Disruptive Passengers Procedure.

[Pompey00]

Not advisable; it really isn’t ideal to have the sole member of staff responsible for a train placing themselves at risk of being thumped!

On board staff are pretty much on their own these days, even things like gatelines seem to be increasingly left unstaffed and any sort of meaningful support can be hard to find. The old “I’m not moving the train” nonsense is, frankly, out of order and staff pulling that stunt are rightly liable for a b*llocking. Aside from delays there is also a duty of care issue to be considered, and attempting to force someone off of a train at a place they didn’t want to be has the potential to cause problems for all concerned.

Hopefully you mean with the unstaffed they are left open if there no staff to be operate them , or alot of stations are watched via a vhp camera system where they are monitored and the customer presses the button to speak to them and let the person in or out as they are physically not aloud to be in operation with staff there for health and safety reasons

Hopefully you mean with the unstaffed they are left open if there no staff to be operate them , or alot of stations are watched via a vhp camera system where they are monitored and the customer presses the button to speak to them and let the person in or out as they are physically not aloud to be in operation with staff there for health and safety reasons

 

[Towers]

"(ii) Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these Byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force."

I appreciate some TOCs don't allow their staff to be hands on at anytime, however that's not the case for all TOCs, It's far from ideal but on occasion it can be a very useful power especially when one individual is causing upset to the majority of the other customers. I've made use of this only a handful of times in 10 years but certainly saved huge delays awaiting police to attend.

No TOC staff should be manhandling people off of trains these days, and with very good reason. It is placing oneself at an enormous risk, both of being physically assaulted and/or losing your employment. And yes, suffering both outcomes from the same incident is entirely possible - getting yourself thumped won’t disuade the company from giving you the boot if they feel it was your own fault! Conflict Avoidance is king these days, and it means just that, anything other than turn and walk away is very difficult to justify. Getting ‘hands on’ is to be very strongly advised against unless it’s genuinely in the name of self defence!

 

[Silver Cobra]

I encountered a somewhat similar situation on Sunday afternoon, albeit it was on a rail replacement bus rather than a train (service provided by Stagecoach East on behalf of Thameslink/Great Northern).

Two passengers board the bus alongside myself upon it's arrival into Biggleswade, which was running five minutes late. As the two passengers head up to the top deck of the bus, the driver and a fellow relief driver both come charging up the stairs demanding the passengers show them their tickets entitling them to travel on the service. The passengers say that they're about to purchase tickets on their phones, to which the driver says that they should already be in possession of tickets before boarding but offers them time to purchase their tickets. After five minutes the driver asks them if they had purchased their tickets, with them responding that they're still trying to purchase them. At this point, the two drivers were starting to become rather irritated and insisting that the passengers leave the bus, as they are holding everyone up (also emphasising that they should have purchased tickets from the ticket machines at the station if they're having that much trouble buying on their phones). A stand-off ensues for a good 10 minutes with the drivers and passengers arguing, until finally the two passengers reluctantly leave the bus. By this point the bus is now 20 minutes late departing Biggleswade.

I have to say, this is the first time travelling on a rail replacement bus on this section of the ECML where drivers have insisted on checking tickets. Both the driver of the bus I used to get to Biggleswade on Sunday morning and the bus I used yesterday morning had no interest in seeing any tickets. Granted most RRB services on this route are provided by local bus and coach hire companies, whereas the bus in question was provided by Stagecoach, who I guess prefer to be more stringent on this matter.

 

[Oldgaloot]

Over twenty years ago I was on a train going up the Cobham line to Waterloo. As it was about to leave (I think) Claygate and the doors had shut, a bloke came running up, forced his way past the guard who still had his door open and gained entry to the train. The guard followed and wasn't happy but the bloke wasn't for shifting and it was all getting a little acrimonious. Another chap who must have been a policeman in plain clothes, or just on his way to or from work, came over, showed the bloke what I assume was his warrant card, told the guard to open the doors again and the bloke to get off the train and stand against the wall and calm down. Doors were then shut and train departed. Never seen anything like that before or since.

 

[DMckduck]

It seems that a determined fare dodger has a good chance of getting away with it, while people who have made honest mistakes, and the woman who couldn't get the machine to work and honestly expected to be able to pay on the train, get prosecuted.

The woman expecting to pay on the train would be able to pay on the train, a simple oh let me find the guard and ask him will do the job.

Usually the classic is revenue eventually find the person and the response is I thought I could pay on the train.

 

[185]

This type of guard will normally have previous form for getting into bother with customers over tickets.

And here lies the problem.

An assumption by many including managers that the guards who have numerous incidents, complaints against them and delay minutes attributed to disorder are troublemakers, when in reality they are the ones out there in the train dealing with passengers whilst others hide in the back... which the very same people are also keen to moan about.

As train companies, such as FirstGroup desperately try and grab every penny in profit, they are not interested one iota in the DfTs revenue income and have cut back on refilling RPI/RPA jobs, and there is little or no revenue/security/BTP support available - even at major stations for eventualities like this.

 

[Towers]

And here lies the problem.

An assumption by many including managers that the guards who have numerous incidents, complaints against them and delay minutes attributed to disorder are troublemakers, when in reality they are the ones out there in the train dealing with passengers whilst others hide in the back... which the very same people are also keen to moan about.

As train companies, such as FirstGroup desperately try and grab every penny in profit, they are not interested one iota in the DfTs revenue income and have cut back on refilling RPI/RPA jobs, and there is little or no revenue/security/BTP support available - even at major stations for eventualities like this.

Perhaps there is a clash here between the sort of attitudes that TOCs now wish to discourage, and what some colleagues view as “doing their job”?

 

[virgintrain1]

Perhaps there is a clash here between the sort of attitudes that TOCs now wish to discourage, and what some colleagues view as “doing their job”?

Or the difference between people that work in an office/WFH and people that work on the frontline. The latter facing the highest assault and antisocial behaviour for a generation.

 

[Vespa]

A few years ago we were on the last, sparsely-loaded HST out of Worcester up the Cotswold Line on a Saturday night. The guard came round and tried to check tickets. A disruptive group at the end of the carriage refused to pay, replied "nah, f—k off", and continued loudly talking among themselves.

When the train reached Evesham (because it's always Evesham), the stop wasn't announced, and indeed the train set off a minute or so early.

A few minutes later, the disruptive group realised they'd missed their stop and ran along the train shouting for the guard. No, sorry, guys, we've left and we can't go back. Yes, you are going to have to get off at Honeybourne. Yes, I agree, it is the backend of nowhere. No, there aren't any more trains tonight. Yes, you are going to have to book an expensive taxi home.

Revenge is a dish best served cold, none more colder than a station in the middle of nowhere with no trains

 

[Towers]

Or the difference between people that work in an office/WFH and people that work on the frontline. The latter facing the highest assault and antisocial behaviour for a generation.

I think there is very definitely a balance; yes some deskbound folk in any industry will inevitably suffer from a lack of up to date frontline experience, but equally everybody is very well aware that there are a minority on the railway in most locations who will be particularly good at finding trouble. Of course it should never be assumed, but sometimes the reality sadly does match the assumptions.

 

[Krokodil]

An assumption by many including managers that the guards who have numerous incidents, complaints against them and delay minutes attributed to disorder are troublemakers, when in reality they are the ones out there in the train dealing with passengers whilst others hide in the back... which the very same people are also keen to moan about.

Indeed, a conductor who avoids doing any work is one who doesn‘t get in any scrapes and doesn't get complained about.

 

[AverageJoe]

People are mentioning the driver undermining the guard but personally I think the guard should consult the driver before making such a decision.

Likely the driver will say I’ll leave it to your discretion but if it’s the drivers last trip and he has an appointment to get to then if it’s not a safety critical issue it might be best to turn a blind eye and keep the train moving.

Unfortunately there are many unsavoury characters travelling around on public transport who have little or no regard for others or authority,

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Indeed, a conductor who avoids doing any work is one who doesn‘t get in any scrapes and doesn't get complained about.

And largely gets left alone by local management, doesn't get hurt and the trains run to time.

It's not really that different to security guards in shops these days - almost all of them have a no conflict / no approach policy, just observe and report, and hope your presence is a deterrent in itself.

Even back in the late 80s, the priority order of conductor duties was Safety, Service and then Revenue. Nowadays it's probably Safety, Performance, Service and then Revenue.

Any guard regularly patrolling their train, not necessarily checking tickets (or not getting to hung up with invalid tickets) but still delivering customer service and making their presence known is unlikely to get into any real difficulty with a manager. It's the ones who sit in the back cab and do the bare minimum who are monitored.

With smartcards, PAYG, e-tickets etc - staff shouldn't really need to get involved with validity arguements. Scan it, if something is wrong, flag it up, if the system hasn't already automatically done so, and let the revenue teams in the back office handle it from the comfort of an office, and with far more tools and data available to them.

 

[sannox]

There was the Scotrail one notoriously a few years ago, where the conductor dealing with an issue said "we can stay here all night pal, I'm getting paid" and a passenger got up and threw him off.

 

[Towers]

People are mentioning the driver undermining the guard but personally I think the guard should consult the driver before making such a decision.

Likely the driver will say I’ll leave it to your discretion but if it’s the drivers last trip and he has an appointment to get to then if it’s not a safety critical issue it might be best to turn a blind eye and keep the train moving.

Unfortunately there are many unsavoury characters travelling around on public transport who have little or no regard for others or authority,

The driver won’t be moving the train without their conductor’s say-so, just as the conductor won’t be going anywhere if the driver doesn’t wish to!

A traincrew are a team who, by neccessity, work together - neither has an authority to overrule the other when it comes to whether the train moves or not. I agree that it is basic professionalism to stay in touch, however there are instances (not ticket disputes!) where the guard may simply inform the driver that the train is awaiting assistance from whomever (police, ambulance etc), just as the driver will advise the guard in some instances that the train will not be proceeding for whatever reason.

There was the Scotrail one notoriously a few years ago, where the conductor dealing with an issue said "we can stay here all night pal, I'm getting paid" and a passenger got up and threw him off.

Firmly into sizeable b*llocking’ territory nowadays, and very possibly back then too!

 

[AverageJoe]

The driver won’t be moving the train without their conductor’s say-so, just as the conductor won’t be going anywhere if the driver doesn’t wish to!

A traincrew are a team who, by neccessity, work together - neither has an authority to overrule the other when it comes to whether the train moves or not. I agree that it is basic professionalism to stay in touch, however there are instances (not ticket disputes!) where the guard may simply inform the driver that the train is awaiting assistance from whomever (police, ambulance etc), just as the driver will advise the guard in some instances that the train will not be proceeding for whatever reason.


Firmly into sizeable b*llocking’ territory nowadays, and very possibly back then too!

Being a member of Traincrew I understand how it works.

And in the case of someone sat in first class u wouldn’t expect the guard to hold the train, but if he really wanted to prove a point to the passengers I would prefer him to run it by me first.

 

[Flange Squeal]

In response to some responses about the threat of British Transport Police (BTP) being a deterrent, in my experience I have found this to not bother what I have found to be a quite substantial number of such individuals. It's not been uncommon to get sarcastic responses along the lines of "Yeah, what you gonna do, phone BTP?" with a big smug grin and chuckle with their mates. Sometimes responding with a line like "Nah, I'm going for xxx Constabulary" has seen the situation take a sudden reversal of fortunes and them get off (even if it is reluctantly and with a load of verbal abuse to not be seen to lose face completely). One can only presume because they'd had more serious dealings with what they deemed to be the 'real police', so that was suddenly more of a concern to them.

 

[sannox]

Firmly into sizeable b*llocking’ territory nowadays, and very possibly back then too!

I think it was then. Conductors/Guards are a little helpless in these situations

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16954147

Scottish authorities have decided not to prosecute a passenger who removed an alleged fare dodger from a train.

 

[Towers]

Being a member of Traincrew I understand how it works.

And in the case of someone sat in first class u wouldn’t expect the guard to hold the train, but if he really wanted to prove a point to the passengers I would prefer him to run it by me first.

Of course, that’d be plain silly! But my point was that, ultimately, if your guard chooses for whatever reason they’re not ‘giving you two’, the train isn’t moving. Teamwork is, of course, everything!

I think it was then. Conductors/Guards are a little helpless in these situations

And this is why it’s so essential that guards are equipped with the skills to manage those situations without resorting to the classic, ill-advised “get off or else” ultimatum. That should always be avoided!

 

[Amlag]

Today the 1715 Exeter Ctl to Barnstaple (only a 2 car 165 unit ) was terminated at Eggesford according to RTT

“This service was cancelled between Eggesford and Barnstaple due to disorder “

Eggesford is about 20 miles from the nearest Police Stn if indeed police attendance was requested and forthcoming, by the Guard
never the less lots of innocent passengers were inconvenienced and delayed by over an hour awaiting the next train to Barnstaple to complete their rail journey in another 2 car ( 150) set ..it must have been wedged.

 

[peteb]

I've seen folks travelling on Cross Country basically sitting on the toilet the entire journey, simply vacating it when a passenger required it. However one time this happened someone must have reported it as the toilet got locked o.o.u. & I believe the fare evader was locked in the toilet till the next stop, Wolverhampton. Certainly there were a couple of BTP there waiting to meet the train but as I had a connection to make I didn't see what transpired.

 

[LowLevel]

Today the 1715 Exeter Ctl to Barnstaple (only a 2 car 165 unit ) was terminated at Eggesford according to RTT

“This service was cancelled between Eggesford and Barnstaple due to disorder “

Eggesford is about 20 miles from the nearest Police Stn if indeed police attendance was requested and forthcoming, by the Guard
never the less lots of innocent passengers were inconvenienced and delayed by over an hour awaiting the next train to Barnstaple to complete their rail journey in another 2 car ( 150) set ..it must have been wedged.

A drunken abusive passenger assaulted the guard and threatened them and other passengers with needles. Not much you can do but drop anchor and call 999 for an emergency response. Context is important, and locking the passengers in the train with a lunatic for convenience isn't the answer. It appears the person was apprehended by the police and the back working ran from Eggesford as booked.

Broken windows theory - the person in question having assaulted railway staff should be banned from the railway for life and face damaging consequences but of course they won't be because it's too difficult and they'll always have some extenuating hard luck story for a solicitor to wheedle out in court.

 

[Bikeman78]

The driver was correct though. Refusing to move the train externalises the consequences of the antagonists to everyone on the train, hence why it is an unenviable situation for the authorities concerned.

I have a few friends who are, or have been, a guard. They all agree that having a row with a fare dodger is pointless. Why cause chaos, or risk getting assaulted, over a five quid fare? Quietly calling the police is the way forward.

 

[Efini92]

If traincrew are unhappy with passenger conduct it should never be an issue to refuse further passage, and to refuse to continue with the service if necessary.

CCTV just means you can’t rough them up anymore, which used to be regular practice, according to some old hands .

That’s probably no bad thing for all concerned!

Those metal bardics hurt

 

[muz379]

A drunken abusive passenger assaulted the guard and threatened them and other passengers with needles. Not much you can do but drop anchor and call 999 for an emergency response. Context is important, and locking the passengers in the train with a lunatic for convenience isn't the answer. It appears the person was apprehended by the police and the back working ran from Eggesford as booked.

Exactly the type of incident that no "procedure" can account for , ultimately at that point you have to make a judgement call in the interests of your own and passengers safety .

 

[Bikeman78]

If "grown adult" just paid the fare this wouldn't be a risk at all for them.

Actions >> consequences. That is a fundamental lesson everyone has to learn when transitioning from childhood to adulthood.

Back in the day, eviction at Faygate was a popular option. Next train is on Monday. Bye!

 

[bramling]

There was the Scotrail one notoriously a few years ago, where the conductor dealing with an issue said "we can stay here all night pal, I'm getting paid" and a passenger got up and threw him off.

That incident was poorly dealt with. I don’t have a problem with trying to gently tap into a bit of peer pressure, but that guard took it way too far. He essentially held the other passengers to ransom by laying down the gauntlet that if someone doesn’t throw the guy off then you’ll all be here all night, which is pretty unprofessional. Especially then rubbing salt in the wound by saying “I’m getting paid for this, they’re not”.

That guard was also fortunate someone didn’t start on him, as being honest if I had been on that train and with somewhere urgent to be then I would have been pretty unhappy.

 

[Michael B]

I would agree the threat of BTP meeting them at the next stop (knowing the doors will be locked ) is quite effective but the most used one I’ve seen on SWR is “if there is a off duty police officer on board please can they assist the guard in Coach X”

I quickly learned as a SWT guard that you are 99%+ times on your own and realistically have no back-up, also if you delay the train and the delay points are allocated to your manager then that is going to be an unpleasant 'chat' at some later point! Still, you do your best, I strongly disliked fare-dodgers when the vast majority of people pay their fares.

I remember working a Pompey fast and there was a lad, early 20's, actively dodging me, hiding in the toilets, moving carriages etc. In the end I put out a staff announcement asking for a member of BTP, or an RPI, to contact the guard at the front of the train. I had checked all tickets and knew I was on my own but I hoped it might put pressure on the fare-dodger. Anyway, front of first class the fare-dodger is on the floor bawling his eyes out and I heard voices behind me asking me if I needed assistance - no less than three off-duty coppers were stood there! Turns out the fare-dodger was going to his father's funeral in Aldershot and he genuinely didn't have the money to travel. So yes, occasionally a 'request for assistance' on the PA will yield results.

As far as 'roughing up' I do remember the very early 80's when the Bardic lamp was routinely carried and occasionally used. That horrified me then and would do now. No guard should ever put themselves in a position for potential physical harm over a fare!

Michael

 

[winks]

Did you let the guy off ? Surprised no one could take him to the funeral….

 

[Travelmonkey]

If there's a danger to life or limb and you call 999 they're still very likely to respond.

Tried that on a train Leicestershire police just fobbed me off after I was assaulted, luckily I was able to escape to a rear coach but still not always effective.