UK rail minister got engineer sacked for raising safety concerns

[ainsworth74]

I wonder if it might be worth refreshing ourselves on what Hendy's letter actually said about Systra's future work prospects? I think the key passage is this:

And, of course, finding a potential supplier criticising a possible client reflects adversely on your likelihood of doing business with us or our supply chain.

Does he explicitly say "If you don't sack Dennis we won't do business with you and we will make sure no-one who works with us will do business with you"? No, of course not. But I think if you read between the lines it's perfectly clear what Hendy is saying here and I think you'd need to be incredibly trusting to think that he isn't saying "Sack him or give up on any contracts with us or anyone who works with us" between the lines.

 

[Starmill]

I'd say this discussion is far from closed, given Hendy's half-hearted excuse.

One of the things that interests me about the future of this is that Network Rail's press office has put out quite the number of public statements saying that any decision on employment is a matter for an employer which is not them in this case, which strongly contradicts Hendy's letter in its word choice. However, Hendy hasn't apologised for demanding a resignation, only for poor tone.

Ultimately Hendy is a liability for the government now and will be a justified route to attacks from the opposition.

Does he explicitly say "If you don't sack Dennis we won't do business with you and we will make sure no-one who works with us will do business with you"? No, of course not. But I think if you read between the lines it's perfectly clear what Hendy is saying here and I think you'd need to be incredibly trusting to think that he isn't saying "Sack him or give up on any contracts with us or anyone who works with us" between the lines.

Worth adding the context that in his internal email he does explicitly say so as he asks his colleagues for a “request for disciplinary action [against Dennis] as this is a serious and completely unproven allegation”. Now of course that internal email wasn't addressed to Salt. But in terms of trusting as you put it, Hendy has been cross-examined pretty cleanly here I'd say. If any of these allegations against Hendy weren't true I'd expect him to have denied them too.

 

[Harpo]

A whistleblowing claim does not require 2 years' service - it is like a victimisation claim, because it relates to being subjected to a detriment because of something the worker did that affords protection, in this case a “protected disclosure.”

Doesn’t ‘whistleblowing’ have to relate to something within one’s own employment?

 

[Starmill]

Doesn’t ‘whistleblowing’ have to relate to something within one’s own employment?

No, but it would have to be a "protected disclosure". In these circumstances that's not relevant because the information was public and not privileged, and the person who made the statements doesn't claim it's protected.

 

[185]

My opinion, being an engineer for French owned Systra, a frequent subcontractor to NR, would be pretty easy to meet the minimum test of this at court.

Any arguments in defense of a 'no relation' claim fall apart by the very letter Hendy sent - he openly threatens no more work for Systra - confirming the relationship, you couldn't make it up.

 

[mpthomson]

A whistleblowing claim does not require 2 years' service - it is like a victimisation claim, because it relates to being subjected to a detriment because of something the worker did that affords protection, in this case a “protected disclosure.”


I'd say this discussion is far from closed, given Hendy's half-hearted excuse. I like Hendy, he occasionally does talk some sense, but on this he's absolutely wrong and should use his position (again) this time to quickly put matters right for Mr Dennis.

He hasn't made anything remotely close to a 'protected disclosure', and that's his problem. The standard conditions still apply.

My opinion, being an engineer for French owned Systra, a frequent subcontractor to NR, would be pretty easy to meet the minimum test of this at court.

Any arguments in defense of a 'no relation' claim fall apart by the very letter Hendy sent - he openly threatens no more work for Systra - confirming the relationship, you couldn't make it up.

Having been involved in a number of ET's he's miles off getting it over the line.

 

[KNN]

We're just repeating the last 16 pages now aren't we?

17

 

[Cowley]

17

Yep. This probably a good place to wrap things up.

Thanks everyone

 

[SquireBev]

Not to reopen the whole Gareth Dennis/Lord Hendy thing, but the irony is off the charts here:

Euston Station is no longer in fit condition, says rail minister

Lord Hendy said the terminus had deteriorated to the point where its marble columns are held together by bands.

www.bbc.co.uk

Lord Hendy of Richmond Hill, who is a former chairman of Network Rail, told the House of Lords the terminus is "no longer in fit condition".

He said: "The station itself was very modern in 1968. It is no longer very modern."

Network Rail previously said it had brought in a five-point plan, including creating more space at the station and providing better passenger information.

 

[takno]

Not to reopen the whole Gareth Dennis/Lord Hendy thing, but the irony is off the charts here:

Euston Station is no longer in fit condition, says rail minister

Lord Hendy said the terminus had deteriorated to the point where its marble columns are held together by bands.

www.bbc.co.uk

Not to bring that up again, but the complaint about Dennis was, extremely specifically, that as a railway professional he accused it of being unsafe. If he'd said that the place was an unpleasant tip which was horrible to be and structurally probably didn't have 20 years left in it then what he said would have been entirely defensible and likely wouldn't have been reacted to. Unsafe is a really important word which brings accusations of serious legal negligence and liability, and people accused of it will naturally react quite strongly.

If you believe that the irony is off the charts then it's probably because you completely misunderstood the point which Hendy was originally making.

 

[The exile]

It doesn't seem that approach has done people like Elon Musk any harm...

Yet!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Not to bring that up again, but the complaint about Dennis was, extremely specifically, that as a railway professional he accused it of being unsafe. If he'd said that the place was an unpleasant tip which was horrible to be and structurally probably didn't have 20 years left in it then what he said would have been entirely defensible and likely wouldn't have been reacted to. Unsafe is a really important word which brings accusations of serious legal negligence and liability, and people accused of it will naturally react quite strongly.

If you believe that the irony is off the charts then it's probably because you completely misunderstood the point which Hendy was originally making.

Does this not sound unsafe to you? Because it does to me!

columns are held together by bands because parts "would fall off without them"

Hendy and NR are using every euphemism they can to avoid using the word unsafe regardless of the reality because as you say that has huge implications.

 

[Iskra]

You have to question who is advising Hendy here, or is he just genuinely a moron?

After everything that has happened, why would you come out and agree with Dennis, publicly? Will he now be resigning if it’s not acceptable to publicly criticise Euston? And also why bring the matter back to the fore of public attention, just as the dust was settling?!

 

[185]

On seeing 14 people killed last week when a botched refurbishment of a major Serbian station fell apart, our Euston having structures being banded together as a long term solution to stop them dropping off hardly fills me with confidence.

Should just be done with it and flatten it for 'the greater good'

take a look at his horse!

 

[Ginaro]

Not to bring that up again, but the complaint about Dennis was, extremely specifically, that as a railway professional he accused it of being unsafe.

“All of a sudden, that station that once felt large and airy feels like a small shed,” Dennis adds. And when multiple trains are delayed or cancelled, “you’re talking about thousands of people squished into that space. It’s not just uncomfortable, it’s not just unpleasant, it’s unsafe.”

There comes a point where X number of people in a certain space is unsafe, that's just common sense.

 

[Wolfie]

You have to question who is advising Hendy here, or is he just genuinely a moron?

After everything that has happened, why would you come out and agree with Dennis, publicly? Will he now be resigning if it’s not acceptable to publicly criticise Euston? And also why bring the matter back to the fore of public attention, just as the dust was settling?!

Probably because his boss, the Secretary of State for Transport, had already basically said similar and they are now setting the foundations for announcing major work at Euston to go with the HS2 tunnelling.

I personally think, with nearly 40 years Whitehall experience, that the SofS is somewhat hanging Hendy out to dry. Don't be surprised if he goes come the first HMG reshuffle.

Does this not sound unsafe to you? Because it does to me!


Hendy and NR are using every euphemism they can to avoid using the word unsafe regardless of the reality because as you say that has huge implications.

Indeed

 

[Horizon22]

Does this not sound unsafe to you? Because it does to me!

It might be considered unsafe if those bands were not in position yes. However Network Rail have implemented a mitigation - albeit far from ideal - to ensure the (minimum) standard of safety is met.

 

[Goldfish62]

Seems the Gareth Dennis fan club is conflating his comments about crowding with Hendy's comments about structural issues.

 

[43066]

Not to reopen the whole Gareth Dennis/Lord Hendy thing, but the irony is off the charts here:

Euston Station is no longer in fit condition, says rail minister

Lord Hendy said the terminus had deteriorated to the point where its marble columns are held together by bands.

www.bbc.co.uk

But this has nothing whatsoever to do with the crowding issues that the comments discussed in the OP were based on, so I don’t see the irony.

Seems the Gareth Dennis fan club is conflating his comments about crowding with Hendy's comments about structural issues.

Agreed.

 

[David Bullock]

But this has nothing whatsoever to do with the crowding issues that the comments discussed in the OP were based on, so I don’t see the irony.



Agreed.

I mean it wasn’t the specific issue of overcrowding that Hendy took issue with, it was that Gareth Dennis, someone from within the industry, said Euston was unsafe in the Independent.

Hendy wanted Gareth out of a job because he has a profile and media contacts, and wasn’t being an uncritical cheerleader for the railways.

The specific issue of overcrowding isn’t hugely relevant to this, although the article (and Hendy) make reference to how retail is contributing to the lack of space (and therefore overcrowding) at Euston.

The irony here is that regardless of the issue it’s terrible optics that Hendy has had to do this when he clearly hates admitting publicly what the railway is getting wrong.

 

[35B]

I mean it wasn’t the specific issue of overcrowding that Hendy took issue with, it was that Gareth Dennis, someone from within the industry, said Euston was unsafe in the Independent.

Hendy wanted Gareth out of a job because he has a profile and media contacts, and wasn’t being an uncritical cheerleader for the railways.

The specific issue of overcrowding isn’t hugely relevant to this, although the article (and Hendy) make reference to how retail is contributing to the lack of space (and therefore overcrowding) at Euston.

The irony here is that regardless of the issue it’s terrible optics that Hendy has had to do this when he clearly hates admitting publicly what the railway is getting wrong.

None of which makes Dennis right, and his arrogant crowing in response is decidedly unattractive.

 

[Wolfie]

This thread is again becoming more about people's personal views of Hendy or Dennis rather than the substantive issues.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This thread is again becoming more about people's personal views of Hendy or Dennis rather than the substantive issues.

I don't know. I am no fan of Dennis at all (indeed I've muted him on X as he was annoying me so much), but I also believe that crowd stampedes pose a serious safety risk in any setting (not just a railway) and thus would agree with a statement that the present operational situation at Euston is dangerous.

 

[Goldfish62]

This thread is again becoming more about people's personal views of Hendy or Dennis rather than the substantive issues.

Yes, it's going round and round in circles, constantly recycling the same opinions and issues as at the start of this thread.

It feels like some think if they continue talking about the issue Hendy will resign. He's not going anywhere. That just has to be accepted.

Time to move on.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I have used Euston since 1969 and between 1977-2020, it was my travel to work terminus. I have never felt unsafe but at times I have felt uncomfortable.

Some of the “initiatives” deployed to cope with increasing numbers have worked, some have not, but when you ignore the prevailing passenger flows when you design initiatives, ignore the basic layout of the station and don’t tie up the platforming (timetable, turn round resources, train crew) with the passenger flows, you are going to be in a mess.

But anyone who is employed in the industry who publicly accuses NR or any other railway safety duty holder of operating unsafely had better be prepared for a rough ride. That is lighting the blue touch-paper and you are going to get a strong reaction, especially with NR.

Hendy has tended to work for large corporate bodies and his views and attitudes reflect that experience. Personally, I think he is in post as a minister to deliver GBR and once that has been done, at least at Government level, he will leave office and spend more time with his Routemasters.

 

[akm]

Of course he'll be a life peer for, well, life...

 

[dosxuk]

But anyone who is employed in the industry who publicly accuses NR or any other railway safety duty holder of operating unsafely had better be prepared for a rough ride. That is lighting the blue touch-paper and you are going to get a strong reaction, especially with NR.

Not just NR, but pretty much any organisation which has to deal with safety matters.

If you worked for a catering company and told the press that the O2 is being operated unsafely; or you worked for an maintenance company and told the press the airstairs at Gatwick were unsafe, your employer would be getting a very similar letter. There are ways and means to report safety issues in every industry - going to the press is not one of them.

 

[KNN]

Not just NR, but pretty much any organisation which has to deal with safety matters.

If you worked for a catering company and told the press that the O2 is being operated unsafely; or you worked for an maintenance company and told the press the airstairs at Gatwick were unsafe, your employer would be getting a very similar letter. There are ways and means to report safety issues in every industry - going to the press is not one of them.

I thought I'd have a look to see when the first time a version of this point was made. It was post #6

I wonder how many different ways it can be said?

 

[Grimsby town]

I don't know. I am no fan of Dennis at all (indeed I've muted him on X as he was annoying me so much), but I also believe that crowd stampedes pose a serious safety risk in any setting (not just a railway) and thus would agree with a statement that the present operational situation at Euston is dangerous.

But Dennis isn't in a place to say what is safe and what isn't. He's a track engineer and not a crowd modeller or passenger safety expert. He's also not pointing to any specific research from qualified people. He's simply stating his opinion. While I think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion, stating an opinion in such a strong manner without evidence or relevant expertise is going to get push back.

Hendy did ask if Dennis had any specific information to back up his claim which he hasn't. I personally don't think Euston is particularly unsafe, more just uncomfortable and a poor passenger experience. There's clearly plans to stop Euston becoming overcrowded because the station is often closed during disruption.