Class 810 for East Midlands Railway Construction/Introduction Updates

[duffield]

The maintenance on the 222’s is virtually non existent. It’s now a surprise when I have a 5 car with all engines running or a 7 car with 6 or more running. There’s so many toilets locked out it’s unbelievable. Technically we can take a 10 car with 5 engines running, make of that what you will!

Maybe we'll actually get to start a thread for 222 withdrawal in the next six months! I wonder if EMR are already identifying the worst examples, to be phased out first?

 

[vuzzeho]

Maybe we'll actually get to start a thread for 222 withdrawal in the next six months! I wonder if EMR are already identifying the worst examples, to be phased out first?

I wonder why the 222s are in such a bad condition when the (older) 221s are seemingly perfectly fine. Is it just bad maintenance?

 

[Kite159]

First 810 planned to enter service December 2025 from a ‘good’ source. Friends laughed when we placed bets and I said February 2026… Even Feb may be pushing it! They should save time now and respray them in Intercity livery ready for end of contract.

So a single unadvertised journey from Derby to Chesterfield on the 31st December then

 

[Trainman40083]

I travelled on a 222 last week. Tip up seat covered in a bag with hand written notice. "Seat broken. Do not use".

 

[QSK19]

What makes me worried is how trashed the 810s are going to get? There seems to be no real interest in maintaining a good internal condition across EMR’s fleet (the increasingly shabby nature of the 222s and highly-delayed refurbishments being symbolic).

It’s almost like EMR don’t deserve the 810s (when they come eventually!) - they’ll receive gleaming trains, but they’ll get neglected and worn out within months!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

So a single unadvertised journey from Derby to Chesterfield on the 31st December then

And then a subsequent false claim of being the first 8 series train to arrive into STP in passenger service (HT 802s have that honour, of course)

 

[800001]

What makes me worried is how trashed the 810s are going to get? There seems to be no real interest in maintaining a good internal condition across EMR’s fleet (the increasingly shabby nature of the 222s and highly-delayed refurbishments being symbolic).

It’s almost like EMR don’t deserve the 810s (when they come eventually!) - they’ll receive gleaming trains, but they’ll get neglected and worn out within months!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==


And then a subsequent false claim of being the first 8 series train to arrive into STP in passenger service (HT 802s have that honour, of course)

Hitachi will Maintain the new fleet and they have good standards, and very stringent kpi’s about train presentation.

 

[QSK19]

Hitachi will Maintain the new fleet and they have good standards, and very stringent kpi’s about train presentation.

That’s good and reassuring news. Bodes well in this respect then!

 

[43055]

I wonder why the 222s are in such a bad condition when the (older) 221s are seemingly perfectly fine. Is it just bad maintenance?

The diagrams have got more intense since the HST's left and 360's introduced. Then the 180's left which was another 3 trains to cover which means there is probably little time to maintain the fleet.

 

[AndrewJM70]

A source on the inside has told me March 2025 “at the latest” for the first set entering service.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Welcome to our world - Class 701 ordered 2017, in service due 2019, still only a token single diagram in the latter half of 2024.
(And since they were all supposed to be in service by the end of 2019, Covid is even less of a good excuse)

Just remember that somewhere else in the multiverse, EMR placed the order with Bombardier for a 125mph bi-mode Aventra. I wonder how things are over there.

 

[LowLevel]

A source on the inside has told me March 2025 “at the latest” for the first set entering service.

Public service? Absolutely not.

 

[43066]

Public service? Absolutely not.

Indeed. “some time in 2025” for crew training commencement is the best I’ve heard internally, and there is still no fixed date as it depends on unit acceptance etc. And they need five accepted to begin training AIUI.

So it’s just about conceivable they might start introducing them into the timetable in the latter half of 2025. Whatever happens, the full fleet clearly wont be in service until 2026.

 

[QSK19]

Just remember that somewhere else in the multiverse, EMR placed the order with Bombardier for a 125mph bi-mode Aventra. I wonder how things are over there.

Top of the reliability charts. 360s binned in favour of a follow-on order for EMU Aventras. The whole Regional fleet gets replaced by new 19x/23x stock. MML fully electrified by now. Ivanhoe services run on Sundays.

Ah all the stuff that’s happening in the parallel universe at ‘Rail East Midlands’

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==

A source on the inside has told me March 2025 “at the latest” for the first set entering service.

As others have said, that would be very hard to believe - almost certainly impossible to get to that stage in 7 months considering all the delays up to now. Could March 2025 be when the first set is handed over to EMR? Definitely not into service, though.

 

[43066]

360s binned

We can but dream!

 

[Nottingham59]

And they need five accepted to begin training AIUI.

Just as a matter of interest, why can't they start training when they get the first one?

 

[43066]

Just as a matter of interest, why can't they start training when they get the first one?

Several hundred crew to take off roster and train, so they need two static units for the traction courses, with one each to be placed on the depots at Kettering and Derby. Then two units to be driven on the mainline on training diagrams, with one spare AIUI.

You wouldn’t be able to do all elements of the training with just one unit, and it wouldn’t really make sense to pull people off roster until the training can be done in earnest.

 

[Spartacus]

Just remember that somewhere else in the multiverse, EMR placed the order with Bombardier for a 125mph bi-mode Aventra. I wonder how things are over there.

They're based usefully close to Litchurch Lane for when they're regularly returned for remedial work

 

[Sheldonian]

Railway world has gone mad. Nobody seems to get a grip on this.
Why on earth should new trains be delayed by this extent.
Happens everytime. Almost obsolete tech by the time they are entering service.

 

[Nottingham59]

Railway world has gone mad. Nobody seems to get a grip on this.
Why on earth should new trains be delayed by this extent.
Happens everytime. Almost obsolete tech by the time they are entering service.

It's because the industry was structured back in 1997 into small purchasing units, each ordering tiny numbers of custom designs for their own mini-fleets.

In a sane world, GB loading gauge fleets would be ordered on a national scale and designed to go anywhere, so that they could be cascaded around the network as needed. Think how the HSTs were built.

And if a single London terminus, like St Pancras, had 240m platforms, when the GB standard length for Intercity trainsets is 260-265m (11-car Pendolino, 2x800 etc.), then they would have either lengthened the platforms at STP to 260m, or ordered 9-car standard IETs (9x26m = 234m) for the line.

 

[Merle Haggard]

It's because the industry was structured back in 1997 into small purchasing units, each ordering tiny numbers of custom designs for their own mini-fleets.

In a sane world, GB loading gauge fleets would be ordered on a national scale and designed to go anywhere, so that they could be cascaded around the network as needed. Think how the HSTs were built.

And if a single London terminus, like St Pancras, had 240m platforms, when the GB standard length for Intercity trainsets is 260-265m (11-car Pendolino, 2x800 etc.), then they would have either lengthened the platforms at STP to 260m, or ordered 9-car standard IETs (9x26m = 234m) for the line.

In the St Pancras rebuilding, I wonder why this wasn't taken into account in the specification.
There seems to be no reason why the MML platforms could not have been built projecting 20 -25m further South. Might have meant one less shop though.

 

[Spartacus]

It's because the industry was structured back in 1997 into small purchasing units, each ordering tiny numbers of custom designs for their own mini-fleets.

In a sane world, GB loading gauge fleets would be ordered on a national scale and designed to go anywhere, so that they could be cascaded around the network as needed. Think how the HSTs were built.

And if a single London terminus, like St Pancras, had 240m platforms, when the GB standard length for Intercity trainsets is 260-265m (11-car Pendolino, 2x800 etc.), then they would have either lengthened the platforms at STP to 260m, or ordered 9-car standard IETs (9x26m = 234m) for the line.

I'm sure we don't need to go over all this yet again, surely?

 

[Nottingham59]

I'm sure we don't need to go over all this yet again, surely?

Not in this thread

 

[Bald Rick]

when the GB standard length for Intercity trainsets is 260-265m (11-car Pendolino, 2x800 etc.)

In the St Pancras rebuilding, I wonder why this wasn't taken into account in the specification.

Because there isn’t, and has never been, a GB standard length for an intercity train set.

 

[43066]

Because there isn’t, and has never been, a GB standard length for an intercity train set.

It’s a pity they weren’t able to make the Midland platforms as long as the domestic HS1 platforms. I assume there just wasn’t room between the original station building and the cement works etc. to the north.

 

[LYuen]

I’ve said 2026 a few times. The first time I did I said it as a throwaway joke sort of thing; but the fact there’s an actual possibility of that happening is staggering.

The only saving grace is that, presumably, the wires should have been upgraded by then, so full electric running up to South Wigston.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2024 ==


Indeed. I wouldn’t be surprised if this is the last AT300 order, not least because 6.5 years (well, like you say, 5 years to account for Covid) from order being placed to entry into service is unacceptable and hardly paints a good image of Hitachi.

Maybe Hitachi knows this and hence doesn't really care about the introduction of the 810s - no further business to be expected so what’s the point.

Maybe Hitachi negotiated with EMR on the delay?
As you noted, there is no more AT300 orders, Hitachi's next project is to construct HS2 stock which is not starting before 2025 (or at all)
Instead of accelerating the work and leave a production gap, building the train slowly will fill the gap and retain the jobs.

If production capacity is an issue, Hitachi can use their factories in Italy, like they have done with GWR.

 

[Nottingham59]

It’s a pity they weren’t able to make the Midland platforms as long as the domestic HS1 platforms. I assume there just wasn’t room between the original station building and the cement works etc. to the north.

The constraint was the old boundary wall around the grounds of St Pancras Old Church. But there seems to me to be space available at the country end of Platforms 1-4 to add around 20m. You'd have to relocate the set of points at the end of P2 a but further up the line. And space for and extra 5-10m at the buffer end. I might start another thread on that.

Because there isn’t, and has never been, a GB standard length for an intercity train set.

The IEP Train Technical Specfication (IEP Tech-Req-35) mandated a nominal minimum length for an IEP unit of 130m. A two-unit consist plus, say, a 5 metre gap for splitting/joining operations comes to 265m. Precisely the same length as an 11-car Pendolino. That's pretty "standard" in my book.

"TS223:
"Minimum length – nominally 130m, where two minimum length IEP Units coupled together form an IEP Train no longer than 260m."

 

[Bald Rick]

The IEP Train Technical Specfication (IEP Tech-Req-35) mandated a nominal minimum length for an IEP unit of 130m. A two-unit consist plus, say, a 5 metre gap for splitting/joining operations comes to 265m. Precisely the same length as an 11-car Pendolino. That's pretty "standard" in my book.

That‘s the IEP spec. Not a ‘GB Standard length’

 

[Meerkat]

It's because the industry was structured back in 1997 into small purchasing units, each ordering tiny numbers of custom designs for their own mini-fleets.

In a sane world, GB loading gauge fleets would be ordered on a national scale and designed to go anywhere, so that they could be cascaded around the network as needed. Think how the HSTs were built.

And if a single London terminus, like St Pancras, had 240m platforms, when the GB standard length for Intercity trainsets is 260-265m (11-car Pendolino, 2x800 etc.), then they would have either lengthened the platforms at STP to 260m, or ordered 9-car standard IETs (9x26m = 234m) for the line.

Please explain how that delays a variation of an existing train being brought into service?

 

[Trainbike46]

The constraint was the old boundary wall around the grounds of St Pancras Old Church. But there seems to me to be space available at the country end of Platforms 1-4 to add around 20m. You'd have to relocate the set of points at the end of P2 a but further up the line. And space for and extra 5-10m at the buffer end. I might start another thread on that.


The IEP Train Technical Specfication (IEP Tech-Req-35) mandated a nominal minimum length for an IEP unit of 130m. A two-unit consist plus, say, a 5 metre gap for splitting/joining operations comes to 265m. Precisely the same length as an 11-car Pendolino. That's pretty "standard" in my book.

Also, the IEP wasn't until well after St Pancras opened, let alone after it was designed! On top of that 12x20m=240m, or 10x24m=240m are very usual train lengths

 

[800001]

Maybe Hitachi negotiated with EMR on the delay?
As you noted, there is no more AT300 orders, Hitachi's next project is to construct HS2 stock which is not starting before 2025 (or at all)
Instead of accelerating the work and leave a production gap, building the train slowly will fill the gap and retain the jobs.

If production capacity is an issue, Hitachi can use their factories in Italy, like they have done with GWR.

Trust me, there has been no negotiation over a delay between EMR and Hitachi.

Hitachi have milestones they are contracted to achieve, and keep missing each one spectacularly!

EMR keep getting updates dates, and then they are also missed.