Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson - yet another assistance failure

[JamesT]

I can't see how that was ever going to be achievable. There is, still, no standardisation of floor height and thus raising or lowering a platform for one class of train may make matters worse for another.

Isn't this what has happened at Ealing Broadway, that Crossrail trains have a floor height suited to the core stations, which are the same height as those built for HEx, and higher than is typical on GWR, which still runs trains with a different floor height. (Not sure of the detail)
Elsewhere, low floor 755s have to share platforms with EMR 158s at Ely and Thameslink 700s at Cambridge.

Although the Elizabeth Line platforms are higher than standard and the Class 345s have a floor height to match, this height is roughly the same as most existing rolling stock.
The problem with Ealing Broadway is that it has platforms even lower than the standard so there is a larger gap than normal. This gap was there before with previous rolling stock but the Elizabeth Line has given an expectation that things would be better.
The craziest part is that Ealing Broadway was refurbished before those trains started calling and the opportunity was there to bring it up to standard.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can't see how that was ever going to be achievable. There is, still, no standardisation of floor height and thus raising or lowering a platform for one class of train may make matters worse for another.

915mm platforms and 960mm floor (it has to be slightly higher so the step can be fitted) is basically the standard now.

Isn't this what has happened at Ealing Broadway, that Crossrail trains have a floor height suited to the core stations, which are the same height as those built for HEx, and higher than is typical on GWR, which still runs trains with a different floor height. (Not sure of the detail)

A stupid piece of design, that, which has locked in inaccessibilty forever.

 

[rs101]

On a similar vein, if Tanni had turned up at Rugeley Trent Valley she wouldn’t have been able to access Platforms 1&2. She couldn’t travel on the Chase Line to Birmingham or the WCML to Stafford & beyond. For years the local Conservative Member of Parliament has been campaigning for disabled access with no success. Now she is out of office it’s probably back to square one.

Much the same at Colchester. There's a stairlift (which is often out of action) at the ticket office side, but a proper lift on the other platform. As someone with mobility issues, but not disabled (awaiting surgery on a knee problem), I have no real choice but to climb the stairs. It's also a problem for those with luggage or buggies.

 

[bleeder4]

It's a sorry state of affairs where people can't assist her because they "don't have insurance". It's just basic human decency. If I saw someone needing help I wouldn't hesitate to assist them. I wouldn't say "Sorry, can't help as I don't have insurance". Some people are so scared of getting sued if they mess it up that they're encouraging people to suffer instead.

 

[BrianW]

Although the Elizabeth Line platforms are higher than standard and the Class 345s have a floor height to match, this height is roughly the same as most existing rolling stock.
The problem with Ealing Broadway is that it has platforms even lower than the standard so there is a larger gap than normal. This gap was there before with previous rolling stock but the Elizabeth Line has given an expectation that things would be better.
The craziest part is that Ealing Broadway was refurbished before those trains started calling and the opportunity was there to bring it up to standard.

Tanni Grey-Thompson was a board member of Transport for London from 2008 to 2018 according to Wikipedia.

 

[Meole]

Thoughtless passengers getting off the train leaving a wheelchair occupant alone should be ashamed of themselves, typical modern attitude.

 

[Towers]

It's a sorry state of affairs where people can't assist her because they "don't have insurance". It's just basic human decency. If I saw someone needing help I wouldn't hesitate to assist them. I wouldn't say "Sorry, can't help as I don't have insurance". Some people are so scared of getting sued if they mess it up that they're encouraging people to suffer instead.

It won’t be “insurance”, it’ll be training. I really don’t think you can criticise a low paid cleaner for not wanting to risk being sacked; as discussed already you would hope that they attempted to summon the appropriate assistance and it hasn’t been stated that they didn’t, but they are not at fault in any way for not deploying a ramp.

 

[wilbers]

Thoughtless passengers getting off the train leaving a wheelchair occupant alone should be ashamed of themselves, typical modern attitude.

..but if assistance was expected in 5 minutes then none of them would have been asked for help, and if any had asked then the answer would probably have been that someone was on their way (in the expectation that they actually were). After 5 minutes, unlikely any other passengers were still there.

 

[Malaxa]

As for level boarding everywhere soon, that’s for the birds. The country hasn’t got the money to sort that one out, for now. There are more pressing priorities for public funds.

Indeed. The incident as described to the BBC was nothing to do with level boarding yet that issue is the catalyst is now for the Baroness wanting to write to the Secretary of State for Transport. Perhaps Louise Haigh can appear on the Today programme with costings mapped out for the listeners for this vague wish list.

 

[800001]

Indeed. The incident as described to the BBC was nothing to do with level boarding yet that issue is the catalyst is now for the Baroness wanting to write to the Secretary of State for Transport. Perhaps Louise Haigh can appear on the Today programme with costings mapped out for the listeners for this vague wish list.

Just pondering the subject of level boarding.

Greater Anglia 745/755 units cover a great area, and go to Peterborough on ECML, and Ely, Cambridge etc, how come level boarding trains work there ok where they also share route with several freight services?

Is it a possibility (hypothetically) that Stadler units would be suitable for eg the whole length of ECML to provide level boarding?

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed. The incident as described to the BBC was nothing to do with level boarding

But it was. The whole reason the passenger cannot alight from the train is because of a lack of level boarding. If they could do it themselves, you wouldn’t need someone to assist the passenger off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it a possibility (hypothetically) that Stadler units would be suitable for eg the whole length of ECML to provide level boarding?

915mm platform/960mm floor would work throughout the network.

 

[jfowkes]

Just pondering the subject of level boarding.

Greater Anglia 745/755 units cover a great area, and go to Peterborough on ECML, and Ely, Cambridge etc, how come level boarding trains work there ok where they also share route with several freight services?

Is it a possibility (hypothetically) that Stadler units would be suitable for eg the whole length of ECML to provide level boarding?

It's perfectly possible and in my opinion should have been part of the specification when the IETs were ordered. Now we're stuck with staff&ramps for 40-50 years.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

As far as I can see the LNER MD has apologised and said he will investigate and share the results.
So not even an explanation of the situation, let alone redress in any form.
I can see why a leading member of the paralympics movement would say the response was "not enough".
Of course David Horne may be having problems getting to the root cause.

TGT mentions an apology from DfT and a meeting with them.
That's very likely to be Peter Hendy, Rail Minister, who will know all about the industry issues on the subject.
The wider industry does continue to make step-free access a priority in station upgrades (eg lifts instead of stairs), sometimes at great cost.
TGT also is or used to be on the TfL Board and other representative bodies.

Lord Hendy responded directly to her on Twitter yesterday and from his tone it sounds very much as if he is on the warpath over this.

That’s terrible. The railway should do better and we will. Apologies. Peter

https://x.com/LordPeterHendy/status/1828346924707037222

 

[DMckduck]

It's a sorry state of affairs where people can't assist her because they "don't have insurance". It's just basic human decency. If I saw someone needing help I wouldn't hesitate to assist them. I wouldn't say "Sorry, can't help as I don't have insurance". Some people are so scared of getting sued if they mess it up that they're encouraging people to suffer instead.

Think you need to look at the bigger picture here, cleaners messing about with ramps not knowing how to deploy it correctly putting the passenger at risk is not a good idea. If you aren't trained to deploy a ramp and are caught doing it, you could land yourself in hot water whatever the grade.

The cleaner would have been sacked by the way if they done what you suggest

 

[Towers]

Level boarding is extremely unlikely to be a widespread feature of the UK rail network for generations yet, it is a waste of a good debate to make that the central issue. The system is what it is, there are a multitude of changes which could be made to improve it and that is where the discussion needs to go.

Think you need to look at the bigger picture here, cleaners messing about with ramps not knowing how to deploy it correctly putting the passenger at risk is not a good idea. If you aren't trained to deploy a ramp and are caught doing it, you could land yourself in hot water whatever the grade.

The cleaner would have been sacked by the way if they done what you suggest

Indeed; very much this.

 

[RT4038]

Think you need to look at the bigger picture here, cleaners messing about with ramps not knowing how to deploy it correctly putting the passenger at risk is not a good idea. If you aren't trained to deploy a ramp and are caught doing it, you could land yourself in hot water whatever the grade.

The cleaner would have been sacked by the way if they done what you suggest

Train the cleaners then!

 

[Thirteen]

Train the cleaners then!

I don't think it's as simple as train the cleaners, they're usually not employed by the TOCs directly.

 

[HSTEd]

Level boarding is extremely unlikely to be a widespread feature of the UK rail network for generations yet, it is a waste of a good debate to make that the central issue. The system is what it is, there are a multitude of changes which could be made to improve it and that is where the discussion needs to go.

It could be, if the government commanded it be so.
Rolling stock is now sufficiently cheap compared to the rest of the industy that doing that is probably cheaper than substantially increasing the number of staff required for passenger assistance in the medium/long term!

The entire rolling stock fleet is only 15,220 carriages, a few hundred of which are already done.
Several thousand rolling stock vehicles will have to be ordered in the next few years.

 

[Towers]

It could be, if the government commanded it be so.
Rolling stock is now sufficiently cheap compared to the rest of the industy that doing that is probably cheaper than substantially increasing the number of staff required for passenger assistance in the medium/long term!

The entire rolling stock fleet is only 15,220 carriages, a few hundred of which are already done.
Several thousand rolling stock vehicles will have to be ordered in the next few years.

What are you suggesting, susbtantial modifications to thousands of rail vehicles? Plus still plenty of platform surface works and clearance testing to ensure that auto ramps can be safely deployed at every location. That’s still a huge amount of time and money required, and highly unlikely to be cheaper than assistance staff.

 

[MotCO]

I don't think it's as simple as train the cleaners, they're usually not employed by the TOCs directly.

As an outsider, I do not know how easy it is to deploy the ramps, but I suspect that it maybe easy to get your fingers trapped or worse, or if the ramp was not properly deployed, a wheelchair user could fall off the ramp. I would rather a limited number of staff were properly trained and use the ramps on a frequent basis.

I also think that the cleaners' only role would be to try to establish if help was required and if so, summon assistance rather than do the job themselves.

 

[43066]

As a general point I think she is highlighting an important issue; all too often assistance doesn’t work as it’s intended to.

I’ve seen this on a few occasions where I’ve spotted a wheelchair user on the train while changing ends, I have then spoken to them, apologised profusely and found someone to take them off. I’ve also stopped out of course on more than one occasion where a wheelchair user has been over-carried due to assistance not turning up - of course this is highly embarrassing for the person concerned.

It is generally down to the usual mix of lack of resource and poor communication. I don’t honestly see it changing sadly - maybe GBR can at least standardise procedures somewhat.

I really don’t think you can criticise a low paid cleaner for not wanting to risk being sacked; as discussed already you would hope that they attempted to summon the appropriate assistance

Agreed, and this is the part of the story I find a little hard to swallow, as least as it has been reported. There is no way a cleaner would simply ignore a wheelchair user. They wouldn’t help them off as they aren’t trained to do so and could potentially get the sack of something went wrong, however they would radio for assistance, or simply step off the train and find platform staff.

That suggests the cleaners in this case must have believed she was intending to travel on the train’s next service. It isn’t made clear from the report whether she actually spoke to them, or simply assumed they wouldn’t be able to physically help her so didn’t engage with them at all (which would have confirmed any assumption that she was a northbound passenger). Nor is it clear why she didn’t pull the passcom before deciding to crawl off the train, as it sounds as though by that stage the northbound crew were on the train and would have been alerted.

 

[Towers]

Agreed, and this is the part of the story I find a little hard to swallow. There is no way a cleaner would simply ignore a wheelchair user. They wouldn’t help them off as they aren’t trained to do so and could potentially get the sack of something went wrong, however they would radio for assistance, or simply step off the train and find platform staff.

That suggests the cleaners in this case must have believed she was intending to travel on the train’s next service. It isn’t made clear from the report whether she actually spoke to them, or simply assumed they wouldn’t be able to physically help her so didn’t engage with them at all (which would have underlined an assumption that she was a northbound passenger). Nor is it clear why she didn’t pull the passcom before deciding to crawl off the train, as it sounds as though by that stage the northbound crew were on the train and would have been alerted.

One possibility is that the cleaners did indeed summon help, but that it was rather a long time in coming as nobody was aware of the passenger arriving on that train, and so Ms Grey-Thompson felt the need to detrain herself. That would make sense if the cleaning staff, working to a tight schedule as they do, made the call and then continued on through the train.

 

[Horizon22]

As far as I can see the LNER MD has apologised and said he will investigate and share the results.
So not even an explanation of the situation, let alone redress in any form.
I can see why a leading member of the paralympics movement would say the response was "not enough".
Of course David Horne may be having problems getting to the root cause.

They may not know everything straight away. It would be foolish to promise anything before an investigation. I would hope after that some compensation (financial or otherwise) would then be due by whichever party(ies) have failed here.

What she may want is a different matter because she has a noble aim of wanting step-free access so things like this can’t happen again but that is decades away (if fully achievable at all) even with extensive funding.

As a general point I think she is highlighting an important issue; all too often assistance doesn’t work as it’s intended to.

I’ve seen this on a few occasions where I’ve spotted a wheelchair user on the train while changing ends, I have then spoken to them, apologised profusely and found someone to take them off. I’ve also stopped out of course on more than one occasion where a wheelchair user has been over-carried due to assistance not turning up - of course this is highly embarrassing for the person concerned.

Yes this happens on DOO services and I wouldn’t say it’s routine but it’s not unheard of. The first the driver knows is someone pulling a passcom saying a passenger has not been met or has been over-carried. It might cause a few minutes delay but so be it; station teams being attributed delays can really focus minds sometimes!

Sometimes it’s a failing of the origin or destination to inform / rember to meet for a whole host of reasons. Sometimes actually the passenger has self-boarded which might have been they couldn’t see staff assistance or they were able to do so and in a rush. I’m aware Elizabeth Line and Heathrow Express (less than the former) have issues where people self-board at level stations, don’t tell anyone and then don’t get met at a destination and wonder why… There’s announcements on 345s I’ve noticed to try and prevent this.

Agreed, and this is the part of the story I find a little hard to swallow, as least as it has been reported. There is no way a cleaner would simply ignore a wheelchair user. They wouldn’t help them off as they aren’t trained to do so and could potentially get the sack of something went wrong, however they would radio for assistance, or simply step off the train and find platform staff.

That suggests the cleaners in this case must have believed she was intending to travel on the train’s next service. It isn’t made clear from the report whether she actually spoke to them, or simply assumed they wouldn’t be able to physically help her so didn’t engage with them at all (which would have confirmed any assumption that she was a northbound passenger). Nor is it clear why she didn’t pull the passcom before deciding to crawl off the train, as it sounds as though by that stage the northbound crew were on the train and would have been alerted.

Of course as with any incident there’s lots we don’t know - and probably never will - about the specifics of what happened when and who spoke to whom. But yes I imagine it was more that cleaners are trained on the ramp (you can have a nasty crush if you don’t deploy it properly and securely) and then altered platform staff but it’s probably paraphrased to “not legally able”.

 

[HSTEd]

What are you suggesting, susbtantial modifications to thousands of rail vehicles?

Well, no, I was proposing to simply accelerate the purchase of trains fitted for 915mm level boarding.
No trains without it should be ordered, and any resources available should be diverted to increasing the rate of replacement.

Once 915mm trains are available, Harrington Hump style improvements should be able to provide level boarding on every platform at reasonable cost.

That’s still a huge amount of time and money required, and highly unlikely to be cheaper than assistance staff.

The levels of provision being suggested in this thread would require thousands of additional staff. Given that these staff would be railway staff, they will not be cheap at all.

The closest I can find is a "station train dispatcher" from this PDF (Review of rail industry employment costs - A report for the Office of Rail and Road, 2022), which states the following:

Station Train Dispatcher: station train dispatchers communicate with traincrew to confirm when it is safe for train doors to close and for the train to depart the station. Staff will also provide information and assistance to customers, monitor and help manage the operation of the platform (including crowding on platforms and potential/actual safety issues) and may make announcements and undertake some light cleaning. The safety critical nature of their role influences their pay, as do shift patterns and the premiums the role attracts (station train dispatchers work early, late and weekend shifts

Apparently the average renumeration for such a role is ~£30,000, which means the cost of employment (including management etc) is probably going to be something like £60,000 or so.
Employing several thousand staff, which is what would be required for the levels of cover being suggested here, would likely cost hundreds of millions of pounds per year, for decades (if not forever).

Paying £2m/carriage for FLIRTs to make this go away starts to look rather reasonable when you start adding up the numbers!

 

[AlterEgo]

What are you suggesting, susbtantial modifications to thousands of rail vehicles? Plus still plenty of platform surface works and clearance testing to ensure that auto ramps can be safely deployed at every location. That’s still a huge amount of time and money required, and highly unlikely to be cheaper than assistance staff.

We already got rid of slammers. We should be significantly on the way to level boarding yet we aren’t, because it hasn’t been the priority it ought to be.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It could be, if the government commanded it be so.
Rolling stock is now sufficiently cheap compared to the rest of the industy that doing that is probably cheaper than substantially increasing the number of staff required for passenger assistance in the medium/long term!

The entire rolling stock fleet is only 15,220 carriages, a few hundred of which are already done.
Several thousand rolling stock vehicles will have to be ordered in the next few years.

That would only solve half the problem. Modifying every station platform (including those currently optimised for the trains that currently use them) to matvch that height would take a lot longer.

 

[800001]

We already got rid of slammers. We should be significantly on the way to level boarding yet we aren’t, because it hasn’t been the priority it ought to be.

I wish Stadler Flirts were the choice by operators instead of the Hitachi 8Xx model.

The flirt is a really good train, and if they pimped it up abit similar to how the Swiss fleet look internally. It would have made a very fitting Intercity train with level boarding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That would only solve half the problem. Modifying every station platform (including those currently optimised for the trains that currently use them) to matvch that height would take a lot longer.

Yes, that takes time, but it's pointless even starting if we don't have suitable trains to use.

The Lizzie is probably stuck, but that's the only line that presently has platforms raised for 1100ish mm boarding height, and is TfL's problem rather than that of the main network. It also carries huge numbers of passengers, so having a dispatcher on every platform it serves for the full period of service so as to put down a ramp if necessary (or having them on the trains at quieter times when the service is less frequent) is probably affordable.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What do the Interoperability TSIs have to say about platform heights and level boarding?
That would be the target EU standard - no doubt we had UK derogation from some of it based on historic infrastructure and trains.
We don't have to comply with EU TSIs any more, but I expect the underlying standards are still in the UK-derived equivalents.
And does HS2 and its 4 stations comply?