UK rail minister got engineer sacked for raising safety concerns

[Bletchleyite]

Except of course that Gareth has been publically commenting on the industry for ages. Systra themselves not only knew about that but encouraged and celebrated it on their website. So they can't then surely have it both ways when something like this happens?

I just find it remarkable that they'd rather get him sacked than actually fix Euston, the solutions to which are obvious and have been discussed here many times.

 

[Horizon22]

Except of course that Gareth has been publically commenting on the industry for ages. Systra themselves not only knew about that but encouraged and celebrated it on their website. So they can't then surely have it both ways when something like this happens?

This is also true - they cannot have it both ways when it suits!

 

[43066]

We have free speech in this country. None of his employer’s business what he says in a personal capacity, nor Network Rail’s business for that matter. 99.9% of those who saw what he said wouldn’t have known about his then position at SYSTRA. And when one considers Dennis’s role with stuff such as the Campaign for level boarding, something which the railway seems very resistant to, it’s no wonder that any excuse was found to get rid of him.

Unfortunately free speech (which we don’t entirely have anyway) doesn’t mean speech without consequences. If you take to the media (or to social media) to make allegations against your employer, or against their clients, you will likely find yourself unemployed in short order.

The correct approach (as protected by whistleblowing legislation AIUI) is to approach the relevant safety bodies.

I don't accept the argument that anyone is a representative of their employer just by the fact of having been employed. That's clearly nonsense when there's no public-facing link between the employee and employer as there wasn't in this case.

The people you're referring to were dismissed because they were convicted. Dennis hasn't even been accused of a crime.

People absolutely have been sacked for comments made on social media. There is no requirement to have committed a crime, merely to be found to have breached a term of the employment contract, whether express or implied. Bringing your employer into disrepute being a key one.

I can think of several examples of people who have lost their jobs over comments made on social media, even where they were clearly writing in a personal capacity.

 

[HSTEd]

I just find it remarkable that they'd rather get him sacked than actually fix Euston, the solutions to which are obvious and have been discussed here many times.

Disposing of this "troublemaker" cost them nothing, and Hendy may even have enjoyed writing the email.

It is far cheaper than trying to fix Euston.

 

[matt_world2004]

Unfortunately free speech (which we don’t entirely have anyway) doesn’t mean speech without consequences. If you take to the media (or to social media) to make allegations against your employer, or against their clients, you will likely find yourself unemployed in short order.

The correct approach (as protected by whistleblowing legislation AIUI) is to approach the relevant safety bodies.



People absolutely have been sacked for comments made on social media. There is absolutely no requirement to have committed a crime, merely to be found to have breached a term of the employment contract, whether express or implied. Bringing your employer into disrepute being a key one.

I can think of several examples of people who have lost their jobs over comments made on social media, even where they were clearly writing in a personal capacity.

I think there is a difference between someone slagging of the customers and company on social media and highlighting safety concerns

 

[HSTEd]

The correct approach (as protected by whistleblowing legislation AIUI) is to approach the relevant safety bodies.

I'm afraid that recent history is littered with coverups where whistleblowers made the mistake of not going to the press. Indeed, the Post Office scandal is probably illuminating in that regard.

These arrangements have huge problems with regulatory capture at the best of times.
ANd of course, if noone tells anyone, noone will know if the powers that be decide to bury it.

 

[Starmill]

Well that's very much the default position of most employers - especially when posting in social / traditional media settings. So you may not "accept the argument" but I think HR will!

It isn't though is it? Most employers just aren't that bothered about what their staff are saying if it's plain their staff don't speak for the brand.

You're an employee, not an indentured servant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

To be fair I didn't know he was an employee of Systra from his previous social media

I can't imagine you'd find anyone other than him or other Systra staff who did. That's rather the point...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

Private conversation is not sufficient for meaningful policy discussion.
Without discussion across society, including in the press, social media and the like, it cannot occur.

To do otherwise results in the railway industry, which expends £20bn a year in public money, being de-facto controlled by whoever the chair of Network RAil is with no real oversight because noone will ever publically disagree with him.

What this man says or does not say in social media or elsewhere has no impact on the quality of his work.
If Network Rail believes that he is wrong then they (or Hendy) should have initiated an action for libel/slander (not sure which applies to social media).

The reason they do not is because they know they will not win.

Indeed. And the law provides for this specifically too by allowing protected disclosures.

 

[trebor79]

1 - Why offer him a payout in the first place if he is as in the wrong as you think?

To avoid a reputational stink like this.

2 - Because the payout came with an NDA so he wouldn't have been able to talk about it.

See above.

By issuing an ultimatum to one company, Hendy is sending a chilling effect through the industry: "your employees must never criticise any aspect of railway operation with which we're involved". (Which is pretty much everything.) Trying to stop an entire industry speaking out on safety matters is a really bad look.

No he isn't. He's saying don't do it inappropriately. Big difference.

 

[HSTEd]

No he isn't. He's saying don't do it inappropriately. Big difference.

The definition of "inappropriately" in this case appears to be "in any way that might cause people to actually see it".

 

[Horizon22]

It isn't though is it? Most employers just aren't that bothered about what their staff are saying if it's plain their staff don't speak for the brand.

You're an employee, not an indentured servant

It can be a PR nightmare for the employer these days as someone posts something offensive/dubious online and people are easily quick to find their employer and asking whether this alings with their views and so on and so forth. There are plenty of examples you can easily find of people losing their jobs this way and it is naive to suggest otherwise.

Honestly, people should check to see what is in their contracts and social media policies; I'm sure many will find it illuminating!

I think Hendy/NR have gone about this in a rather perverse way, it wasn't handed by Systra in the best manner and there was no particular need for it to blow up in this way, but I can see both sides of the argument.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is far cheaper than trying to fix Euston.

To be fair, it would probably cost around £5 to significantly improve Euston, which is probably roughly the cost of the time it would take for someone to go and turn off the platform suppression for WMT and London Overground (yes, they do really suppress those now) trains. I get the issues with Avanti, but with WMT/LO no preparatory work is carried out at Euston at all, at most a cleaner wanders through, usually after boarding has started, nor is there any splitting/joining there any more.

That would probably roughly halve the number of people crammed onto the concourse and thus represent a major improvement.

Of course plenty more could be done for a cost, e.g. putting the displays back the way they were.

 

[Starmill]

I think there is a difference between someone slagging of the customers and company on social media and highlighting safety concerns

Indeed. And it's obviously not possible to bring your employer into disrepute if nobody else even knows you're an employee.

 

[43066]

I think there is a difference between someone slagging of the customers and company on social media and highlighting safety concerns

Not for these purposes there isn’t. The Whistleblowing regime is fairly specific in covering referrals to relevant bodies. It doesn’t provide protection to those bleating to the media or pontificating on a YouTube channel.

The merit or otherwise of the allegations doesn’t really have any bearing on the matter.

I'm afraid that recent history is littered with coverups where whistleblowers made the mistake of not going to the press. Indeed, the Post Office scandal is probably illuminating in that regard.

These arrangements have huge problems with regulatory capture at the best of times.
ANd of course, if noone tells the press, noone will know if the powers that be decide to bury it.

That may be true (although I’d question how common it really is). , but it doesn’t change the underlying legal position that you can be sacked in the situation being discussed if you don’t fall within the protection of the whistleblower regime. Obviously it’s down to the individual to decide whether they wish to go to the media anyway, and it may even be that this guy ends up being reinstated as a PR stunt if there’s sufficient outcry.

The suggestions that Euston is “dangerous” or “unsafe” are also difficult to quantify and amount to a value judgement. It isn’t like a drug with proven bad side effects someone is covering up, for example.

It isn't though is it? Most employers just aren't that bothered about what their staff are saying if it's plain their staff don't speak for the brand.

You're an employee, not an indentured servant.

If someone goes onto Facebook and makes (say) a sexist or racist comment they will face the sack if their name can be linked to their employer. I’ve seen it happen!

 

[Starmill]

It can be a PR nightmare for the employer these days as someone posts something offensive/dubious online and people are easily quick to find their employer and asking whether this alings with their views and so on and so forth. There are plenty of examples you can easily find of people losing their jobs this way and it is naive to suggest otherwise.

Honestly, people should check to see what is in their contracts and social media policies; I'm sure many will find it illuminating!

Nobody's disagreeing with any of that. But the boilerplate terms about brand damage are irrelevant when the brand isn't involved, as here.

 

[Horizon22]

Disposing of this "troublemaker" cost them nothing, and Hendy may even have enjoyed writing the email.

It is far cheaper than trying to fix Euston.

Ultimately NR's PR will take a quick hit, Hendy will be advised to lie low but otherwise very few people will care and Network Rail isn't suddenly going to disappear (except into GBR) as they are the public infrastruture manager for the railways. His recent move into government makes it slightly more of a bigger headache. Dennis is I believe a member of the Green Party too so whilst I don't think that's the main reason for this occuring - and the Green policy on public transport is totally muddled - it might have given further impotetus to raise the profile of this.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Ultimately NR's PR will take a quick hit, Hendy will be advised to lie low but otherwise very few people will care and Network Rail isn't suddenly going to disappear (except into GBR) as they are the public infrastructure manager for the railways. His recent move into government makes it slightly more of a bigger headache. Dennis is I believe a member of the Green Party too so whilst I don't think that's the main reason for this occurring - and the Green policy on public transport is totally muddled - it might have given further impetus to raise the profile of this.

Wow - just coming across a this news. I contribute to Gareth's Rail Natter. He was a Labour Party member but voted Green this last time. He is also a member of CEBR - Campaign to Electrify Britain's Railway. His treatment seems a little harsh to me and I will be following this avidly here in the USA.

 

[Wolfie]

I just find it remarkable that they'd rather get him sacked than actually fix Euston, the solutions to which are obvious and have been discussed here many times.

If (l truly hope that it is not when) a serious incident happens at Euston Hendy will quite rightly be crucified. His credibility is now based on that station being safe....

 

[185]

Can you back this up as its very concerning if this behaviour happens it would suggest that the whole safety reporting system is also rotten to the core then. This was really important a decade ago for subbies to be able to raise concerns about their individual employers which they couldn't do openly as majority were on zero hour contracts and would get blacked from that company.

CIRAS used to be very detached from the industry and you would get through to a nice lady based at Glasgow Caledonian University. Time passed and at some point it was noted they moved their registered address to the same one as the RSSB.

After a couple of incidents where it was suspected CIRAS confidentiality had been compromised, their boss was openly challenged in 2019 and became quite defensive, but would not deny that Ciras shares an office with the RSSB, with every response being of the 'yes, but' nature.

After the scandal of workplace "confidential assistance helpline" health assured who openly sold phone calls data to employers (BBC 24 Jul 2024) including TOCs, I do wonder what's gonna come out next - we are running out of icebergs to crash the boat into.

 

[Wolfie]

Disposing of this "troublemaker" cost them nothing, and Hendy may even have enjoyed writing the email.

It is far cheaper than trying to fix Euston.

As long as nothing goes wrong at Euston....

 

[jojoseph72]

I think there is a difference between someone slagging of the customers and company on social media and highlighting safety concerns

I think there is no doubt that people the current situation with Euston as an issue that has to be resolved. However, for me I feel it is the wording/what was said that caused the issue, specifically the word 'unsafe'.

The ORR press release and improvement notice in no way do they use the word 'unsafe', but uses different words to imply something similar 'While there were reports of minor injuries, the incidents were assessed to have had the potential for more serious consequences'.

If you are to speak to the press whether on a personal basis or on behalf of your employer you have to be careful in how you word things. If he wanted to highlight the issues facing Euston, he could have simply parroted the ORR, and Ian Prosser, HM Chief Inspector of Railways said.

But, with the comment Gareth has said, it was far-fetched to believe he would have gotten away without being disciplined.
However, I do think what's happened is a step too far.

 

[Starmill]

If (l truly hope that it is not when) a serious in incident happens at Euston Hendy will quite rightly be crucified. His credibility is now based on that station being safe....

Indeed. What's actually happened to Dennis is a little bit of a secondary point here (not to denigrate him personally) - the public interest is first and foremost about Hendy's capability and credibility.

 

[Wolfie]

Ultimately NR's PR will take a quick hit, Hendy will be advised to lie low but otherwise very few people will care and Network Rail isn't suddenly going to disappear (except into GBR) as they are the public infrastruture manager for the railways. His recent move into government makes it slightly more of a bigger headache. Dennis is I believe a member of the Green Party too so whilst I don't think that's the main reason for this occuring - and the Green policy on public transport is totally muddled - it might have given further impotetus to raise the profile of this.

The Opposition will undoubtedly target this.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If (l truly hope that it is not when) a serious in incident happens at Euston Hendy will quite rightly be crucified. His credibility is now based on that station being safe....

I truly hope not too. The railways now need a (long -hopefully) period of stability with no accidents etc.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It's worth saying Gareth isn't claiming to be a whistleblower here. Infact very much the opposite (he's tweeted today specifically saying this isn't about whistleblowing). If he comes to regret that posture will be up to him, but it does just sound like his comments were basically along the lines of everyone knows its a mess and it needs sorting, rather than anything more substantial!

However the potential knock on effects to "actual" whistleblowers for maybe more serious issues are absolutely real. Certainly if I was in the industry I'd be hesitant to say anything negative at all right now!

 

[Horizon22]

Nobody's disagreeing with any of that. But the boilerplate terms about brand damage are irrelevant when the brand isn't involved, as here.

Yeah its more complicated I guess as Network Rail is Systra's client and Network Rail feel their brand is being damaged by one of their employees so it leads that way, although much more grey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2024 ==

The Opposition will undoubtedly target this.

They might, doubt it will go anywhere as people will just reflect on the Tory railway record and they just got thumpingly defeated.

 

[Starmill]

They might, doubt it will go anywhere as people will just reflect on the Tory railway record and they just got thumpingly defeated.

I'd say it's less a railway industry issue, and more a standards in public life issue. That's an attack line Labour deployed very successfully against Johnson and Sunak.

 

[matt_world2004]

There seems something quite wrong about the culture of network rail . Where instead of facilitating discussion about safety issues in the rail industry , they would rather attempt to shut down those discussions. That is not healthy for the industry itself.and the price it will pay for this in the long term will be in blood.

Anyone who is commenting on safety issues within the industry from a position of qualification is going to be connected to the industry in some way.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

There seems something quite wrong about the culture of network rail . Where instead of facilitating discussion about safety issues in the rail industry , they would rather attempt to shut down those discussions. That is not healthy for the industry itself. and the price it will pay for this in the long term will be in blood.

Oh please no. I hope and pray that something will be done and no blood is spilt. It is the last thing the railways need right now.

 

[matt_world2004]

Oh please no. I hope and pray that something will be done and no blood is spilt. It is the last thing the railways need right now.

It may not happen in Euston but if people feel like they cannot speak freely about safety issues, that is going to eventually to lead to safety practices stagnating and not improving..

Best practice often comes from debate , reflection and criticism

 

[DanNCL]

Unfortunately free speech (which we don’t entirely have anyway) doesn’t mean speech without consequences. If you take to the media (or to social media) to make allegations against your employer, or against their clients, you will likely find yourself unemployed in short order.

The correct approach (as protected by whistleblowing legislation AIUI) is to approach the relevant safety bodies.

Yes and no. His employer didn’t have any problem with what he said until Hendy complained. One person, regardless of their position, should never be able to get someone at a different company sacked just because they didn’t like something that person said.

There’s nothing necessarily to say that Dennis hadn’t already approached the relevant safety bodies and got nowhere. When that happens, what else are you supposed to do? The Post Office scandal, whilst not directly comparable, is a good example of why whistleblowers should be able to go public if the relevant bodies fail to act accordingly.