ASLEF - LNER drivers to strike every Sat & Sun for 3 months from 31 Aug - Now called off

[172007]

Train crew supervisor.

Unless they are an assistant (panel man) they are technically a DTCM, Duty Train Crew Manager; although we all call them TCS.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Train crew supervisor.

Many thanks.

 

[12LDA28C]

Well it is, if you have spare shifts who have not been used. However this is rare as spare coverage is normally already eaten up.

Surely 'spare shift' drivers who have not been pre-allocated a turn of duty are still required to attend their home depot at the necessary book-on time. They are not sitting at home getting paid whilst waiting for a phone call when someone goes sick. 'Spare' drivers and drivers who are off on Rest Day are two totally separate things.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2024 ==

A balance of both, just as is the case for any costs incurred.

Not so sure about that. Since most if not all TOCs these days have to get authority from the DfT to recruit, especially for a large drive to get Depots up to full establishment if they are significantly below where they need to be, I assume that the taxpayer will pay at least initially for the additional drivers.

 

[Silverlinky]

There are so many variables even when you have enough staff and spares - sickness, additional training, other duties, emergency leave etc. You can also have someone in position but not productive yet, something particularly acute in the driver world.

Exactly this. How many staff is "enough"? I believe that each depot will have an agreed compliment based on the workload (diagrams) at the depot plus a percentage of spare coverage.
What you can't predict is sickness, restricted drivers, emergency leave and the level of normal leave which for example will be higher at certain times of the year than others, thinking of school holidays and the like.
At the depot I work at we are told we are over compliment for drivers yet there is plenty of overtime by way of RDW and in the past few weeks they still haven't been able to cover all the turns, mainly due to the leave quota being at the maximum allowed plus a higher number of sick or non-productive drivers.

I don't think there will ever come a time when all the trains are running and fully crewed, yet there are still enough spares in the messroom to get a card school going!

 

[12LDA28C]

Unless they are an assistant (panel man) they are technically a DTCM, Duty Train Crew Manager; although we all call them TCS.

The job title varies between employer and location. They could be a TCS, a DTCM or a Controller, but potentially all doing the same job.

 

[newtownmgr]

Sorry, what is 'TCS’s' please?

Train crew supervisors. Title varies between companies tho.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Nearly everyone gets a work phone, this is what it's for.

Seriously? I never realised that. Things have certainly changed since I left the UK.

 

[12LDA28C]

It's also totally reasonable to simply not give your line manager your personal telephone number, Facebook, Telegram, or whatever it may be if you prefer to not have them use it. Nearly everyone gets a work phone, this is what it's for.

Not all TOCs issue mobile phones to their drivers.

 

[chuff chuff]

Not all TOCs issue mobile phones to their drivers.

Tablets but no phone on scotrail

 

[IanXC]

Unless they are an assistant (panel man) they are technically a DTCM, Duty Train Crew Manager; although we all call them TCS.

TCS = Train Crew Supervisor, responsible for managing on the day rostering and amendments

Panel man = implies a signaller grade who is not now (post privatisation, and disentanglement) uninvolved with traincrew rostering

Driver managers:
Driver Team Manager = typically but not always responsible for all of drivers performance and incidents
Driver Traincrew Manager = typically but not always a manager responsible for the HR aspects of a driver's employment
Driver Performance Manager = typically but not always a manger who is responsible for dealing with a drivers assessments and safety of theline incidents.

I guess at LNER either the DTM or DPM roles work trains on strike days.

 

[12LDA28C]

TCS = Train Crew Supervisor, responsible for managing on the day rostering and amendments

Panel man = implies a signaller grade who is not now (post privatisation, and disentanglement) uninvolved with traincrew rostering

Driver managers:
Driver Team Manager = typically but not always responsible for all of drivers performance and incidents
Driver Traincrew Manager = typically but not always a manager responsible for the HR aspects of a driver's employment
Driver Performance Manager = typically but not always a manger who is responsible for dealing with a drivers assessments and safety of theline incidents.

I guess at LNER either the DTM or DPM roles work trains on strike days.

A Panel Man is usually a driver (or other grade) who is trained to cover vacancies in the Train Crew Supervisor roster, it is nothing to do with Signalling.

 

[Moonshot]

Worth noting that ASLEF have banned RDW at Northern from end of this month for pretty much the same reasons as being discussed on here. Assuming that the issues are not resolved, then weekend rail travel in the north is going to be poor until further notice

 

[IanXC]

A Panel Man is usually a driver (or other grade) who is trained to cover vacancies in the Train Crew Supervisor roster, it is nothing to do with Signalling.

Interesting. A relief TCS then?

Never heard of the word 'panel' being used in connection with any role that doesnt involve signalling.

 

[Class 170101]

Nearly everyone gets a work phone, this is what it's for.

Seriously? I never realised that. Things have certainly changed since I left the UK.

Pretty much standard where I am caused by covid and people working from home so they need to contact / be contacted.

 

[12LDA28C]

Interesting. A relief TCS then?

Never heard of the word 'panel' being used in connection with any role that doesnt involve signalling.

Basically yes although they will be employed full time in another role and only used to cover the TCS as required when all other avenues have been exhausted.

 

[43066]

A Panel Man is usually a driver who is trained to cover vacancies in the Train Crew Supervisor roster,

I’ve never come across drivers doing that. Where do I sign up .

Doing platform plans, watching track diagrams and shouting (good naturedly) at the platform staff over a walkie talkie looks like great fun, and a change to the day job! Although having to go into the messroom and ask drivers to split/attach and cover jobs perhaps less so.

Sadly our TCS positions - if empty - are covered by platform staff who can act up, which to be fair makes more sense given their skill set. Fair to say the role is under threat in the long term, and before the RMT prevailed a year or so ago the permanent TCSs looked set to be made into platform staff.

 

[chuff chuff]

I’ve never come across drivers doing that. Where do I sign up .

Been thirty odd years since I've seen a driver on the 'panel' pretty much always guards that fill in nowadays.

 

[LowLevel]

I’ve never come across drivers doing that. Where do I sign up .

Doing platform plans, watching track diagrams and shouting (good naturedly) at the platform staff over a walkie talkie looks like great fun, and a change to the day job! Although having to go into the messroom and ask drivers to split/attach and cover jobs perhaps less so.

Sadly our TCS positions - if empty - are covered by platform staff who can act up, which to be fair makes more sense given their skill set. Fair to say the role is under threat in the long term, and before the RMT prevailed a year or so ago the permanent TCSs looked set to be made into platform staff.

It's the Duty Resource Centre Manager/Duty Train Crew Manager role in question. We've had both drivers and guards deputise in those roles over the years.

 

[43066]

It's the Duty Resource Centre Manager/Duty Train Crew Manager role in question. We've had both drivers and guards deputise in those roles over the years.

We still have bona fide TCSs at the southern end of our parish! A permanent roster of three. I gather they went years ago at your location, sadly.

Apologies, off topic for the discussion, but interesting nonetheless.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Worth noting that ASLEF have banned RDW at Northern from end of this month for pretty much the same reasons as being discussed on here. Assuming that the issues are not resolved, then weekend rail travel in the north is going to be poor until further notice

Another OLR operator their track record isn't looking too good on the industrial relations front

 

[Bald Rick]

Maybe the railway should employ enough staff to cover all the shifts, then, with a proper on-call rota (as airlines do) to cover any where someone might not show up unexpectedly.

Indeed, isn't the failure to do this at the root of rather a lot of problems?

Generally the railway does employ enough staff to cover all the shifts, with spare cover as well. As I said elsewhere, most TOCs have more drivers now than they ever have had, despite - in most cases - running fewer services than 5 years ago. The two main things that have changed is that absence rates have increased - for some TOCs much more than others - and that the willingness of drivers to work overtime and rest days is less than it was, in some cases that has happened very suddenly, and well outside any timescale where recruitment to back fill is realistic.

Some TOCs are now recruiting and training huge numbers of drivers … but that takes time.

 

[LowLevel]

We still have bona fide TCSs at the southern end of our parish! A permanent roster of three. I gather they went years ago at your location, sadly.

Nah, they're still there, just called Duty Train Crew Managers. They do the on the day resourcing for the regional routes, they sit behind a window at Nottingham, manage the notice cases etc.

The Intercity Derby Resource Centre Managers who do the same in terms of allocations of traincrew cover Regional nights from Derby as the Nottingham based staff don't do nights.

All to do with managing and allocating traincrew to services, rather than managing platforms and platform staff.

That side of things does still exist locally - looking after platforming, directing platform staff etc - but it has different names at each location, either being down to the station supervisor, operations supervisor, station coordinator or whatever else they might be called.

It's all a bit messy as who does what where is entirely dependent on where it is.

Both the Nottingham Ops Supervisor (who manages platforms and unit allocations locally with the fleet controller and signaller) and is the designated person in charge of the station) and the Duty Train Crew Manager (who allocates train crew on the day taking into account disruption, sickness etc) have/had deputies who are drivers and guards, believe it or not.

 

[Indistinct]

Allowance might be the wrong word, but I have been told that they get some sort of payment if they get called when off duty regardless if they accept the overtime or not.

There is a 1 hour payment made but only if you accept the request. This is normally for moving you off rostered turn/more than 4 hours from spare etc. It’s almost always via email and if you accept you are paid 1 hour for each turn.

 

[sheff1]

Generally the railway does employ enough staff to cover all the shifts, with spare cover as well.

The fact that virtually every time I travel some scheduled trains will be cancelled " due to a shortage of train crew" suggests otherwise.

 

[43066]

Generally the railway does employ enough staff to cover all the shifts, with spare cover as well.

I accept you will have more comprehensive figures but, based on nearly a decade in the industry across two TOCs, I wouldn’t say that’s ever been my the case “on the ground”, in my experience, even prior to Covid. Certainly not for drivers. Many old hands have observed that heavy reliance on overtime has been a perennial feature of the industry since the days of BR - and some of them have been on the job since the 1970s! There are a lot of gaps covered through goodwill, overtime kings stepping up etc.

Some TOCs are now recruiting and training huge numbers of drivers … but that takes time.

Of course Covid also accelerated retirements, so it’s difficult to know the true picture as you need to know what % is leaving in any given year. That is to a large extent unknown, and of course might accelerate now that the dispute is (hopefully) settled, especially given the age profile of the workforce.

The Intercity Derby Resource Centre Managers who do the same in terms of allocations of traincrew cover Regional nights from Derby as the Nottingham based staff don't do nights.

All to do with managing and allocating traincrew to services, rather than managing platforms and platform staff.

Interesting (and good to know yours are still present, albeit rebadged!). The TCSs in London are similar, they don’t manage platform staff, however they do let them know which trains are crewed, based on who is known to be in the depot etc. (they have actual visibility, unlike resources). During disruption, in conjunction with control, they will decide in which order to bell trains out, and will issue special stop/not to call orders, albeit control often listen to them, rather than the other way around, given how clued up they are.

They also take decisions re. platforming for inbounds, liaising with the signallers, and also deal with the network rail people who control the platform screens.

A fast paced and dynamic role at times, but potentially stressful.

 

[Starmill]

Maybe the railway should employ enough staff to cover all the shifts, then, with a proper on-call rota (as airlines do) to cover any where someone might not show up unexpectedly.

Indeed, isn't the failure to do this at the root of rather a lot of problems?

There's not a lot of point having an on-call rota. It'd be difficult to save any money as a lower payment for being on call compared to just being in work would have to be negotiated afresh as part of contracts. Just have more spare turns.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2024 ==

Generally the railway does employ enough staff to cover all the shifts, with spare cover as well. As I said elsewhere, most TOCs have more drivers now than they ever have had, despite - in most cases - running fewer services than 5 years ago. The two main things that have changed is that absence rates have increased - for some TOCs much more than others - and that the willingness of drivers to work overtime and rest days is less than it was, in some cases that has happened very suddenly, and well outside any timescale where recruitment to back fill is realistic.

Some TOCs are now recruiting and training huge numbers of drivers … but that takes time.

I think there's a very clear contradiction between your first sentence and the one at the end of the paragraph.

 

[Bald Rick]

I accept you will have more comprehensive figures but, based on nearly a decade in the industry across two TOCs, I wouldn’t say that’s ever been my the case for drivers, in my experience, even prior to Covid. Many old hands have observed that heavy reliance on overtime has been a perennial feature of the industry since the days of BR - and some of them have been on the job since the 1970s! There are a lot of gaps covered through goodwill/overtime kings stepping up etc.

Yes, perhaps I shoudl have been more detailed and specific. When I said…

“Generally the railway does employ enough staff to cover all the shifts, with spare cover as well.”

I should have said:

“Generally (but not universally) the railway does employ enough staff to cover all the shifts, with spare cover as well, based on agreed assumptions about the levels of absence, levels of training, and company and/or local agreements about rostering and cover for annual leave, bank holidays, weekends, etc.

I think there's a very clear contradiction between your first sentence and the one at the end of the paragraph.

Well you might think so. Perhaps my clarification above has helped. For example, I know of more than one TOC where absence has doubled compared to historical norms pre Covid. After trying for some time to manage it back down, at least one of them has bitten the bullet and started to recruit, accepting that absence rates are going to remain higher beyond the short term. Other TOCs are recruiting hard to deal with anricipated leavers. Some others are recruiting on the basis that they can not rely on rest day working to get over temporary (but significant) training requirements which have historically always been willingly accepted by the union as being dealt with by rest days. And so on.

 

[43066]

“Generally the railway does employ enough staff to cover all the shifts, with spare cover as well.”

I should have said:

“Generally (but not universally) the railway does employ enough staff to cover all the shifts, with spare cover as well, based on agreed assumptions about the levels of absence, levels of training, and company and/or local agreements about rostering and cover for annual leave, bank holidays, weekends, etc.

Fair enough. Those general assumptions do appear to have been generally wrong for a very, very long time, though!

Unfortunately for the railway there’s also a certain saying about what happens when you assume things. It involves the first three letters of the word, in conjunction with the “u” and the “me”.

 

[High Dyke]

The problem, as I see it, is sooner or later, the railway and it's workers will need support from those who do not work for it.

You might disagree - but at the end of the day, the railway exists to serve the nation, not to employ people on favourable terms.

Public perception matters - the more people perceive the railway as greedy, the less likely they'll be to speak out or refuse to vote for someone who doesn't see the benefits of the railway.

I would certainly disagree. Are you suggesting that rail workers should be employed on unfavourable terms and conditions? That's the way it came across.

Public perception does matter. Perhaps the general public should take media outlets to task about the nature of a job on the railway, encourage them to publicise both the good points and the bad points of the job. Clearly, if the general public have a better understanding of the rail industry, then they would not be so gullible to believe what they see and hear in the media.

 

[Efini92]

Fair enough. Those general assumptions do appear to have been wrong for a very, very long time, though!

Unfortunately for the railway there’s also a certain saying about what happens when you assume things. It involves the first three letters of the word, in conjunction with the “u” and the “me”.

Has there ever been a point in the history of the railways, other than maybe the rainhill trials, where overtime hasn’t been relied upon?