End in sight for the ASLEF dispute: Offer now made

[PLY2AYS]

Remind me never to let you to cut me out of a diagram

 

[manmikey]

Walking time....if you have a 30 minute break with no walking time allowance in an 08h:59m diagram and your mess room is a 10 minute walk from the platforms, you would end up with a 10 minute walk a 10 minute break and then another 10 minute walk. Is that really acceptable when you may have been in the cab for up to 5 hours prior to the break? That's why walking time is not part of the break, why is it so hard to understand!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The only dual manning requirements I recall from that era were:
1. Where there was a train-heating boiler in use;
2. Where a driver PNB could not be fitted in;
3. Where the second man was needed for operational reasons such as coupling/uncoupling.

Which were reasonable requirements unrelated to whether the locos were steam, diesel or electric!

What about double manning at over 110mph on HSTs until privatisation?
That was 20 years of pointless double manning.

 

[Krokodil]

That was 20 years of pointless double manning.

You don't know that it was "pointless". You don't know what possible accidents were prevented by a second pair of eyes. As I said earlier other countries don't permit 125mph running on conventional signals so the extra vigilance may have been warranted.

 

[Zerothebrake!]

What about double manning at over 110mph on HSTs until privatisation?
That was 20 years of pointless double manning.

It was the rule at the time. If you didn't have rules it would be like St Trinian's when the bell rang.

 

[ainsworth74]

You don't know that it was "pointless". You don't know what possible accidents were prevented by a second pair of eyes. As I said earlier other countries don't permit 125mph running on conventional signals so the extra vigilance may have been warranted.

How many accidents have been caused, on a busier railway, since single manning at more than 110 had been permitted?

 

[AndrewE]

How many accidents have been caused, on a busier railway, since single manning at more than 110 had been permitted?

So what? Small steps...
I wasn't on the front end when the step-change in speed came in, and I doubt you were either. After a settling in period we got there though...

 

[Dieseldriver]

How many accidents have been caused, on a busier railway, since single manning at more than 110 had been permitted?

You could argue Southall in 1997 if we’re going down that road….

 

[ainsworth74]

So what? Small steps...
I wasn't on the front end when the step-change in speed came in, and I doubt you were either. After a settling in period we got there though...

If the suggestion is that accidents were avoided by having two drivers in the cab at higher speeds , it is surely not unreasonable to ask how many were caused by only having one?

You could argue Southall in 1997 if we’re going down that road….

Though that wouldn't have been doubled manned would it? Or maybe it would have been, I don't know the GWML well enough!

 

[Clarence Yard]

Under the previous agreement, it would have been two men in that cab, not one.

But all the productivity arguments really are a side show - the money for the pay rise is going to come from some of the future savings made by the DfT in not having to pay the Owning Groups their fees.

 

[Krokodil]

How many accidents have been caused, on a busier railway, since single manning at more than 110 had been permitted?

A busier railway where TPWS has massively reduced the number of SPADs.

But since you ask, Southall was a big one that almost certainly would have been prevented.

 

[ainsworth74]

A busier railway where TPWS has massively reduced the number of SPADs.

Yep very valid point! Its unknowable really I think either way. Did having two drivers up front avoid accidents in the period when that was a thing? Personally I don't know. I'm not convinced it did! But, it was a very different railway. No TPWS, no OTMR even for most (all?) of that period, very different standards and approaches to driving. I'm not sure we'll ever know really.

But since you ask, Southall was a big one that almost certainly would have been prevented.

Perhaps, perhaps not. We can never really know but perhaps two sets of eyes on the signals in question might have made the difference.

Under the previous agreement, it would have been two men in that cab, not one.

Ah okay, thank you for that. As I say GWML is not my patch.

 

[kourblimey]

How quickly will this pay rise be implemented at TOC’s? Is it something we can expect by September?

Cheers

 

[dk1]

How quickly will this pay rise be implemented at TOC’s? Is it something we can expect by September?

Cheers

Should it be accepted I think the general opinion is October 18th.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Should it be accepted I think the general opinion is October 18th.

There are a lot of calculations to do, it wouldn’t surprise me if it is November instead.

 

[dk1]

There are a lot of calculations to do, it wouldn’t surprise me if it is November instead.

Possibly but I think October is quite doable. It’s been a couple of years so what’s another 4-weeks?

 

[greatkingrat]

There are a lot of calculations to do, it wouldn’t surprise me if it is November instead.

They might split it and pay the basic pay back pay (which is fairly simple) in October, then back pay on overtime etc in November.

 

[Zain K]

Would anyone know if this would also affect trainees during the first year apprenticeship?

 

[theageofthetra]

They might split it and pay the basic pay back pay (which is fairly simple) in October, then back pay on overtime etc in November.

Well the vote has to be completed by 18th Sept, so Oct payroll makes most sense, though agree overtime, pension etc may be later.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Would anyone know if this would also effect trainees during the first year apprenticeship?

The wording was all driving grades. Trainees are in the driving grade. I also asked for clarification as I was training for part of this period and got told it was.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

Possibly but I think October is quite doable. It’s been a couple of years so what’s another 4-weeks?

Exactly.

 

[norbitonflyer]

If the suggestion is that accidents were avoided by having two drivers in the cab at higher speeds , it is surely not unreasonable to ask how many were caused by only having one?

It was reported that the Cowden head on collision was somehow caused because there were two men in the cab, which I never quite understood.

 

[greatkingrat]

There is always the risk that with two people, they start chatting and end up distracting each other so neither notices the signal.

 

[father_jack]

It was reported that the Cowden head on collision was somehow caused because there were two men in the cab, which I never quite understood.

There was an allegation though that of the two men in the cab the driver wasn't driving if I recall correctly.....

 

[Gemz91]

Walking time....if you have a 30 minute break with no walking time allowance in an 08h:59m diagram and your mess room is a 10 minute walk from the platforms, you would end up with a 10 minute walk a 10 minute break and then another 10 minute walk. Is that really acceptable when you may have been in the cab for up to 5 hours prior to the break? That's why walking time is not part of the break, why is it so hard to understand!

It’s mad. I always say if you told someone who worked in an office that during their whole working day they would be entitled to a 30 minute break, in that 30 minutes they’ve got to heat their food up, eat, go to the toilet, make a drink, possibly drink the drink, have a fag, make ALL their personal phone calls and text messages in that time span, they’d laugh at you and say not a chance. Then tell them they’ve got to walk ten minutes to the place to do it all in, they’d think you was barking mad.

 

[6Gman]

What about double manning at over 110mph on HSTs until privatisation?
That was 20 years of pointless double manning.

We didn't have HSTs.

So the list I gave was the circumstances under which we double-manned.

 

[Zain K]

The wording was all driving grades. Trainees are in the driving grade. I also asked for clarification as I was training for part of this period and got told it was.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==



Exactly.

Thanks Miller. Makes me happy knowing this. Will be starting my training in 2 weeks so can ask in induction to clarify if we get a pay rise too but hopefully we all get a increase.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Thanks Miller. Makes me happy knowing this. Will be starting my training in 2 weeks so can ask in induction to clarify if we get a pay rise too but hopefully we all get a increase.

Trainee rates are based off of the full salary so will rise also.

 

[weeklycommuter]

Former Tory rail minister admits failure on reform – praises train staff and unions

Huw Merriman: ‘These people work hard and should be shown more respect’

www.independent.co.uk

The last Tory rail minister has made a surprise intervention in the row over train driver pay – praising railway staff and saying he understands why Labour ministers chose to “cut a deal” with the train drivers.

 

[uglymonkey]

You could argue Southall in 1997 if we’re going down that road….

That and a brick ( Allegedly)

 

[Krokodil]

No surprise from Merriman. The impression at the time (on any part of his brief) was that he was bound by collective responsibility to defend whatever idiotic policy the PM had thought up this week, even when he knew that it was stupid.