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Will Labour scrap the £2 fare Cap? (now confirmed will rise to £3)

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Mgameing123

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Bus companies are worrief that Labour will scrap the cap. I honestly think they should and make fares more distance based again. But still keep prices cheap. Without the cap a return ticket from Windsor to Maidenhead would cost £7.90. Could Labour instead finance a 50% or higher reduction of ticket prices if they are let’s say higher than £1? Because anything under £1 would most likely be a short hop fare and we shouldn’t encourage shorts hops over walking.
 
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Blindtraveler

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Perhaps a small rise to 2 lb 50? Pence might be justified but scrapping it all together would be a very silly idea given that bus passenger numbers are better than they have been for a while and after the winter fuel payment scandal, which we probably haven't heard the last of yet. Pricing people off public transport isn't going to go down too well either
 

A S Leib

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The direction of travel seems to be towards more combined authorities (I think with Greater Lincolnshire and East Yorkshire getting ones in May), and some have equivalent fares themselves (I think Greater Manchester brought a £2 scheme in early, and London already had the Hopper fare). Of course, not all of England's in a combined authority, and CAs might not necessarily be able to afford to maintain the cap themselves.
 

YorkRailFan

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The Tories were originally going to keep the £2 cap in place until December 2023, and then raise it to £2.50 until December 2024. Ultimately, they decided to keep the cap at £2. Hopefully, a rise to £2.50 will be implemented if Treasury feels unable to fund a £2 cap, meaning that the cap isn't scrapped entirely.
Without the cap a return ticket from Windsor to Maidenhead would cost £7.90.
Some operators offer slightly cheaper return tickets on shorter distances, such as Go Cornwall Bus in my experience.
 

tomoufc

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I’ve been wondering about this too. It wouldn’t be a good look to reverse one of the most successful and socially equitable policies of the last government. Perhaps a slight rise to take into account inflation, to, say £2.10. But then, as soon as you start adding decimals, or re-introducing proper distance-based pricing, then you’re losing a lot of the appeal and therefore the potential revenue it generates.
 

Andyh82

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The direction of travel seems to be towards more combined authorities (I think with Greater Lincolnshire and East Yorkshire getting ones in May), and some have equivalent fares themselves (I think Greater Manchester brought a £2 scheme in early, and London already had the Hopper fare). Of course, not all of England's in a combined authority, and CAs might not necessarily be able to afford to maintain the cap themselves.
Despite coming in before the national scheme, the West Yorkshire Combined Authority have said they’ve now aligned their scheme to the national scheme, and it will end/change at the same time

It’s talked about in section 2 here


It basically sounds like if the national fare hadn’t come in, the local fare would have increased by now, but as it was extended they’ve ended up having to use their own local funding to keep paying for the local fare to stay the same as the national fare
 
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RT4038

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I’m sure some bus companies will have seen the benefit and keep going with it either way. I hope so at least.
The bus companies will soon go bankrupt if they contemplate doing this, so I think it unlikely.
 

Bletchleyite

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It probably does need an inflationary increase mechanism to be added to it even if it is retained, it can't be £2 forever and a big jump would be really bad publicity.

Making it £2.50 now then increasing by RPI or CPI rounded to the nearest 10p would probably be something worth considering.
 

ChrisC

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It probably does need an inflationary increase mechanism to be added to it even if it is retained, it can't be £2 forever and a big jump would be really bad publicity.

Making it £2.50 now then increasing by RPI or CPI rounded to the nearest 10p would probably be something worth considering.
That seems a sensible way out of this. After 2 years of the £2 fare removing the scheme completely would be a big step. From where I live into town about 7 miles away, before the £2 fare the day ticket at £7.90 seemed expensive. Due to fare increases during the last 2 years that day ticket is now £9.50. To go from a return fare of £4 to £9.50 could see a big drop in passenger numbers.
 

stevieinselby

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I’m sure some bus companies will have seen the benefit and keep going with it either way. I hope so at least.
The only way it can be a benefit is with a hefty bung from the government to make up the shortfall. Apart from some very local urban routes with a high churn, a £2 fares cap is never going to be commercially viable – you would never attract enough extra passengers to bring in enough money to run the service, or heck even if you could somehow attract that many passengers, you wouldn't be able to fit them on the bus!

Bus companies are worrief that Labour will scrap the cap. I honestly think they should and make fares more distance based again. But still keep prices cheap. Without the cap a return ticket from Windsor to Maidenhead would cost £7.90. Could Labour instead finance a 50% or higher reduction of ticket prices if they are let’s say higher than £1? Because anything under £1 would most likely be a short hop fare and we shouldn’t encourage shorts hops over walking.
I like the idea of a long-term plan to keep bus fares at a more affordable level, but without necessarily having the same high cost to the public (and distorting effect on the market) that the £2 fares cap has ... but the question is, how do you define it? A maximum fare per mile? You would need to have a sliding scale, long-distance routes have lower per-mile costs than urban routes, and it would not work out so well for operators that charge higher fares but provide a premium service. Or 50% of the 2022 fares (adjusted for inflation)? Seems complicated to enforce, and what about routes that are new or in other ways substantially different from 2022? How do you decide what an appropriate level of subsidy is?

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, not at all – but logistically there's a lot more thinking that needs to go on around implementation before we can really assess whether it's a goer.
 

tomoufc

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It probably does need an inflationary increase mechanism to be added to it even if it is retained, it can't be £2 forever and a big jump would be really bad publicity.

Making it £2.50 now then increasing by RPI or CPI rounded to the nearest 10p would probably be something worth considering.
Why start with such a big jump?
 

JonathanH

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Why start with such a big jump?
I suspect the thinking is that £2 has been too cheap a starting level. It was originally planned to go to £2.50 as a first step following an introductory period.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I wonder what percentage of cash payments against card payments are made on the current £2.00 capped fare? On cash payments, a £2.00 coin or 2 x £1.00 coins is easy, but what does the driver do if the fare goes up to a price that will mean the passenger needing to find extra coins to make up the fare and may need change given if only coins of a greater amount are available to the passenger.
 

Bletchleyite

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I wonder what percentage of cash payments against card payments are made on the current £2.00 capped fare? On cash payments, a £2.00 coin or 2 x £1.00 coins is easy, but what does the driver do if the fare goes up to a price that will mean the passenger needing to find extra coins to make up the fare and may need change given if only coins of a greater amount are available to the passenger.

In my observation almost all bus fares are paid by card these days, or via a mobile app. The people who are more likely to want to pay by cash, older people, get free travel anyway.

It also helps that if the fare is always the same people are more likely to have right change than back when it seemed to be some sort of trade secret.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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In my observation almost all bus fares are paid by card these days, or via a mobile app. The people who are more likely to want to pay by cash, older people, get free travel anyway.

It also helps that if the fare is always the same people are more likely to have right change than back when it seemed to be some sort of trade secret.
In our area, a lot of young mothers (usually with a child in a trolley) mostly pay by cash. I must confess it surprised me, but I have seen this happen with my own eyes.
 

Bletchleyite

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In our area, a lot of young mothers (usually with a child in a trolley) mostly pay by cash. I must confess it surprised me, but I have seen this happen with my own eyes.

I think there is to be fair a reasonable north-south split on cash. In London people just don't use it at all, other than very, very poor people who may not have a bank account, though even they have to get an Oyster for bus travel and charge it with cash at a local shop. The further from London you go, the more cash seems to be used.
 

duncombec

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Why start with such a big jump?
£2 to £2.50 would be a significantly less big jump than £2 to £4.10, which is my current non-capped fare...

It's also important to remember that in some circumstances, those who are still paying cash are those with least money and most need to budget (there is anecdotal evidence to suggest this in multiple areas of payment, not just for bus fares), so asking people to go back to finding 10ps and the like will not be helpful. Keep it to as few coins as possible. I recall being told some years ago that cash is not there to help you spend, it's to stop you from spending: unlike plastic, when you run out of the physical thing, you can't keep using it.

Ultimately, this was introduced as a "help for households" measure, not a public transport improvement measure, and I think all the other "help" measures have now been withdrawn. Even as a non-driving (never learned), full-adult-fare paying customer, I accept it can't continue forever.

What is needed now is a clear plan that the government stick to, and not suddenly withdraw or extend when and if they find a few more pounds down the back of a Westminster sofa. To paraphrase the leader of Kent County Council yesterday, without knowing what is happening, bus operators cannot plan. I think the DfT needs to set negotiations in chain now with operators for a £2.50 fare cap between January and June 2025, then £3 June - December 2025 (as I believe was originally planned for 2024), and then consider the future from there.

After all, it was meant to be a fare cap, not a permanent fare undercut. (Yes, I know, like speed limits they are often driven to rather than under, but the principle of the name applies!)
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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The people who are more likely to want to pay by cash, older people, get free travel anyway.
That is why that people who run the NHS hospital appointment systems for out-patient appointments take utter delight in making 0845 or 0900 appointments for elderly people.... <(. (Free travel is not all-day).

I think the DfT needs to set negotiations in chain now with operators for a £2.50 fare between January and June 2025, then £3 June - December 2025 (as I believe was originally planned for 2024), and then consider the future from there.
That would mean, in my area, people being charged £3.00 to go the three bus stops to the local shops, a distance that takes some time to walk.
 
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duncombec

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That would mean, in my area, people being charged £3.00 to go the three bus stops to the local shops, a distance that takes some time to walk.
I've edited my post to add the missing word "cap" (most people I know call it the "£2 fare", not the "£2 fare cap"!), but I think you knew what I meant...

What would the uncapped fare be for that same journey?
 

Bletchleyite

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If it goes up to the point that fares return to being staged, then you lose the potential advantage of being able to move to tap-in-only contactless as is used in London, which speeds boarding massively.

On the other hand I do question whether we should be offering Oxford-Cambridge* fares for £2, you really could justify a lot more than that even if you subsidised it down from a commercial sort of price.

* The United Counties X5 is no longer a through service but does offer through fares - I used the X5 (only for a short trip or two) last week and ended up with a ticket issued to Cambridge from Buckingham, presumably because the driver was just being lazy and didn't want to change the stages.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I've edited my post to add the missing word "cap" (most people I know call it the "£2 fare", not the "£2 fare cap"!), but I think you knew what I meant...

What would the uncapped fare be for that same journey?
It was less than £3.00, according to a neighbour aged 84 who has lived in this neighbourhood for years before moving to our six house development site.

Where I lived in the rural border area of Mottram St Andrew and Prestbury before moving here, it was two miles from the nearest bus stop or railway station. I had not driven since the stroke that I suffered in July 2012 and my late wife who died in November 2021 used her Land Rover Discovery until her consultant advised her to give up driving in her mid-70s, so we used the services of a very reliable taxi firm after that.
 

tomoufc

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£2 to £2.50 would be a significantly less big jump than £2 to £4.10, which is my current non-capped fare...

It's also important to remember that in some circumstances, those who are still paying cash are those with least money and most need to budget (there is anecdotal evidence to suggest this in multiple areas of payment, not just for bus fares), so asking people to go back to finding 10ps and the like will not be helpful. Keep it to as few coins as possible. I recall being told some years ago that cash is not there to help you spend, it's to stop you from spending: unlike plastic, when you run out of the physical thing, you can't keep using it.

Ultimately, this was introduced as a "help for households" measure, not a public transport improvement measure, and I think all the other "help" measures have now been withdrawn. Even as a non-driving (never learned), full-adult-fare paying customer, I accept it can't continue forever.

What is needed now is a clear plan that the government stick to, and not suddenly withdraw or extend when and if they find a few more pounds down the back of a Westminster sofa. To paraphrase the leader of Kent County Council yesterday, without knowing what is happening, bus operators cannot plan. I think the DfT needs to set negotiations in chain now with operators for a £2.50 fare cap between January and June 2025, then £3 June - December 2025 (as I believe was originally planned for 2024), and then consider the future from there.

After all, it was meant to be a fare cap, not a permanent fare undercut. (Yes, I know, like speed limits they are often driven to rather than under, but the principle of the name applies!
A well argued post, but it hinges on the idea that there is a shortage of money for public services, which is nonsense (although, to be fair, a nonsense that virtually all political parties and media organisations have signed up to).
 

Qwerty133

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Sadly they probably will but they’d be better off removing all free entitlements (OAPs, disabled etc) with the savings being used to keep fares low for all.
 

Bletchleyite

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Sadly they probably will but they’d be better off removing all free entitlements (OAPs, disabled etc) with the savings being used to keep fares low for all.

Absolutely not. The free passes for older people are beneficial to all by encouraging older people whose senses are failing to give up driving sooner or drive less. It's not a pure benefit for the individual like e.g. the winter fuel payment, it benefits everyone.

You could add a fee, but then this effect will be reduced for a very small amount of extra money.
 

Teapot42

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Whether by design or accident it seems that in many areas rather than being a cap you have a £2 flat fare. Indeed after being charged £2 for going three stops I asked our local operator if there were any fares under £2 as I was unable to find any on their online fares guide.

There is almost an issue at both ends where the £2 cap is overly generous for longer trips, but there is no incentive to bring fares down for local journeys.

For example, why pay £4 (or multiples thereof if travelling as a group) to pop in to town when you can pay a quid or two to park for a couple of hours? Finding the balance will be tricky, but £1 or £1.50 for rides under say 10-15 minutes could well get a lot of people out of cars.

Another issue is linked journeys. London does this well where a single fare applies when you change, but away from there, unless you are lucky enough to have a direct bus to where you are going you end up paying for 2 singles, or buying the relevant day ticket. (Not always available if multiple operators are involved, or at least not that cheap)

One issue I can see why any variable cap though is enforcing it - which is the beauty of the current system. How many drivers could keep track of how far someone buying a short hop ticket actually travels?

We are almost putting the cart before the horse here - what's really needed is a country-wide Oyster-like system, tap on and off, then we can start planning distance-based fares.
 

tomoufc

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There's a big social justice issue here too - it's not just about enticing people out of their cars, but putting on affordable provision for those that can't afford one. Busses were way too expensive before the cap, and anything other than a small rise in line with inflation (so not a 50p jump) would end up hitting the least well off hardest.
 

Teapot42

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Absolutely not. The free passes for older people are beneficial to all by encouraging older people whose senses are failing to give up driving sooner or drive less. It's not a pure benefit for the individual like e.g. the winter fuel payment, it benefits everyone.

You could add a fee, but then this effect will be reduced for a very small amount of extra money.
No reason it couldn't be tiered, and indeed open to more groups.

Once you reach 60 you can pay say £50 a year for a pass which gives half-fares outside peak times.
Reach retirement age, £25 a year for free travel.
Reach 75 pass becomes free and valid at all times.

But also, have things like a group card at say £50 which entitles the holder to bring one adult and several children with them at a reduced rate outside peak hours.
 
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