There's been some recent reports saying that used EV's are now off a similar price to their ICE comparable models. With the FT saying that a 2 year old BMW 4 series is £31,700 vs a Tesla Model 3 being £26,000 and a Polestar 2 being also around £26,000 (all the same age)
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?
- Thread starter MattA7
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
GusB
Established Member
It doesn't matter how carefully you look after your ancient cars if they don't meet modern emissions standards.
Hearsay. You need to provide better evidence.
Have you considered the impact that drilling for and extracting fossil fuels has on the environment? I'm not going to deny that mining for the various elements used in the production of EVs is damaging to the environment, but please think about the stuff that goes into a combustion-engined car; could you place your hand on your heart and say that extracting these materials has zero impact on the planet? What about the amount of energy that's required to cast engine parts? Have you forgotten about that?
Lithium ion batteries are not new technology. People say things like this and wilfully ignore the many examples of EVs doing a quarter of a million miles or more and still going strong.
A guy that your friend knows says... Hmm, I highly doubt this. Perhaps a Leaf that has been DC charged twice a day would have a "knackered" battery (no active cooling). Anything else (with liquid cooled batteries), nah. Utter nonsense.
EV batteries are "unproven"
, tell that to the Norwegians, Chinese or indeed anyone who's got one! I have 2 and they are both fantastic machines and seen to do exactly what they are supposed to day in day out with no maintenance.Oh, that one features a lot on the EV bs bingo card.
What do you imagine the environmental impact of extraction crude oil, refining it and then burning the fuel in a filthy internal combustion engine is?
Do you really think that if it was invented today the internal combustion engine would be allowed? "And what are you going to do with the combustion productions?" "Oh, just release then into the air that we all breath. Yeah there will be some ill health and death from poisonous fumes and particulates, but, meh"
Have you seen what oil extraction actually involves? Go watch some videos about shale oil and tar sands.
Even some relatively new vehicles I see smoking away on the road and river how they pass an emissions test. Filthy, horrible.
Also the stuff mined for a battery is moved over and will be recycled forever into new batteries when the car is eventually scrapped. Oil and associated position is required every time you turn the key.
Cobalt is becoming less common in batteries and sodium ion batteries are now a reality too.
I went for a test drive in a new Ford Explorer EV yesterday, first time driving an electric car. Made driving a manual petrol car again afterwards seem so old fashioned and noisy.
The electric car was lovely to drive and with the regen brake setting switched on it appeared to be very economical.
Just the cost hurdle to overcome, but I don't think it is much more expensive than the Kuga plug in hybrid.
The electric car was lovely to drive and with the regen brake setting switched on it appeared to be very economical.
Just the cost hurdle to overcome, but I don't think it is much more expensive than the Kuga plug in hybrid.
I think time will sort most of these people out who believe nonsense stories, as they'll find that friends, family and colleagues get EVs. They'll use more EVs in the form of taxis, buses and perhaps even trains.
Their jokes about the batteries exploding or not being able to charge them (when everyone else with an EV is charging just fine) will just make them look stupid.
Snow1964
Established Member
Today Vauxhall has announced prices for its new Frontera SUV and the hybrid and electric prices are the same, so looks like price difference is going.
Both versions from £23,495
Vauxhall Frontera review | Auto Express
The equal price between electric and hybrid versions is the Vauxhall Frontera’s stand-out attribute, although it offers practicality and reasonable running costs too
www.autoexpress.co.uk
Peter Sarf
Established Member
On the other hand a lot more environmentally considerate is walking and using public transport.......Lithium ion batteries are not new technology. People say things like this and wilfully ignore the many examples of EVs doing a quarter of a million miles or more and still going strong.
A guy that your friend knows says... Hmm, I highly doubt this. Perhaps a Leaf that has been DC charged twice a day would have a "knackered" battery (no active cooling). Anything else (with liquid cooled batteries), nah. Utter nonsense.
EV batteries are "unproven"
Oh, that one features a lot on the EV bs bingo card.
What do you imagine the environmental impact of extraction crude oil, refining it and then burning the fuel in a filthy internal combustion engine is?
Do you really think that if it was invented today the internal combustion engine would be allowed? "And what are you going to do with the combustion productions?" "Oh, just release then into the air that we all breath. Yeah there will be some ill health and death from poisonous fumes and particulates, but, meh"
Have you seen what oil extraction actually involves? Go watch some videos about shale oil and tar sands.
Even some relatively new vehicles I see smoking away on the road and river how they pass an emissions test. Filthy, horrible.
Also the stuff mined for a battery is moved over and will be recycled forever into new batteries when the car is eventually scrapped. Oil and associated position is required every time you turn the key.
Cobalt is becoming less common in batteries and sodium ion batteries are now a reality too.
Can toss facts and vague abuse back and forth. But I will wait and see regarding EVs vs ICEs. I have seen too much new tech shoved on people before it is mature enough.
I am sure a brand new EV could well be wonderful to drive but what does it cost and what range ?. Yesterday my friend drove us for about 350 miles in a modern ICE. The worst noise was the M25 surface noise from somewhere around the A30 to the A3 iirc (concrete) that would be no different in an EV. I wonder how we would have done it waiting for a charging point and waiting for it to charge. That will get better with time but charging provision currently does not seem adequate yet.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
For me I would like to know what secondhand EV I can get for circa £2,000 ?.Today Vauxhall has announced prices for its new Frontera SUV and the hybrid and electric prices are the same, so looks like price difference is going.
Both versions from £23,495
Vauxhall Frontera review | Auto Express
The equal price between electric and hybrid versions is the Vauxhall Frontera’s stand-out attribute, although it offers practicality and reasonable running costs too
Granted I will probably benefit from waiting till I have £4,000 for an ICE but then what does £4,000 get me for a second hand EV.
Back to the OP, is it realistic to switch to EV ? - maybe but I fear the tech is not mature enough yet.
I am interested to see how any other alternatives evolve that might allow more "fuel" for less weight.
Also I don't think EVs are going to solve congestion problems. I think we need to figure better ways of using our time and planet to reduce our need for transport. I don't see EVs reducing peoples dependence on cars - many need to get out of their bubble and walk more.
Last edited:
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It does concern me how this bothers people. Nobody should be driving for more than a couple of hours without a break. If EVs force people who weren't taking one to take one, that's a good outcome.
(My bladder wouldn't cope with that anyway!)
My petrol car will do about 400 miles per fill up. As I can't fill up on my drive, for a really long drive I'm going to need to drive to a petrol station before starting the drive. That's another plus for an EV. No having to leave earlier.
Wow, a barefaced strawman reply!
And another! The thread is about switching to EVs, - any issues about environmentally frendly alternatives such as active and public transport are irrelevant even if they are true.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
We could have stopped about half way (farthest point) so 2x 175 miles. So presumably within battery range (obviously not if the battery was old of course). I don't think we could have charged at the location. If a better location then not quick enough unless we could have left the car unattended while charging. But that would deprive others of the charging facilities if it was at a service station or petrol station where queuing for the charging facilities happens.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Same here !. - good ole nature.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
My long trips are usually planned well enough that I will be able to fill up at the end of a previous short trip. But I am lucky enough that my petrol station of choice is near enough to home to be almost always "on the way".
Last edited:
Indeed. Battery costs have fallen by approx 50% in the past year and EV drive trains have reached parity with ICE.Today Vauxhall has announced prices for its new Frontera SUV and the hybrid and electric prices are the same, so looks like price difference is going.
Both versions from £23,495
Vauxhall Frontera review | Auto Express
The equal price between electric and hybrid versions is the Vauxhall Frontera’s stand-out attribute, although it offers practicality and reasonable running costs too
You keep trying to make some point about old batteries that just isn't based in reality. They degrade about 10% in the first two years and then flat line.
There are Tesla's and MG 5s used as taxis that have done hundreds of thousands of miles and still have 90% of capacity.
An AC charge point in a car park or wherever is designed to be left unattended.
It's perfectly fine to leave a DC rapid charger unattended whilst you go for a wee, have a meal etc. it's usually possible to monitor the charge remotely either via car app or charging company app.
My electricity station of choice is on my driveway and so I start each day with a "full tank".
cactustwirly
Established Member
It's normally less than that, the range degrades significantly when it's cold or windy. You'd be lucky to travel to Derby without it running out of charge.
I've done 2 and a half hours without a break, don't see what the issue is
Well yeah, but most people need a car. That should be an EV not some polluting old ICE banger.
How long do you propose to "wait and see" for?
What evidence are you waiting for?
Depends what you buy. Ranges anywhere from 100 miles to 450 miles.
And the beauty of EV is a second hand one drives just as well as a brand new one!
You'd have popped it onto a DC rapid charger whilst you stopped for a widdle.
I haven't waited for a charge pint in well over a year, and even then it was 5 minutes.
What's the typical mission profile? How far do you typically drive in a year and on a typical day? Can you charge at home?
Why? Millions of people are driving EVs and will never go back to ICE.
Lithium and sodium batteries have been around for decades. Electric motors have been around for over 100 years (longer than ICE engines in fact).
Presumably your car has electronic fuel injection? Why is that mature enough for you when batteries and motors which have been around for longer aren't?
At the moment, the electric cars for £4k are a 10 year old Nissan Leaf or Renault Zoe, where the range isn't great and the charging is a bit slow.
I'd like an electric car with a sunroof that opens, 250 mile range and a charging rate that is faster than 50kW. On Auto Trader, a KIA Niro with this specification was £33k in October 2023 and is now £26k.
I've got a diesel which does 48mpg and I drive ~ 18k miles a year. If I had an electric car where I spent nothing on maintenance, and only ever charged it at home for 7.5p/kWhr it would have saved me £2000 a year over the cost of the diesel and ~ £600 on servicing and repairs. I'll take that over £7000 in depreciation.
I'd like an electric car with a sunroof that opens, 250 mile range and a charging rate that is faster than 50kW. On Auto Trader, a KIA Niro with this specification was £33k in October 2023 and is now £26k.
I've got a diesel which does 48mpg and I drive ~ 18k miles a year. If I had an electric car where I spent nothing on maintenance, and only ever charged it at home for 7.5p/kWhr it would have saved me £2000 a year over the cost of the diesel and ~ £600 on servicing and repairs. I'll take that over £7000 in depreciation.
Do what I did and buy used. You'll save £2k in fuel costs alone (1,704l @ £1.50/l Vs 4,500kWh @ 7.5p = £2,556 - £338 = £2,218), plus the servicing, timing belt replacement etc and have the balance of the manufacturers warranty.
And you won't be pumping horrible particulates and poisonous fumes into the air we breathe any more.
Let someone else take the initial deprecation. I tend to run cars till they are worthless and so I don't worry about residual values anyway.
That is for used cars.
I don't care much about the resale value. I have owned 5 cars in the last 36 years and sold one one of them, scrapped 3 and I'm running the other one.
I do care about the purchase price.
I don't like the 50kW charging rate for a first generation KIA Niro.
Second generation KIA Niros were introduced in 2022. In October 2023, the cheapest ones with a sunroof were £33k. Those are now £26k.
In that time I have spent £600 on servicing and repairs. £2600 is less than £7000.
If my car dies, and I'll replace it with something electric, but whilst it is still running, it is saving me money.
If you had an EV, you'd drive to somewhere you could charge a vehicle (say, something like a Gridserve or whatever) and where there would no queues (how can there be queues if nobody is buying EVs?). If you only need a rest stop to stretch legs, pop to the toilet, grab a drink or check your phone, you'll be gone once the battery is where you need it to be. As these chargers are often quite expensive (40-80p per kWh) you wouldn't charge to full. You might go to 80% or you might just do 10 minutes and charge again on your next stop.
And if you fill up at the end of a previous trip, I do hope you count the time for that when making comparisons. Even if I detour on the way home so I don't make a dedicated trip, it's a 5 minute drive home + whatever detour time + getting to the pump if there's a queue + filling up. All things considered, that's about the time some people can do a charge at a rapid charger somewhere on their journey - not before or after.
Why stop on the way home when you're going to plug in AT home and pay 7 or 7.5p per kWh to charge overnight? I do wonder where and when you can get super cheap petrol or diesel. Is it cheaper to fill up overnight, or at weekends?
True. Having no car at all is far better than an EV, let alone an ICEV. However if you must have a car, it's almost always better to have an EV.
The only exception is users who do very few miles - little old ladies who do a five mile round trip once a week may as well keep their existing car going for as long as possible.
But yes, going car-free is considerably better than either type of car.
That calculation is only valid if you get rid of the car after a year. You've already said you don't do that.
Only if I buy a car today for £33k.
If I bought a 2022 car in October 2023 it would have been £33k. If I waited until now and buy a similar 2022 car for £26k, that is a real £7k saving. I have spent £2k on diesel, and £600 on servicing and repairs for my old car, but I am still £4400 better off.
Returning to this thread with interest. I am researching a cheap second hand EV for a relative, needs to be higher than a regular hatchback to make it easier to get in/ out. I have been surprised to find loads of Peugeot e2008 and Vauxhall Mokka-e on the market, 2-3 years old, low mileage, decent spec, 200+mile range, under £15k. (Yes I know they are much the same behind the badge).
This is the same price range as a similar age / spec / petrol version of the Mokka.
For a young car that will cost next to nothing to maintain and little to run, that’s great value.
This is the same price range as a similar age / spec / petrol version of the Mokka.
For a young car that will cost next to nothing to maintain and little to run, that’s great value.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Given I am always looking at a well depreciated car it is going to be ten years old minimum - by ICE standards. I am wondering how old an EV will need to be to be down to a value of £2,000 so not really much depreciation left to go. I am concerned that maybe a lot older.
We had one big stop of eight hours during which we were nowhere near the car. Long enough to be a nuisance hogging a normal charger I assume. Not sure if a charger of any sort was going to be near anyway.
Not much mileage and maybe once a week tops. But then the odd long trip.
No driveway. No charging points in the road - yet.
It makes sense that those who have chosen to switch to EVs - provided they thought about it correctly - are unlikely to revert to ICE cars.
It is the particular kind of battery in EVs that worry me - they have not been around for as long as fuel injection. Convenience for charging will also be an issue.
Indeed £7k in depreciation over one year is eye watering - but that is why I buy older cars.
Yes I keep cars for as long as I can. But I do not buy new enough to lose over £1k pa in depreciation.
I might need a different approach to the depreciation vs maintenance equation when it comes to EVs.
On the equation front. I recall last winter the cost per mile for "fuel" ie electricity for an EV was more than for petrol !. That was/is a temporary (I hope) problem with the cost of energy while Putin rearranges Eastern Europe (hopefully unsuccessfully).
Similar for me. One write off (stolen from a station car park), three sent for scrap (ie end of life rust for all three), one too old for ULEZ (although I suspect I should have stuck with it). My latest car was a mistake/unlucky so probably going for a song (parts).
It has been easy to end up with a reliable make+model that has almost completely depreciated to scrap value. There are some good cars that go for scrap (or to "we buy any car").
My last two used up cars were Vauxhall Carltons. Second one 2013-2023 only Routine fluid services, Cambelt+water-pump (done for the cost of parts), Anti rollbar droplinks and lower arms. One breakdown (distributor cap). ULEZ meant that I let that go although the replacement has so far cost me more than I probably would have spent on ULEZ charges for five years !.
Not saying no one is buying EVs, just I don't think it is right for me and not sure how right it is for others.
What I do recall seeing was somewhere to charge where we could not leave an EV for the eight hours we were gone.
For me the local petrol stop on the way home costs 5 to 10 minutes as it is so close and actually on the way home for almost all my journeys. I confess I do find I have to force myself to go out specially for petrol so tend to fill up even if over half a tank left.
What I did see was somewhere to charge where we could not leave an EV for eight hours, Also it was not convenient for the onward non-car sortie.
I am probably in the little old lady bracket - but still able to walk a reasonable amount. I like to use a car as little as possible. Been like that most of my life but made easier by living in London. I am relatively patient so able to put up with public transport. For most long journey I use coaches as more reliable and a lot cheaper than trains (or cars). That is not a direct EV argument except that it means my car usage is not high enough to justify a newer and rapidly depreciating car.
It is because of the low usage that, decades ago, I came to the conclusion that for me fuel economy was not as important as reliability. So larger cars tend to be attractive as the market for big cars second hand seems small. I guess that anyone who thinks they can afford a big car will be able/willing to spend on a new one !. That means big cars will have depreciated very nicely before I get to them !. That is large family cars not SUVs.
For EVs it really means I have got to wait and see first. It means I am aiming for a car more than ten years old. If EVs are any good then the risk is I will have to go very old !.
Indeed. I tend to go for a much older car where there is very little depreciation left to go. I think depreciation is frighteningly high on cars within three years of age. By choosing a known reliable model I can be quite sure maintenance will not be a significant expense even if I expect the depreciation to be less tan the maintenance costs.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
That is interesting. Above my price bracket (no surprise there as would be similar for an ICE car). BUT I wonder what things look like for a ten year old EV. I assume not much available and I have no idea if the battery tech of ten years ago would be still any good now once ten years old. I assume the battery tech for newer cars (built in the last three years) could be expected to fare better once that is ten years old ?.
Last edited:
See above from various contributors. Loads of approx 10 year old Nissan Leafs and Renault Zoes available sub £5k (and some sub £3k) albeit the Leafs have basic battery management tech and no battery thermal management, so suffer from higher rates of degradation. However all perfectly serviceable, if low range (they were low range when new, though).
Further up the price scale there‘s 10 year old BMW i3s for 6-8k, whilst further up again a 10 year old Tesla S with a 300+ mile range (which it will still have) plus all the toys can be yours for £15k.
Peter Sarf
Established Member
Thanks. When did the thermal management technology/feature become normal ?.
Maybe a stupid question as I guess from what you say about Tesla it varies from make to make.
I will wait and see as from your reply it looks like a roughly 15 year old BMW i3 might be a possibility. Now to find out when they started making those.
Thermal management was right from the off. Just about everything has them except the Nissan Leaf.
The earliest i3s are 63reg. Cheapest on autotrader is sub £6k and a 15 plate.
One thing about early EVs is that they were much more likely to be second cars to have as a runabout, and therefore tend to have low mileage.
But if you want to dip your toe in the EV market, given whatyou have said and driven before, I would wait a couple of years for the first Tesla 3s to hit 7 years old. The oldest are now 5 years old, and you can get them for around £15k, albeit with lots of miles (but as @trebor79 says, battery almost as good as new). Another couple of years and they will be under £10k. But 300+ mile range, and very quick charging.
I bought my first ever car, when I was in 6th form, for a price that is the equivalent of £7k now. It then cost me a fortune to keep going. With that in mind, a car of around £10k that will cost little to run is pretty good value.
Last edited:
At the moment a ten year old EV is likely a Leaf, and while the state of health has probably levelled out and maybe the battery is good for 50-100 miles a day (for low speed city driving, it should be possible to get the most from the battery) - which will suit people as a second shopping/football practice car down the ground - that won't suit all.
But every year from now on will see more advanced cars reaching that sort of age, giving more for the money. As mentioned above, you could look at the BMW i3 (but they're holding value as they're considered really good, almost premium, small cars) or something like the Seat Mii (and the other VW group variants).
It's worth noting that the latest Leaf was available via LeaseLoco for a little over £140 a month up to a few days ago (it may well return). Now I've never liked the look of the Leaf (the newer one isn't as ugly) but that's an absolute steal. If you can save £50-100 a month on petrol, it's a no-brainer. For 3 or 4 years you'll need to pay almost nothing as servicing is dirt cheap and you'll at most need to change the tyres (depending on mileage).