ASLEF - LNER drivers to strike every Sat & Sun for 3 months from 31 Aug - Now called off

[Clarence Yard]

Well where else do you expect GBR senior TOC/Regional management to come from?
They are very likely to be either current TOC MDs (Horne was retained as LNER MD on transfer to OHL), or senior DfT Rail people, or senior Network Rail people, or perhaps managers from Roscos and manufacturers.
Or maybe even politicians - Richard Marsh was a (Labour) transport minister before becoming chairman of BR.
Senior management/directors aren't normally part of the TUPE arrangements.

For TOC senior management/directors, it depends on who employs them. If it is the TOC, then they are entitled to TUPE, unless they want to transfer to another post within that Owning Group or there is an agreement to give them redundancy so they don’t actually transfer to DOHL.

If they are employed by that Owning Group and only contract their time or some of their time to the TOC, then there is usually no TUPE entitlement.

With GBR on the horizon, we should expect TOC MD’s and their senior teams to start turning their heads towards the future and positioning themselves accordingly.

 

[weeklycommuter]

LNER strike is 'frustrating' says minister as unions and bosses urged to talk

Writing for the Sunday Mirror, Transport Secretary Louise Haigh said new strike action over LNER services was a reminder of how fragmented the rail network is

www.mirror.co.uk

I’ve made my frustrations clear to both parties and my message is simple. Follow this Government’s lead – urgently get around the table, negotiate in good faith and stop this action before it starts.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Frustrating is exactly how I feel too.

 

[Moonshot]

Certain people who are posting in this thread need to realise that an employer does not own its employees and that we no longer live in Victorian times.

Time off is precious. It allows us to connect with family and friends; this is especially important when one starts work at silly'o'clock in the morning and, at the other end of the scale, finishes at stupid o'clock in the morning. These are things that we accept as shift workers; it goes with the territory.

However, there's nothing worse than when your long-planned weekend off is interrupted by a call from your boss asking you to cover a shift because of a staff shortage. I used to work a 4-on, 2-off pattern which meant that I only ever had Saturday and Sunday off once every seven weeks and it was totally frustrating to be phoned at 6am on that Saturday to be asked to come into work.

Sometimes you have to say "no"; it's not because you're unwilling to help the business or your colleagues, but simply because your own life outside of work comes first. As far as I'm concerned, if you fulfil your contractual obligations, your employer has no cause for complaint, especially if they fail to recruit sufficient staff to meet the needs of the business.

I'd be interested to know how many of the critics in this thread work nine-to-five and wouldn't ever consider working beyond their contracted hours without overtime payments.

This simply doesn't happen at my depot..... nobody gets pestered to work overtime. You either make yourself available for rest day working .....or leave yourself off that list and have the time off

 

[PLY2AYS]

This simply doesn't happen at my depot..... nobody gets pestered to work overtime. You either make yourself available for rest day working .....or leave yourself off that list and have the time off

I think that’s part of the issue here… it doesn’t happen at your depot because agreements are in place and those practices are followed.

Clearly there’s a discrepancy with LNER that needs addressing.
If it is the case that people are being chased by the company to work overtime, the biggest questions are “why am I being contacted during my time off” and “why did someone else get favoured over me”? Because departure from what seems to be a fairly standard and unbiased practice, combined with other factors of purported bullying and other things, are clearly aggravating drivers.

Is anyone at LNER on this threat who can give a fair summary? (I’ve trawled the last 10 pages and haven’t seen anything)

 

[Moonshot]

I think that’s part of the issue here… it doesn’t happen at your depot because agreements are in place and those practices are followed.

Clearly there’s a discrepancy with LNER that needs addressing.
If it is the case that people are being chased by the company to work overtime, the biggest questions are “why am I being contacted during my time off” and “why did someone else get favoured over me”? Because departure from what seems to be a fairly standard and unbiased practice, combined with other factors of purported bullying and other things, are clearly aggravating drivers.

Is anyone at LNER on this threat who can give a fair summary? (I’ve trawled the last 10 pages and haven’t seen anything)

I would be interested in the inside track as well....an honest appraisal if you will.

 

[WilloughbyGC]

I think that’s part of the issue here… it doesn’t happen at your depot because agreements are in place and those practices are followed.

Clearly there’s a discrepancy with LNER that needs addressing.
If it is the case that people are being chased by the company to work overtime, the biggest questions are “why am I being contacted during my time off” and “why did someone else get favoured over me”? Because departure from what seems to be a fairly standard and unbiased practice, combined with other factors of purported bullying and other things, are clearly aggravating drivers.

Is anyone at LNER on this threat who can give a fair summary? (I’ve trawled the last 10 pages and haven’t seen anything)

That's exactly it - for a 'discrepancy' at one TOC about how drivers are contacted to become front page news on multiple newspapers this weekend illustrates what a disastrous own goal this is for Aslef, for LNER and for the railway as a whole.

Instead of celebrating that a new and broadly sympathetic Government has ended a hugely damaging and long-running industrial dispute over pay, Aslef have announced the devastation of leisure travel on one of the biggest lines in the country for 3 months.

Is it any wonder why everyone in Government is sceptical at best, and downright hostile at worst towards the railways?

Anyone in Aslef wonder why poll after poll shows the public have the least sympathy for the train driver's dispute compared to every other group of public sector workers?

I promise you, I have no view or inside knowledge about whether LNER or Aslef are most at fault over how drivers are contacted - and like the rest of the country I don't care - but I know a PR and political disaster when I see one.

Maybe arrange a meeting at DfT to discuss the problem affecting a nationalised TOC? Or seek a reference to ACAS? No, far better to destroy the weekend plans of thousands of people and deter thousands more from considering using rail in a climate crisis.

A strike about how people are phoned - seriously? Oh, and best to announce it straight after the apparent end of the pay dispute to ensure blanket coverage. Genius.

No wonder Lou Haigh is 'frustrated', all Labour's goodwill gone in an instant, and a huge attack line given to the grateful Opposition about Labour's 'paymasters' meaning that every rail dispute will now be much harder to solve.

The public will see hard-working rail staff as greedy, grasping and militant when we all know that the vast, vast majority are not. I have news folks: the travelling public and the taxpayer makes no distinction between dispute, nor even between Aslef, RMT and TSSA. They just see the headlines and conclude that solving a dispute with the rail unions makes matters worse. What a disaster for everyone (unless you happen to run a domestic airline).

 

[Thumper1127]

That's exactly it - for a 'discrepancy' at one TOC about how drivers are contacted to become front page news on multiple newspapers this weekend illustrates what a disastrous own goal this is for Aslef, for LNER and for the railway as a whole. Instead of celebrating that a new and broadly sympathetic Government has ended a hugely damaging and long-running industrial dispute over pay, Aslef have announced the devastation of leisure travel on one of the biggest lines in the country for 3 months. Is it any wonder why everyone in Government is sceptical at best, and downright hostile at worst towards the railways? Anyone in Aslef wonder why poll after poll shows the public have the least sympathy for the train driver's dispute compared to every other group of public sector workers? I promise you i have no view or inside knowledge about whether LNER or Aslef are most at fault over how drivers are contacted - and like the rest of the country I don't care - but I know a PR and political disaster when I see one. Maybe arrange a meeting at DfT to discuss the problem affecting a nationalised TOC? Or seek a reference to ACAS? No, far better to destroy the weekend plans of thousands of people and deter thousands more from considering using rail in a climate crisis. A strike about how people are phoned - seriously? Oh and best to announce it straight after the apparent end of the pay dispute to ensure blanket coverage. Genius. No wonder Lou Haigh is 'frustrated', all Labour's goodwill gone in an instant, and a huge attack line given to the grateful Opposition about Labour's 'paymasters' meaning that every rail dispute will now be much harder to solve. The public will see hard-working rail staff as greedy, grasping and militant when we all know that the vast, vast majority are not. I have news folks: the travelling public and the taxpayer makes no distinction between dispute, nor even between Aslef, RMT and TSSA. They just see the headlines and conclude that solving a dispute with the rail unions makes matters worse. What a disaster for everyone (unless you happen to run a domestic airline).

Has this been put to a ballot? There have been a few posts on here saying some Drivers are very unhappy at the prospect of the action. If it hasn’t, test the support for it. If a ballot supports the action then that gives it legitimacy and a basis on which to go into negotiations. It does seem strange to me that with the prospect of significant (deserved) back pay Drivers would want to give up a significant chunk of it in loss of earnings in this way.

 

[Iskra]

Has this been put to a ballot? There have been a few posts on here saying some Drivers are very unhappy at the prospect of the action. If it hasn’t, test the support for it. If a ballot supports the action then that gives it legitimacy and a basis on which to go into negotiations. It does seem strange to me that with the prospect of significant (deserved) back pay Drivers would want to give up a significant chunk of it in loss of earnings in this way.

Agreed. It seems like something that should be resolved via internal company processes through HR, rather than mass strike action at a critical time for railway industrial relations. Has that process already been tried and exhausted?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Has this been put to a ballot? There have been a few posts on here saying some Drivers are very unhappy at the prospect of the action. If it hasn’t, test the support for it. If a ballot supports the action then that gives it legitimacy and a basis on which to go into negotiations. It does seem strange to me that with the prospect of significant (deserved) back pay Drivers would want to give up a significant chunk of it in loss of earnings in this way.

Yes, the ballot in May had a 78.06% turnout with 91.42% in favour of strike action.

 

[Starmill]

It does seem strange to me that with the prospect of significant (deserved) back pay Drivers would want to give up a significant chunk of it in loss of earnings in this way.

Is that strange? A lump sum of back pay certainly makes more strike action seem less financially painful.

 

[Thumper1127]

Is that strange? A lump sum of back pay certainly makes more strike action seem less financially painful.

Agreed, less financially painful but still seems a shame to throw a large part of it away. But as Clarence Yard has now confirmed that there has been a very high call for action things must be bad! For transparency (I do NOT take notice of newspaper headlines) does anyone know the precise question that was put to members? I’m just trying to understand the precise details of the dispute rather than any conjecture. No agenda here, just trying to understand.

 

[DJP78]

Has this been put to a ballot? There have been a few posts on here saying some Drivers are very unhappy at the prospect of the action. If it hasn’t, test the support for it. If a ballot supports the action then that gives it legitimacy and a basis on which to go into negotiations. It does seem strange to me that with the prospect of significant (deserved) back pay Drivers would want to give up a significant chunk of it in loss of earnings in this way.

The ballot would have been issued before the pay dispute was accepted by ASLEF negotiators.

Looks as though the pay deal was accepted, then the next day, ASLEF hit the nuclear launch button regarding LNER.

Along with others, I also wonder what the LNER drivers make of the announcement now and whether they would have approved it given its timing relative to the pay offer.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That's exactly it - for a 'discrepancy' at one TOC about how drivers are contacted to become front page news on multiple newspapers this weekend illustrates what a disastrous own goal this is for Aslef, for LNER and for the railway as a whole. Instead of celebrating that a new and broadly sympathetic Government has ended a hugely damaging and long-running industrial dispute over pay, Aslef have announced the devastation of leisure travel on one of the biggest lines in the country for 3 months. Is it any wonder why everyone in Government is sceptical at best, and downright hostile at worst towards the railways? Anyone in Aslef wonder why poll after poll shows the public have the least sympathy for the train driver's dispute compared to every other group of public sector workers? I promise you i have no view or inside knowledge about whether LNER or Aslef are most at fault over how drivers are contacted - and like the rest of the country I don't care - but I know a PR and political disaster when I see one. Maybe arrange a meeting at DfT to discuss the problem affecting a nationalised TOC? Or seek a reference to ACAS? No, far better to destroy the weekend plans of thousands of people and deter thousands more from considering using rail in a climate crisis. A strike about how people are phoned - seriously? Oh and best to announce it straight after the apparent end of the pay dispute to ensure blanket coverage. Genius. No wonder Lou Haigh is 'frustrated', all Labour's goodwill gone in an instant, and a huge attack line given to the grateful Opposition about Labour's 'paymasters' meaning that every rail dispute will now be much harder to solve. The public will see hard-working rail staff as greedy, grasping and militant when we all know that the vast, vast majority are not. I have news folks: the travelling public and the taxpayer makes no distinction between dispute, nor even between Aslef, RMT and TSSA. They just see the headlines and conclude that solving a dispute with the rail unions makes matters worse. What a disaster for everyone (unless you happen to run a domestic airline).

Very well stated but Haigh says shes frustrated is bizarre shes responsible for OLR and should tell Gisby to get it sorted or find another job and then told Hendy and Whelan to coperate and make it go away by the end of the weekend.

 

[NSEWonderer]

Very well stated but Haigh says shes frustrated is bizarre shes responsible for OLR and should tell Gisby to get it sorted or find another job and then told Hendy and Whelan to coperate and make it go away by the end of the weekend.

She's only been in charge for a short while, probably still having an internal review of issues which will take some time, bound to have issues spin out of control as she won't be able to immediate solve everything that quickly.

 

[Starmill]

Very well stated but Haigh says shes frustrated is bizarre shes responsible for OLR and should tell Gisby to get it sorted or find another job and then told Hendy and Whelan to coperate and make it go away by the end of the weekend.

It's not even clear cut what Aslef would see as a good solution to the alleged problems, let alone whether that solution is in the power of Hendy or Haigh to actually give.

 

[NSEWonderer]

It's not even clear cut what Aslef would see as a good solution to the alleged problems, let alone whether that solution is in the power of Hendy or Haigh to actually give.

The root cause seems to be a lack of drivers for trains, leading to the need for overtime work of which is struggling to also be filled. The company is then resorting to paying managers a premium to fill the overtime requirement themselves. I would assume at least one point ASLEF is asking, is for more drivers to be hired ontop of some behavioral changes.

 

[renegademaster]

What's the chance this gets settled quickly? I got a trip planned during the strike period and debating getting coach tickets

 

[Thumper1127]

The root cause seems to be a lack of drivers for trains, leading to the need for overtime work of which is struggling to also be filled. The company is then resorting to paying managers a premium to fill the overtime requirement themselves. I would assume at least one point ASLEF is asking, is for more drivers to be hired ontop of some behavioral changes.

Isn’t recruitment/training already underway?

 

[NSEWonderer]

Isn’t recruitment/training already underway?

I assume it's ongoing as always yes but this seems to have been an issue spanning 2 years so is the recruitment really filling the apparent void?

 

[Clarence Yard]

It's not even clear cut what Aslef would see as a good solution to the alleged problems, let alone whether that solution is in the power of Hendy or Haigh to actually give.

The solution lies in the power of Gisby and his fellow DOHL directors to make either a change in the management policy at LNER and/or a change in the management itself.

I think it is odds on that the current MD at LNER has a short shelf life. You don’t cause this level of embarrassment to Government and think you can survive.

 

[Bluejays]

I've been in many drivers cabs of LNER services and all drivers were using an iPad

This does not happen. However, a "compromised break" does - this is when the driver interrupts their break to do something like move a train - many drivers don't bother to make a fuss, however others who have then had an incident found themselves blamed as they hadn't had their break.

Walking times are not claimed but diagrammed. They are set out by management - an example to suit your post would be Fenchurch Street where the messroom was next to the gateline but we got 10 minutes walking time. The reason for this was that the old messroom was much further away and the management were too busy to notice and update the walking times.

I can't think of what you mean here apart from many TOCs have an agreement that shifts must start and finish in the same location? I'm sure you wouldn't like being left at the other end of the line to travel back to London and get your car in your own time, because it is a "benefit to the business".

This was related to making up for the comission guards used to get for selling tickets and is only in place at a couple of tocs.

Again, in my experience the only issue has been a few older folks asking to be talked through the software, and management interpreting that as a refusal. Zoom has been common at every TOC I have worked at since 2020 and hasn't been the source of any problems.

I've posted earlier in this thread about how management playing trains has directly impacted me and could have stopped me progressing my career. I've said that I prefer management to be competent drivers, and most companies ensure this. You're mixing up not wanting them to be competent with not wanting them spending their entire time driving trains.

You're going to have to give more context here because now I have absolutely no idea what you're on about, and I really don't know if you're serious or not.

Unfortunately, the poster who posted these largely incorrect comments specifically said they wouldn't discuss them.


Thinking about it, they'd probably do very well in Lner or ASLEF head office with that kind of attitude

 

[TreacleMiller]

The root cause seems to be a lack of drivers for trains, leading to the need for overtime work of which is struggling to also be filled. The company is then resorting to paying managers a premium to fill the overtime requirement themselves. I would assume at least one point ASLEF is asking, is for more drivers to be hired ontop of some behavioral changes.

That's not far off. But there is a lot going on beyond that.

To be clear, this post is simply my own thoughts and a few my own experiences - not those of my colleagues and I certainly don't speak for ASLEF.

The official reason for the strike action (which I voted for) has already been detailed by ASLEF. My summised understanding is that this boils down to breach of rostering agreements and failing to follow the agreed to processes that ASLEF and LNER/VTEC agreed to follow.

This is exactly what has been happening.

The company has certainly tried to ignore rostering agreements, repeatedly now for some time.

There's been mandate and support for this action for some time.

TO BE CLEAR TO MAIL READERS, ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH PAY. I can't speak for others but a RDW payment / agreement wouldn't make me turn a blind eye to what's been happening either.



The railway runs on a lot of goodwill due to its nature. Without employing at least 2/3 drivers at every depot per AM and PM to sit spare small delays can cause big problems when the workforce isn't being flexible this makes delays worse.

Simply put it's costly to build in a lot of redundancy and I suspect the public would be likely pretty annoyed to see people earning 60-80k a year sat on their arse 1/2 days a month.

As a result of the previously "assumed" goodwill drying up, day to day operation has gotten worse with relationships between drivers and DTMs and some individuals at both the ROC and board level are at low point. In some instances that has resulted in quite poor behavior from management. All to often that's resulted in some at the company "demanding" what isn't agreed to. They know this and try it on anyway.

There has certainly been instances of drivers being dragged through disciplinary processes only for there to be found that there is no wrong doing.

The we have day to day poor management and generally toxic behaviors. Some examples I've experienced would be.

- Being sent to the "wrong place" when spare, or sent on conflicting jobs. (I've been chasited for being exactly where I was meant to be and sent to by management - whilst booked on for duty).

- Having start times changed without agreed notice.

- Threatened with "escalation" when refusing to carry out additional work that's not on my booked diagram (and that's happened to many more than me). Just what you want to hear when you're undertaking safety critical duties.

- Called on my work mobile at the small hours of the morning on rest days. I switch mine off, some don't.

- Had training / assessments delayed due to managers working overtime (driving).

- Witnessed managers / Trainers being paid £500 for approximately 20 minutes work to fill a small gap unable to be plugged with spare drivers or cover diagrams.

- Had at least one assessment moved to suit a managers overtime - IE they got paid for the OT and I was driving.

- A manager walking into the mess room and broadcasting the size of their payslip for said payments.

- Being publicly blamed for the cancellation of services that have been planned to be cancelled in advance (stood on a platform waiting for a set with my crew only to have "Cancelled due to a shortage of train drivers" announced as the reason for it being canned) You can imagine what myself and crew dealt with on the platforms.

- Being told to carry out non risked assessed movements.

- Being asked and encouraged to cut breaks short when arriving late into a destination by local staff who have been "told to ask" and themselves have been pressured into doing what they don't agree with.

I could go on...

One or two "not agreed to requests" once in a while is one thing, but it's at the point where something happens on an almost daily basis, if not to me then a friend. Couple that to managers being heavily "Influenced" to work against drivers..... It's no wonder there is a "poor" atmosphere that has certainly become toxic. That was well within the companies power to control and they haven't.

 

[eldomtom2]

Good to hear from someone who works for LNER.

 

[RollingStock19]

It only takes one serious incident to put a stop to this practice.

Although not a serious incident, I believe they have had a few things thing fail to calls while managers were out driving.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

@TreacleMiller - thank you very much for giving the other side of the story.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Although not a serious incident, I believe they have had a few things thing fail to calls while managers were out driving.

Correct.

 

[800001]

Although not a serious incident, I believe they have had a few things thing fail to calls while managers were out driving.

No different to normal drivers, who also fail to call!

 

[TreacleMiller]

No different to normal drivers, who also fail to call!

No one is infallible. We all make mistakes. Risks are higher when back off a break or making irregular driving and we've certainly seen managers make some large errors of judgment. That makes their ability to coach / discipline others for making the same ones weaker in my view.

I'll make a mistake one day. I hope i'm dealt with in the same way as those people are / were.

 

[InkyScrolls]

No different to normal drivers, who also fail to call!

I suspect the rate of occurrences compared with the number of managers driving was the cause for concern. Most drivers never have a FTC so if several managers have over a short period that rather calls into doubt their suitability for driving.