Euston overcrowding

[Mikey C]

Because Euston's management are grossly incompetent? They know what the problems are and repeatedly come up with useless non-solutions to them which make things worse.

To be fair this arrangement does work at Paddington, but that's because the main entrance in passenger volume terms (the way in from the Tube) is in the middle between the two, not at one end.

And at Paddington Liz line passengers come in from one side, while passengers from the Hammersmith & City line come in from the other.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

And at Paddington Liz line passengers come in from one side, while passengers from the Hammersmith & City line come in from the other.

Paddington also has to cope with the problem of passengers walking across the concourse/etc. in order to change between the different tube stations - something Euston doesn't have to deal with.

But on the other hand, I would guess the concourse at Paddington is at least a similar size to the Euston one, if not slightly larger, but has to cope with many fewer national rail trains/passengers.

 

[Class15]

But on the other hand, I would guess the concourse at Paddington is at least a similar size to the Euston one, if not slightly larger, but has to cope with many fewer national rail trains/passengers.

Plus the fact that most of the suburban trains now run from the Liz line platforms, reducing the peak frequency at the high level station significantly.

 

[Vectron383]

UK rail minister got engineer sacked for raising safety concerns

Peter Hendy threatened to withhold public contracts while seeking disciplinary action.

www.politico.eu

“LONDON — The U.K. government’s new transport minister got an award-winning railway engineer sacked for speaking to the media about safety concerns at one of Britain’s busiest stations, POLITICO can reveal.

In his previous role running government-owned infrastructure manager Network Rail, Peter Hendy threatened to withhold public contracts from the man’s employer while urging disciplinary action — and asked officials to “deal with him.”

Hendy was angered after the engineer, Gareth Dennis, told a journalist that overcrowding at London’s Euston station was “unsafe” because it could result in a crush — despite concern also having been voiced by the official rail regulator.”

 

[irish_rail]

Paddington also has to cope with the problem of passengers walking across the concourse/etc. in order to change between the different tube stations - something Euston doesn't have to deal with.

But on the other hand, I would guess the concourse at Paddington is at least a similar size to the Euston one, if not slightly larger, but has to cope with many fewer national rail trains/passengers.

From my experience of using both stations in past year, Paddington is more of a problem now. The passenger flow off the Elizabeth line is completely at odds with the flow to and from the mainline platforms and causes real congestion. Not to mention the whole station is now a wind tunnel ever since the area at the Praed St entrance was opened out and a skyscraper built. Its a shame as Padddington used to be pretty decent. Euston I suppose never has been.....

 

[stuu]

But on the other hand, I would guess the concourse at Paddington is at least a similar size to the Euston one, if not slightly larger, but has to cope with many fewer national rail trains/passengers.

It doesn't. Very similar passenger numbers pre Covid/ EL. Now Paddington has nearly double the numbers at Euston

 

[Bletchleyite]

It doesn't. Very similar passenger numbers pre Covid/ EL. Now Paddington has nearly double the numbers at Euston

The EL is basically a separate station, though, and isn't similar to Euston's local services because it's much, much more frequent. There won't be many of those passengers hanging round the concourse, whereas there will be plenty of LNR passengers hanging around for what is mostly a half-hourly* pattern.

A better comparison might be IC passengers between Euston and Paddington, ignoring the local services.

* Aside from MKC and Watford Jn most stations either have 2tph slow (smaller stations) or 2 fast, 2 slow with most people taking the fast, so de-facto it's half hourly.

 

[stuu]

The EL is basically a separate station, though, and isn't similar to Euston's local services because it's much, much more frequent. There won't be many of those passengers hanging round the concourse, whereas there will be plenty of LNR passengers hanging around for what is mostly a half-hourly* pattern.

A better comparison might be IC passengers between Euston and Paddington, ignoring the local services.

* Aside from MKC most stations either have 2tph slow (smaller stations) or 2 fast, 2 slow with most people taking the fast, so de-facto it's half hourly.

Which is why I mentioned that they had similar numbers pre EL

 

[Wolfie]

UK rail minister got engineer sacked for raising safety concerns

Peter Hendy threatened to withhold public contracts while seeking disciplinary action.

www.politico.eu

Talk about shoot the messenger rather than deal with the issues.....

This is frankly a shocking abuse of power. The employee in question should pursue unfair dismissal and demand Hendy act as a witness.

Oh and he is palpably unfit to act as a government minister. Time for questions to the PM and Secretary of State for Transport.....

 

[Horizon22]

From my experience of using both stations in past year, Paddington is more of a problem now. The passenger flow off the Elizabeth line is completely at odds with the flow to and from the mainline platforms and causes real congestion. Not to mention the whole station is now a wind tunnel ever since the area at the Praed St entrance was opened out and a skyscraper built. Its a shame as Padddington used to be pretty decent. Euston I suppose never has been.....

It's not as bad as the year after opening when GWML services were still terminating at Paddington and the central section was open and running independently. Absolute scrum!

But its certainly much more organised now and people head off right to Elizabeth line if they want them pretty sharpish and they've definitely improved wayfinding. Plus people can congreate in the Lawn if they've got more of a wait.

Euston does not have the natural "break up" of spaces and coupled with its information deficiencies & lack of an active crowd control plan causes ongoing issues.

 

[Harpo]

My perception of the main Euston/Paddington differences is in Paddington having a common gateline and it's location on the lawn, close to those waiting. Any desire to hurry at Paddington happens over a very short distance and once at the gateline it works as a useful slowing device. Once through the gateline, any platform dashes occur in a far less crowded area.

Euston on the other hand is the equivalent of Paddington herding everyone behind a departure screen halfway up the ramp to Praed Street and never advertising a train until the previous one leaves (to simulate waiting for the arrival of the barrier revenue teams at Euston.)

 

[Kite159]

Euston is just awful full stop, especially with the shouty people shouting at passengers if they dare slow down when on the stampede to the platforms when the platform for a LNR gets announced 3 minutes prior to departure due to the inbound running late

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Plus people can congreate in the Lawn if they've got more of a wait.

It's also the case that since the 1970s, the station end of the platforms is now a coach or so closer to Reading and the Underground stairs towards the Praed Street station have been moved back. That said the Lawn is now crowded with retail and refreshment outlets.

 

[Shrop]

UK rail minister got engineer sacked for raising safety concerns

Peter Hendy threatened to withhold public contracts while seeking disciplinary action.

www.politico.eu

Why do people just accept this? Or is this not the whole story?

 

[Fragezeichnen]

The story was published a few hours ago so it's probably a bit soon to say to what the fallout will be.

 

[JamesT]

The story was published a few hours ago so it's probably a bit soon to say to what the fallout will be.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...er-sacked-for-raising-safety-concerns.273079/ Is a thread specifically around this story.

 

[Jonny]

It's getting ridiculous. They are even suppressing platform numbers for the Overground (to be Lioness) services, even though they can only realistically run from two adjacent platforms (9 and 10, due to having third rail) in practice and it is quite possible simply to head straight for those platforms.

Edit: as an afterthought, it could get worse if the Bakerloo line "falls over" for more than a day as the Overground (Watford DC/to be Lioness) would have to take over. For the state that the Bakerloo line is in generally, that is a real possibility at the moment.

 

[signed]

They are even suppressing platform numbers for the Overground (to be Lioness) services, even though they can only realistically run from two adjacent platforms (9 and 10, due to having third rail)

It would be interesting to know what is the end goal? Like it makes absolutely no sense in that case at all

 

[RyanOPlasty]

Did we ever actually find out exactly what was done to have the improvement notice lifted?
There was some speculation in this thread but nothing conclusive IIRC

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's getting ridiculous. They are even suppressing platform numbers for the Overground (to be Lioness) services, even though they can only realistically run from two adjacent platforms (9 and 10, due to having third rail) in practice and it is quite possible simply to head straight for those platforms.

Edit: as an afterthought, it could get worse if the Bakerloo line "falls over" for more than a day as the Overground (Watford DC/to be Lioness) would have to take over. For the state that the Bakerloo line is in generally, that is a real possibility at the moment.

Occasionally these services can actually reach other platforms due to the units being dual voltage - but it is incredibly rare and suppressing the platforms of them is beyond stupid.

 

[John R]

Did we ever actually find out exactly what was done to have the improvement notice lifted?
There was some speculation in this thread but nothing conclusive IIRC

That is a very good question. Whatever it was, it doesn’t appear to have made much difference, judging by comments made. Does the ORR publish any follow up to improvement notices?

 

[Horizon22]

Occasionally these services can actually reach other platforms due to the units being dual voltage - but it is incredibly rare and suppressing the platforms of them is beyond stupid.

Surpressing metro services is indeed ridiculous. I wonder what Overground thinks of that.

 

[jackdoyle]

Did we ever actually find out exactly what was done to have the improvement notice lifted?
There was some speculation in this thread but nothing conclusive IIRC

There is a good summary in this letter from Network Rail to the Transport Select Committee https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/44895/documents/222815/default/

Since September 2023, we made the following changes:
• Improved coordination of passenger boarding, based from the control room, to
minimise crowding and contraflows – for example, making sure a ramp from a
platform is clear before announcing the next service from the same platform.
• More cross-industry cooperation during disruption, including co-locating with train
operators and other partners, to better manage operational response and to keep
people safe and informed.
• Introducing Tensator post-and-rope barriers on ramps leading to platforms to
manage the flow of people to these busy areas.
• More effective staff presence at platforms to stop passengers going to the wrong
platform and impeding flow when they’re redirected.
• Installation of safety signage asking people not to run on the concourse and
introduce further risk – this was a key ask of the ORR, which we delivered.

h/t #209 in the Hendy/Dennis thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...r-raising-safety-concerns.273079/post-6917866

 

[100andthirty]

Because Euston's management are grossly incompetent? They know what the problems are and repeatedly come up with useless non-solutions to them which make things worse.

To be fair this arrangement does work at Paddington, but that's because the main entrance in passenger volume terms (the way in from the Tube) is in the middle between the two, not at one end.

Of course there used to be 3 entrances, pedestrians from each end and in the middle from the Underground. It's the idiotic changes to Underground access that's made things much worse. I suspect it is one of, if not the main root cause of current issues and frustrations.

I understand the desire to separate the two stations is one or the other is closed, but they could easily have fitted folding partitions to retain direct access for the overwhelming majority of the time both are open together.

 

[Wolfie]

Of course there used to be 3 entrances, pedestrians from each end and in the middle from the Underground. It's the idiotic changes to Underground access that's made things much worse. I suspect it is one of, if not the main root cause of current issues and frustrations.

I understand the desire to separate the two stations is one or the other is closed, but they could easily have fitted folding partitions to retain direct access for the overwhelming majority of the time both are open together.

The old Underground access at Euston was grossly inadequate and, to this regular user at least, felt dangerous itself. Euston underground station, or at least the ticket office area, is no better than the mainline station and desperately needs major work.

 

[JamesT]

Did we ever actually find out exactly what was done to have the improvement notice lifted?
There was some speculation in this thread but nothing conclusive IIRC

https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/44556/documents/221354/default/

Is a letter from the ORR regarding the improvement notice being lifted.

 

[100andthirty]

In my experience. part of the problem is the appalling lack of information when there are delays. Often all that is announced is generalised delay messages and 'see it say it sorted' type messages. No information about trains until they're ready to depart. The information board just says 'wait' or delayed'. By comparison recently, at the infinitely more complex Waterloo, There were delays due to the aftermath of a signal failure affecting all trains going towards Basingstoke. In addition to all the announcements about the trains that were running normally, the announcer kept delayed passengers informed about the whereabouts of incoming trains for their services and how long the delay might be. I was immediately struck by the stark difference between Waterloo and Euston. The quality of the information was enough for me to replan my day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The old Underground access at Euston was grossly inadequate and, to this regular user at least, felt dangerous itself. Euston underground station, or at least the ticket office area, is no better than the mainline station and desperately needs major work.

It is. Though if they stopped hiding the platforms more might use the tunnel to 8-11 which is much wider than the main access. Though that has the downside that it causes conflicting movement in the Tube ticket hall - I wonder if having two sets of entrance and exit gates may work better to avoid that.

 

[Wolfie]

It is. Though if they stopped hiding the platforms more might use the tunnel to 8-11 which is much wider than the main access. Though that has the downside that it causes conflicting movement in the Tube ticket hall - I wonder if having two sets of entrance and exit gates may work better to avoid that.

Indeed. There used to be a departures board on the Underground area which was incredibly useful in deciding whether to use the tunnel to Platforms 8-11 or go to the main concourse. Removed presumably as part of the same stupid suppression.

 

[Kite159]

You can't have passengers waiting for their trains on the platforms, they won't spend money in one of the wonderful overpriced station shops if you allowed them to do that

(a joke, suppressing platform information is just idiotic when the train is already on the platform and inbound passengers are given a chance to exit the platform area)