Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson - yet another assistance failure

[Bletchleyite]

What do the Interoperability TSIs have to say about platform heights and level boarding?
That would be the target EU standard - no doubt we had UK derogation from some of it based on historic infrastructure and trains.
We don't have to comply with EU TSIs any more, but I expect the underlying standards are still in the UK-derived equivalents.
And does HS2 and its 4 stations comply?

The standard UK platform height is 915mm, and a train designed for "level" boarding at one has a 960mm floor. (Yes, that sounds odd, but the step has to be slightly below the door because otherwise it would fall out as there would be nothing to hold it in place - in reality the result of that 55mm gap is two 22.5mm steps, which are achievable for a wheelchair user).

No, HS2 isn't compliant - which is stupid beyond redemption.

What we definitely *shouldn't* be doing is building trains with a higher floor than the ones they replace, which the CAF Civity is guilty of - it's very visible how many even able bodied people struggle with the massive step up to these compared to say 15x. Though it can be mitigated for able bodied people by having a separate step as e.g. Pendolinos and Voyagers do.

 

[irp]

What we definitely *shouldn't* be doing is building trains with a higher floor than the ones they replace, which the CAF Civity is guilty of - it's very visible how many even able bodied people struggle with the massive step up to these compared to say 15x. Though it can be mitigated for able bodied people by having a separate step as e.g. Pendolinos and Voyagers do.

Hah! Agreed. At certain stations on the London Overground (Willesden Junction, Camden Road) it feels like you need to be a highj ump or long jump Olympic Champion to get on/off for some of us - esp if carrying kit on our back±

 

[Horizon22]

Yes, that takes time, but it's pointless even starting if we don't have suitable trains to use.

The Lizzie is probably stuck, but that's the only line that presently has platforms raised for 1100ish mm boarding height, and is TfL's problem rather than that of the main network. It also carries huge numbers of passengers, so having a dispatcher on every platform it serves for the full period of service so as to put down a ramp if necessary (or having them on the trains at quieter times when the service is less frequent) is probably affordable.

Not to mention staff can be multi-skilled. For instance they could work the gateline or the ticket office until they are required to provide passenger assistance.

 

[BanburyBlue]

So what happens at unmanned stations? Can you ask for assistance at unmanned stations, or is it limited to manned stations?

 

[800001]

So what happens at unmanned stations? Can you ask for assistance at unmanned stations, or is it limited to manned stations?

Unmanned stations it becomes the responsibility of the Train Guard (if there is one)

 

[Towers]

Not to mention staff can be multi-skilled. For instance they could work the gateline or the ticket office until they are required to provide passenger assistance.

You’d then need to close the gateline every time assistance was required; this would be a particularly time consuming way of providing that assistance particularly in cases of unbooked or unexpected arrivals (as in Ms Grey-Thomspon’s case).

 

[Horizon22]

You’d then need to close the gateline every time assistance was required; this would be a particularly time consuming way of providing that assistance particularly in cases of unbooked or unexpected arrivals (as in Ms Grey-Thomspon’s case).

Only when the gateline is single-staffed. And to be fair this happens already around the network but I was replying to the point for where level boarding through infrastructure was not available and staff assistance would be needed.

Not that time-consuming - open up the gateline (~1 min), make way down to platform and correct set of doors (~7 mins), assist passenger (~1 min), provide any further assistance (if required ~3-4 mins), walk back to gateline and close gateline (~7 mins). Busier stations with more assistance passengers will have more staff anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You’d then need to close the gateline every time assistance was required; this would be a particularly time consuming way of providing that assistance particularly in cases of unbooked or unexpected arrivals (as in Ms Grey-Thomspon’s case).

You'd not need to close it, rather you would open it. The cost of fare dodging each time assistance was required is probably fairly low at the sort of small station under discussion.

At Merseyrail stations the single member of ticket office staff does everything.

 

[12LDA28C]

The levels of provision being suggested in this thread would require thousands of additional staff. Given that these staff would be railway staff, they will not be cheap at all.

The closest I can find is a "station train dispatcher" from this PDF (Review of rail industry employment costs - A report for the Office of Rail and Road, 2022), which states the following:

Why would they need to be railway staff? Could third-party contractors not be used instead? I've certainly seen security guards deploying wheelchair ramps in the past, employed by an agency, not directly by the railway.

Unmanned stations it becomes the responsibility of the Train Guard (if there is one)

Not much use on the many routes that are DOO...

 

[SECR263]

Hah! Agreed. At certain stations on the London Overground (Willesden Junction, Camden Road) it feels like you need to be a highj ump or long jump Olympic Champion to get on/off for some of us - esp if carrying kit on our back±

If you want possibly the biggest gap at any station go to P15 at Clapham Junction and wonder why no accidents. A " normal build person " would be swallowed by the gap if they fell. Due to the super elevation on track you need to step up about 9 inches while the train tilts away from you boarding over a large gap. When the 455's had handles on the out side you had something to help. When removed due to surfing? No hand hold. Who ever made that decision had nether seen why the handles were needed but h and s comes first.

 

[norbitonflyer]

If you want possibly the biggest gap at any station go to P15 at Clapham Junction and wonder why no accidents. A " normal build person " would be swallowed by the gap if they fell. Due to the super elevation on track you need to step up about 9 inches while the train tilts away from you boarding over a large gap.

The London bound platform at Norbiton is another. Even a slightly overweight person can fall right through the gap there. I know - I have done it myself.
The gap is also too wide to safely load a typical baby buggy - when the back wheels are on the platform the front wheels won't reach the train, so it has to be physically lifted over the gap.

 

[Failed Unit]

The standard UK platform height is 915mm, and a train designed for "level" boarding at one has a 960mm floor. (Yes, that sounds odd, but the step has to be slightly below the door because otherwise it would fall out as there would be nothing to hold it in place - in reality the result of that 55mm gap is two 22.5mm steps, which are achievable for a wheelchair user).

No, HS2 isn't compliant - which is stupid beyond redemption.

What we definitely *shouldn't* be doing is building trains with a higher floor than the ones they replace, which the CAF Civity is guilty of - it's very visible how many even able bodied people struggle with the massive step up to these compared to say 15x. Though it can be mitigated for able bodied people by having a separate step as e.g. Pendolinos and Voyagers do.

I must admit I have had some personal experience of this, but fortunately it is mainly good.

Recent journey from Market Rasen - Cleethorpes,
Boarding at Market Rasen onto a 170 - The passenger is fortunate enough to be able to get out the wheelchair and was able to board from the elevated hump. The guard did offer to get the ramp out.
Changing at Habrough - again 170 to 170, the passenger go on and off the train independently. The change at Habrough rather then Grimsby was because of the lift out of service at Grimsby.

Return journey was on a class 185, it happened to be stood next to a 170. It surprised me how different the stop height was. The ramp was needed to get on / off this train.
The guard on the 170 from Grimsby - Market Rasen wasn't sure which door the hump was at. As it happened we were at a door on the normal platform height which was a large step (as bad as the 185 at Grimsby). But stepping down is easier for this passenger so again not a problem. The guard offered to get the ramp out if needed.

The staff interacted with were brilliant, it was unfortunate that we were in the wrong place for the hump on the way back, but will know for next time. On thing that was a concern on the 170s is the automatic door shutting. If the guard uses their panel they disable it, otherwise someone needs to put their foot in the door to stop it attempting to close. Not sure if other modern units have the same problem.

I have found travelling with a wheelchair bound passenger my experiences of getting on / off the train are fine. The stations are more challenging with lifts out. This can be a big problem if trains skip stops. In a wheelchair it isn't that easy just to get off.

 

[danbarjon]

The attitude about disabled people is the major thing that needs to change. Every time I've gone to the assistance desk they've insisted I have to book in advance and when you've got these Accessible Travel pdfs on the websites that state "turn up and go assistance is available" and your met with the response of "Have you booked?" "You need to book it" you lose faith very rapidly. Don't even get me started on the way some LNER staff have treated wheelchair users it makes my blood boil.

 

[tehmarks]

I think what's lacking from this thread is any empathy about how it might feel to be left entirely powerless on a train with no information or understanding that someone is definitely on the way to help. Fifteen minutes is not a reasonable period of time to be left waiting for assistance in exactly the same way that it's not reasonable for a train to arrive and leave the doors locked for fifteen minutes and not let you off.

 

[danbarjon]

I think what's lacking from this thread is any empathy about how it might feel to be left entirely powerless on a train with no information or understanding that someone is definitely on the way to help. Fifteen minutes is not a reasonable period of time to be left waiting for assistance in exactly the same way that it's not reasonable for a train to arrive and leave the doors locked for fifteen minutes and not let you off.

I agree, having experienced this myself in Leeds on a Northern train it was 20 minutes but each and every minute your thinking "what if they send the train to the depot" "what if we don't get off" only for cleaning staff to find us and then get someone to get us off the train a total of 25 minutes late.

 

[Horizon22]

Why would they need to be railway staff? Could third-party contractors not be used instead? I've certainly seen security guards deploying wheelchair ramps in the past, employed by an agency, not directly by the railway.



Not much use on the many routes that are DOO...

I'm sure they could, but not sure anyone in the union(s) would be best pleased and I don't think that would solve the quality/communication issues either.

 

[Sheridan]

How long are you considering 'periodic'? Even at a major London terminal with inter-city services, trains are unlikely to have a turnaround of longer than 60 minutes - let alone being "unattended" for that long - because as I said, there are multiple staff getting on/off.

There are "periodic security sweeps" of the station building depending on categorisation of both the intensity of footfall and current DfT classification, but no need for trains.

The DfT Land Transport Security team does issue guidance on how often trains should be searched when left at termini, it varies depending on the category of station, the length of time, and the current security level. I’m not sure if the exact figures are public so I won’t post them. What I don’t know is how binding these guidelines are, or whether they’re just best practice. They certainly don’t seem to be rigidly stuck to, if at all.

 

[Lancs]

Nobody seems to have considered the legal duty of care that "the railway" has to all passengers. Instead of pointing fingers, some risk assessment style questions need asking. If there had been a fire on that train, in the station, who was responsible for the Baroness' safety?

The following thread points to staff concern receiving legal duty of care responsibilities in 2016 (although they don't seem to consider disabled passengers in this debate). https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/rail-staff-duty-of-care-implications.137646/

There is a bigger problem here that those in command need to address. An elephant on the line, so to speak. Is it is clear from comments here that there is an institutional problem with treating the issue correctly at the customer interface - heading towards discrimination.

Getting distracted by considering physically modifying all platforms, ignores more simple solutions such as all new trains being fitted with integral automated ramps close to the disabled spaces and loos. It's not hard - Ukraine has managed to do it already, even given their predicament. https://cdn.village.com.ua/the-village.com.ua/post_image-image/9Vp-IS6PYoOw5oGQTdJ3Ow-fullscreen.jpg from https://village.com.ua/village/city...ible-ukrainian-railways-quest-for-inclusivity

I also dismiss the comments from people suggesting the Baroness is essentially just making a fuss for her own ends. I believe that this could not be further from the truth. It would be remiss of her not to use her status and direct experiences to move this conversation forward.

 

[Horizon22]

The DfT Land Transport Security team does issue guidance on how often trains should be searched when left at termini, it varies depending on the category of station, the length of time, and the current security level. I’m not sure if the exact figures are public so I won’t post them. What I don’t know is how binding these guidelines are, or whether they’re just best practice. They certainly don’t seem to be rigidly stuck to, if at all.

Those responsible for such things aren't aware of these timings anyway! So yes, not rigidly stuck to at all.

As I said earlier, most of the time if a train is to be left at a terminal for an extended (for me thats +1 hour) time without any prep going on, it's often locked up anyway.

 

[Failed Unit]

The attitude about disabled people is the major thing that needs to change. Every time I've gone to the assistance desk they've insisted I have to book in advance and when you've got these Accessible Travel pdfs on the websites that state "turn up and go assistance is available" and your met with the response of "Have you booked?" "You need to book it" you lose faith very rapidly. Don't even get me started on the way some LNER staff have treated wheelchair users it makes my blood boil.

I have experienced that myself, the train in question had 2 wheelchair passengers, we were the 3rd one. In this case the train we had planned to get was cancelled and we couldn't use the replacement bus (as it was a standard coach). But the question shouldn't really be relevant in my opinion.

At the other end at Kings Cross we were walking down the platform where on of the platform staff chased after us and asked us if we needed any assistance (which to me was above the call of duty)

Most of the routes in my local area of DOO. As a rule, the staffed stations are accessible, the unstaffed ones are not anyway. Our new MP - Andy Lewin (Grants Replacement) highlight on the Great Northern Metro (Welwyn Garden City - Moorgate) only 4 stations are fully accessible. Welwyn Garden City, Hatfield and Potters Bar and Finsbury Park. (Hadley Wood is North Bound only). It surprised me, Old Street in particular as they are constantly rebuilding it. But that is a lot of other stations that need work doing to them,

 

[Falcon1200]

As far as I can see the LNER MD has apologised and said he will investigate and share the results.
So not even an explanation of the situation, let alone redress in any form.
I can see why a leading member of the paralympics movement would say the response was "not enough".

Given that the incident happened late on Monday evening, and it is still only Wednesday, it is surely not surprising that the investigation is seemingly not complete; All the staff involved must be interviewed, and there is no guarantee that those on duty on Monday were working on Tuesday; Or if they were, quite possibly they were on another late start and finish shift.

On a similar vein, if Tanni had turned up at Rugeley Trent Valley she wouldn’t have been able to access Platforms 1&2. She couldn’t travel on the Chase Line to Birmingham or the WCML to Stafford & beyond.

There are scores of stations across the UK without step free access; Just on my local line from Glasgow to Neilston, for example, this applies to Pollokshields East, Queens Park, Crosshill, Cathcart and Williamwood. And further afield, in Oxfordshire Radley one had step free access to the Up platform, but no longer because BR sold off the land for housing!

 

[12LDA28C]

I'm sure they could, but not sure anyone in the union(s) would be best pleased and I don't think that would solve the quality/communication issues either.

I'm not sure what objection 'the union(s)' could provide as long as staff were suitably trained. Often security guards are employed to cover unsocial hours when other (railway) staff are unavailable, particularly late at night and at weekends. If the result is a better service provided to the passenger then I don't see a problem.

 

[Horizon22]

I'm not sure what objection 'the union(s)' could provide as long as staff were suitably trained. Often security guards are employed to cover unsocial hours when other (railway) staff are unavailable, particularly late at night and at weekends. If the result is a better service provided to the passenger then I don't see a problem.

But would they provide a better service? It would just be replacing like for like essentially. "First to last train" station staffing has other benefits and they are not "security guards" but agency station staff doing the anti-social hours as you say. And I would question the quality of these staff versus permanent employees as they seem to have the bare minimum of training with little local station knowledge as they get moved about as required.

 

[12LDA28C]

But would they provide a better service? It would just be replacing like for like essentially. "First to last train" station staffing has other benefits and they are not "security guards" but agency station staff doing the anti-social hours as you say. And I would question the quality of these staff versus permanent employees as they seem to have the bare minimum of training with little local station knowledge as they get moved about as required.

At locations where first to last train station staffing is not in place then these agency staff can provide cover not supplied by TOC staff. And whilst some may well be agency station staff, others most certainly are security staff, employed to discourage ticketless travel, antisocial behaviour and so on.

 

[Horizon22]

At locations where first to last train station staffing is not in place then these agency staff can provide cover not supplied by TOC staff. And whilst some may well be agency station staff, others most certainly are security staff, employed to discourage ticketless travel, antisocial behaviour and so on.

But where there is already first-to-last staffing normally is for DOO operation and one of the exact reasons it was required was for assisted travel purposes. Otherwise it's provided by the guard and I'm sure locally station staff and train crew know or are able to identify when/if staff will no longer be at the station.

Are you saying that this current arrangement inadequate for assisted travel requirements? Bare in mind that would in no way have resolved the issue of this thread at a busy London terminus where there are lots of staff, even past 2200.

I just know that the union(s) sometimes have an issue with agency staff and 'undercutting' permanent staff, but you can't have it both ways I guess if it's "agency or nobody". I just don't think it's on the cards nor a resolution to the issue anyway.

 

[12LDA28C]

But where there is already first-to-last staffing normally is for DOO operation and one of the exact reasons it was required was for assisted travel purposes. Otherwise it's provided by the guard and I'm sure locally station staff and train crew know or are able to identify when/if staff will no longer be at the station.

Are you saying that this current arrangement inadequate for assisted travel requirements? Bare in mind that would in no way have resolved the issue of this thread at a busy London terminus where there are lots of staff, even past 2200.

I just know that the union(s) sometimes have an issue with agency staff and 'undercutting' permanent staff, but you can't have it both ways I guess if it's "agency or nobody". I just don't think it's on the cards nor a resolution to the issue anyway.

There are certainly plenty of stations on DOO routes where there are no station staff provided outside booking office opening times and the shortfall in provision of passenger assistance is picked up by agency staff whose main responsibilities are not necessarily platform-based. Basically I'm saying that yes, agency is better than nobody in that situation but as you say this would have had no bearing on the specific event being discussed on this thread.

 

[Megafuss]

I think what's lacking from this thread is any empathy about how it might feel to be left entirely powerless on a train with no information or understanding that someone is definitely on the way to help. Fifteen minutes is not a reasonable period of time to be left waiting for assistance in exactly the same way that it's not reasonable for a train to arrive and leave the doors locked for fifteen minutes and not let you off.

I listened to TGT being interviewed this morning and it was heartbreaking in some ways.

She made exactly the same point as you. It's a turn up and go railway, so she should be allowed to turn up and go as well. It's not her fault the various apps that TOCs use are rubbish (paraphrasing what she said)

 

[Krokodil]

Unmanned stations it becomes the responsibility of the Train Guard (if there is one)

What happens when a DOO train stops at an unstaffed station? Or is this where the operator washes their hands and says "you didn't plan your urgent appointment 24hrs in advance, so tough"

If you want possibly the biggest gap at any station go to P15 at Clapham Junction and wonder why no accidents. A " normal build person " would be swallowed by the gap if they fell. Due to the super elevation on track you need to step up about 9 inches while the train tilts away from you boarding over a large gap. When the 455's had handles on the out side you had something to help. When removed due to surfing? No hand hold. Who ever made that decision had nether seen why the handles were needed but h and s comes first.

Have you ever been to Earlestown?

I think what's lacking from this thread is any empathy about how it might feel to be left entirely powerless on a train with no information or understanding that someone is definitely on the way to help. Fifteen minutes is not a reasonable period of time to be left waiting for assistance in exactly the same way that it's not reasonable for a train to arrive and leave the doors locked for fifteen minutes and not let you off.

Some of us did make that point earlier.

 

[TUC]

The attitude about disabled people is the major thing that needs to change. Every time I've gone to the assistance desk they've insisted I have to book in advance and when you've got these Accessible Travel pdfs on the websites that state "turn up and go assistance is available" and your met with the response of "Have you booked?" "You need to book it" you lose faith very rapidly. Don't even get me started on the way some LNER staff have treated wheelchair users it makes my blood boil.

Not always the case. My wife has turned up without booking at Halifax on several occasions and the staff have been unfailingly helpful.

 

[MotCO]

Nobody seems to have considered the legal duty of care that "the railway" has to all passengers. Instead of pointing fingers, some risk assessment style questions need asking. If there had been a fire on that train, in the station, who was responsible for the Baroness' safety?

What if there was a fire not in a station? Who is responsible for the safe evacuation of any disabled passenger?

I think what's lacking from this thread is any empathy about how it might feel to be left entirely powerless on a train with no information or understanding that someone is definitely on the way to help. Fifteen minutes is not a reasonable period of time to be left waiting for assistance in exactly the same way that it's not reasonable for a train to arrive and leave the doors locked for fifteen minutes and not let you off.

Can the app be improved to send messages to the passenger to say that help is on its way / has been delayed but we know you're waiting sort of thing?