ones who find they have power exploit it!

 

[Tractor2018]

I suspect with the impending re nationalisation we will start to see some sort of harmonisation being done to bring all drivers t & c’s in line.

I'm not sure if that'll happen. I'm not saying it won't, or it won't even be attempted........I just wouldn't like to be the one herding the cats!

One reason there's differences in reference salaries today is, historically everybody had the same basic but then there was link dependant mileage bonuses. That's partially why we have today's hierarchy of salaries at inter city operators Vs suburban/regional ones - those bonuses were consolidated into the reference salary.

Maybe that'd be one consideration for future harmonisation - returning to something similar.

Don't know. I just know I wouldn't like to be the person trying to resolve that question.

 

[RogueOne]

If not already posted, I’ve had this forwarded to me. Looks like the 20th for RMT news.

DEFENDING JOBS, PAY & CONDITIONS - TRAIN OPERATING COMPANIES

www.rmt.org.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

If not already posted, I’ve had this forwarded to me. Looks like the 20th for RMT news.

DEFENDING JOBS, PAY & CONDITIONS - TRAIN OPERATING COMPANIES

www.rmt.org.uk

 

[Efini92]

But what’s the point in just new drivers even if the unions allow it? Will be a drop in the ocean and still will only be a fraction of the establishments 20 years from now. No quick fix to be had anywhere.

It’s probably the easiest way to do it. Depending on how quickly they want it introduced.

 

[12LDA28C]

Your first option, though this is how I'd work it out.

Year 1 is base salary + 5%
Year 2 is the new base salary after the year 1 increase + 4.75%
Year 3 is the new base salary after year 2 increase + 4.5%

So based on your 10k example.

Year 1 - £500 (5%) - £10,500
Year 2 - £498.75 (4.75%) - £10,998.75
Year 3 - £494.94 (4.5%) - £11,493.69

This is correct.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

'Fully backdated'

To me that means, imagine there was no dispute and each payrise was added within each year instead of retrospectively now, that means you do the math the long way round; the first years payrise difference is owed to you three times (22/23/24), then the second years payrise difference is owed to you twice (23/24) and then the third years payrise difference is owed to you for one year (2024), and each of those are calculated on the new uplifted figure each year. That makes six 'difference figures' to add together for your 'Fully backdated' pay. Tax and NI will take a huge bite back, but not pension apparently, the email I just reciived from ASLEF states, amongst other things, "The pensions element of this offer will apply to pensionable pay, and will be backdated. There will, however, be no retrospective collection of pension contributions from members in respect of the back pay element of this offer".

This is not correct. The first year's payrise applies once, giving you a new baseline salary on which the second year's payrise is calculated, and so on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

I suspect with the impending re nationalisation we will start to see some sort of harmonisation being done to bring all drivers t & c’s in line.

I'm not convinced that's going to happen at all.

 

[A0]

Thanks for that lovely positive outlook, Mark.

I think with renationalisation looming, a modernisation in practices is likely, but that should be a separate conversation to an overdue pay rise… don’t you think?

Bit in bold - if history is anything to go by, then the exact opposite is true.

The reason there are outdated working practises on the railways now, is because the rail unions have been hugely resistant to change - there were still steam age practises in place in the 1980s, 20 years after steam had disappeared. Under nationalisation last time modernisation occurred at a snails pace, even when compared to some other nationalised industries.

 

[Class83]

Good to see this is getting sorted and hopefully will result in a reliable service for passengers. Slightly disappointed that there wasn't a provision for 7 day rota working as there could still be issues on Sundays where they rely on overtime. Hopefully there can be a follow on resolution to ensure that we have a 7 day timetable and sufficient staff to operate it as part of their normal roster as soon as possible. But if everyone Govt, Operators, Staff and Unions are focusing on delivering a service which is; safe, reliable (full timetable operates every day), comfortable (passengers get a seat, other than some short, peak, metro services) and affordable both in terms of tickets and government subsidy it will be a big step forward for the railways.

 

[brad465]

Being a regular user of this forum and seeing users who work in the industry give their knowledge and opinions based on their experiences, and then going onto literally any other internet discussion, reveals how much the public, whether intentionally or not, are idiots.

 

[12LDA28C]

Bit in bold - if history is anything to go by, then the exact opposite is true.

The reason there are outdated working practises on the railways now, is because the rail unions have been hugely resistant to change - there were still steam age practises in place in the 1980s, 20 years after steam had disappeared. Under nationalisation last time modernisation occurred at a snails pace, even when compared to some other nationalised industries.

Have they? It that why changes to working practices, Ts & Cs and productivity improvements have regularly formed a part of pay negotiations in the rail industry?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

Being a regular user of this forum and seeing users who work in the industry give their knowledge and opinions based on their experiences, and then going onto literally any other internet discussion, reveals how much the public, whether intentionally or not, are idiots.

I can only imagine how apoplectic Daily Mail readers are at the pay offer being made to drivers. No doubt drivers and ASLEF are getting a right slagging off. "But what about the nurses?!!" will no doubt be the cry.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Have they? It that why changes to working practices, Ts & Cs and productivity improvements have regularly formed a part of pay negotiations in the rail industry?

Absolutely. There have been numerous mutually agreed changes to terms and conditions from at least the 1980s.
Just a couple to start.
1) flexible rostering (gone from an eight hour day up to 11 hours?)
2) single manning. Trains now run single manned (on the footplate) up to 186 mph

 

[Starmill]

No, the Elizabeth Line drivers I believe are still in talks. Doubt it's fir a 3 year deal however maybe just for this year's talks. But I'm excluding them and TFW from this actual recent bumper deal.

So far SE have apparently been offered the new deal, and I assume C2C, GA and SWR will also be eligible.

Thank you - yes of course.

 

[ROCsteadycrew]

This is correct.

Agreed, that is what the new wages woulds be, but what would the back pay be in this example?

 

[Starmill]

Since the offer is ultimately being funded by the Treasury, will there be Barnett Consequental funding to the ScoGov? I believe scotrail and the unions are meeting today. As has been pointed out all grades at scotrail have had annual awards so it's only the current year which is in dispute AIUI.

Yes if the Departmental Expenditure Limit is varied, no if it isn't. So it depends on how big the overspend is how much underspend gets clawed back in practice.

 

[Tractor2018]

The reason there are outdated working practises on the railways now

Yeah? Tell us about them.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Agreed, that is what the new wages woulds be, but what would the back pay be in this example?

Simply
Key : YBS = Base Salary For That Year
Year 1 Increase(Y1SI) = YBS + 5%
Year 1 Backpay(Y1B) = Y1SI - YBS
Year 2 Increase(Y2SI) = Y1SI + 4.75%
Year 2 Backpay(Y2B) = Y2SI - YBS
Year 3 Increase(Y3SI) = Y2SI + 4.5%
Year 3 Backpay(Y3B) = Y3SI - YBS

NOTE: You can substitute (YBS)Base Salary for your actual annual earning in Year 1 as that will include overtime etc etc. Where as the above just go off Base Salary For simplicity.

 

[Dieseldriver]

Yeah? Tell us about them.

‘Tumbleweed’….

 

[waterboo]

‘Tumbleweed’….

Having a guard dispatch the train

 

[jfollows]

Simply
Year 1 Backpay(Y1B) = (2022 Base Salary + 5%) - 2022 Base Salary
Year 2 Backpay(Y2B) = Y1B + 4.75%
Year 3 Backpay(Y3B) = Y2B + 4.5%

Something like
2022 Base Salary x 0.157
in total