Split tickets, separate bookings, missed connection. Trainsplit charging an admin fee on abandoned second booking

[Royston Vasey]

I have spent thousands of pounds with Trainsplit over the years and this is the first time I am in dispute with them. They are charging a fee when I believe I am entitled to a full refund due to partial abandonment.

Journey was Newcastle NCL - Kings Cross KGX - St Pancras STP - Farringdon ZFD - Stratford SRA - Ipswich IPS - Cambridge CBG. The long way round, sure, but the one I wanted to take and saved a few pounds.

Tickets:

NCL-KGX Advance Single booked with LNER in July. Planned arrival 13.09.24 at 1248. Train arrived 47 minutes late.
STP-CBG via SRA and IPS, Advance LU Z1-3 to Cambridge booked last week with Trainsplit. Thameslink and Elizabeth Line connections. Planned departure SRA 1337. Trains ran to time. £15.90.

Connection at STP was missed and I would have been delayed 60 minutes into Cambridge (hourly service)

With exactly this sort of potential dispute in mind, I replaced the journey with another on Trainsplit, direct to Cambridge (which was more expensive), in case they would only replace the journey, for a fee, and this is indeed what they offered.

I destroyed the tickets whilst en route to London and requested a full refund of the Z1-3 to Cambridge ticket due to disruption.

However I have now had a long exchange with customer service who have said their final and best offer is £10.90 for a replaced journey, which is net of a £5 admin fee. They state that since the two bookings to and from London were not in a single transaction, they are unrelated and they are contractually absolved.


Clearly, a delay to one leg of my journey is the reason I could not complete my journey as booked.


Please help me understand why they are so adamant here, as I am of the opinion this is in breach of NRCoT:

- The Railway delayed me and my rights should be retained on a split ticket, regardless of where each portion was booked. As per the NRCoT Condition 14.1, I am entitled to make a single journey on split tickets. As such my NCL-LON-SRA-IPS-CBG itinerary was one single journey, which I abandoned in London due to the delay.

- The connection between tickets I had booked was a legal connection and this is not in dispute.

- NRCoT Conditions 28.4: In other circumstances disruption to train services may mean that you are entitled to compensation or a refund on your Ticket. Part F explains your rights to refunds and compensation. "Disruption to train services" is not limited to those trains booked on one ticket.

- NRCoT Condition 29.2: In such cases, a deduction from your refund in the case of part-used Tickets, will normally be calculated on the cost of the journey(s) actually made. An administration charge may also be made, which will not exceed £10 per Ticket; however, if the administrative charge and/or other deductions exceed the refund amount no refund will be payable. If a delay or cancellation on any leg of your journey is the reason you could not complete your journey, you are entitled to a full refund on any Tickets held for that journey under condition 30.1

- NRCoT Condition 30.1 Conditions 30.1 - 30.4 … also apply if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to a delay to, or cancellation of, your service. In such cases, you are permitted to return to your point of origin and still get a refund. You may return an unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee charged, if you decide not to travel because the train you intended to use is: • cancelled, or • delayed

- In addition, article 15 of the Passenger Rights Obligation also states: Where there is a reasonable expectation that a delay that will lead to arrival at the final destination 60 minutes or more late, passengers may either choose to have a:

• refund of the fare when the journey will no longer serve the passenger's originally planned purpose. The refund will include the return journey where appropriate

Who is right?

@Raileasy

 

[Raileasy]

Just thought it might be useful to clarify the position here, having done a further review of the case. Essentially, we accept the argument that it makes no difference where parts of a journey are booked in terms of how the National Rail Conditions of Travel constitutes a 'journey'.

As it happens (for the interest of those reading - we'll refund the admin fee to Royston Vasey anyway, as we appreciate our original justification was incorrect), the outcome was correct even if our logic to get there was wrong.

It looks like the quotes above are from an older version of the NRCoT. The updated NRCoT states in 30.1:

You are also entitled to a refund under these Conditions if you begin your journey but are unable to complete it due to a delay to, or cancellation of your service and you return to your point of origin.

If we accept that the delay from Newcastle to London was part of the same journey (and hence we were incorrect initially), due to this clause we believe the traveller would need to return to Newcastle, not use the CoJ process to continue to Cambridge via another means, to be eligible for the disruption refund without an admin fee. This was newly added as an explicit requirement in the latest version of the Conditions.

 

[Haywain]

With exactly this sort of potential dispute in mind, I replaced the journey with another on Trainsplit, direct to Cambridge (which was more expensive), in case they would only replace the journey, for a fee, and this is indeed what they offered

It would have been entirely reasonable to have used the existing ticket on a direct train from Liverpool Street to Cambridge instead of the more circuitous route after the delay. You could also have asked LNER to reroute you on a GTR service to reduce the overall delay, although you may not have had much luck with that. Refunding the original London to Cambridge ticket means that you have no grounds to ask for the new one to be refunded, and have altered any entitlement you may have had for Delay Repay compensation.

 

[Royston Vasey]

It would have been entirely reasonable to have used the existing ticket on a direct train from Liverpool Street to Cambridge instead of the more circuitous route after the delay. You could also have asked LNER to reroute you on a GTR service to reduce the overall delay, although you may not have had much luck with that. Refunding the original London to Cambridge ticket means that you have no grounds to ask for the new one to be refunded, and have altered any entitlement you may have had for Delay Repay compensation.

I’ve not asked a refund for the more expensive replacement, only for the full value of the arguably unusable cheaper original ticket, fee-free.

Separately, I’m claiming DR from LNER based solely on the NCL-KGX ticket.

In effect Trainsplit are saying I have no rights for refund of the original advance because they are two separate journeys (but can do a ticket replacement), yet if I had presented at Liverpool St as you suggest asking to travel off-route I’d have expected it to be allowed, as a split ticketed single journey.

They’re saying it’s two separate contracts with two separate booking agents, but if that logic held I’d have no right to be rerouted, which I don’t think is true.

Of course, they’re not the TOC and GA may or may not have used their discretion in that circumstance, whether within the rules or not.

And as you imply, I didn’t ask to be rerouted, which is on me but I was pragmatic about getting home!

 

[Haywain]

I’ve not asked a refund for the more expensive replacement

No, but that would have been an option in lieu of rerouting.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Just thought it might be useful to clarify the position here, having done a further review of the case. Essentially, we accept the argument that it makes no difference where parts of a journey are booked in terms of how the National Rail Conditions of Travel constitutes a 'journey'.

As it happens (for the interest of those reading - we'll refund the admin fee to Royston Vasey anyway, as we appreciate our original justification was incorrect), the outcome was correct even if our logic to get there was wrong.

It looks like the quotes above are from an older version of the NRCoT. The updated NRCoT states in 30.1:



If we accept that the delay from Newcastle to London was part of the same journey (and hence we were incorrect initially), due to this clause we believe the traveller would need to return to Newcastle, not use the CoJ process to continue to Cambridge via another means, to be eligible for the disruption refund without an admin fee. This was newly added as an explicit requirement in the latest version of the Conditions.

I missed this post when reading @Haywain's post, so apologies, the last response didn't have this context.

Well understood and much appreciated, I was aware of the new wording of 30.1 but it doesn't seem to account for a partial abandonment. By way of its generality, the last version sort-of did, or at least allow some room for interpretation.

I guess that I am treating it as one journey but clearly had well used and enjoyed 80% of the overall journey and was not going to return to origin. Only because the tickets were separate was there a clean way to "partially abandon". Partial abandonment isn't well defined or accounted for in the new Condition 30.1!

Thanks for a satisfactory conclusion @Raileasy!

 

[realemil]

I missed this post when reading @Haywain's post, so apologies, the last response didn't have this context.

Well understood and much appreciated, I was aware of the new wording of 30.1 but it doesn't seem to account for a partial abandonment. By way of its generality, the last version sort-of did, or at least allow some room for interpretation.

I guess that I am treating it as one journey but clearly had well used and enjoyed 80% of the overall journey and was not going to return to origin. Only because the tickets were separate was there a clean way to "partially abandon". Partial abandonment isn't well defined or accounted for in the new Condition 30.1!

Thanks for a satisfactory conclusion @Raileasy!

I think that partial abandonment is accounted for... it doesn't exist.

The whole point of 30.1 is to prevent situations of partial abandonment, otherwise, somebody could use a Wick to Plymouth ticket, when they're actually going to Bristol, and if there's a delay they could claim a full refund, and be at Bristol, where they wanted to go.

As you need to return to point of origin; it means that this is no longer the case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that partial abandonment is accounted for... it doesn't exist.

The whole point of 30.1 is to prevent situations of partial abandonment, otherwise, somebody could use a Wick to Plymouth ticket, when they're actually going to Bristol, and if there's a delay they could claim a full refund, and be at Bristol, where they wanted to go.

As you need to return to point of origin; it means that this is no longer the case.

Yeah, this is the issue.

What I've done in this situation is gone to a booking office and asked them what to do, and they non-issued the original and issued a replacement short ticket despite the fact that the original had been used. It did help that it wasn't far from where it was purchased and was the same TOC, though.

 

[zero]

somebody could use a Wick to Plymouth ticket, when they're actually going to Bristol, and if there's a delay they could claim a full refund, and be at Bristol, where they wanted to go.

Huh? If I'm actually going to Bristol, why would I buy a ticket to Plymouth and hope for a delay (but only beyond Bristol) so that I can refund the split ticket / portion of a ticket that I never wanted to use in the first place?

If there is reliably a delay that passengers are taking advantage of, perhaps the TOCs should be fixing the causes of the delay or amending the timetable.

If I intended to go to Plymouth and a delay meant that my plans in Plymouth were ruined, but I could salvage the day by doing something else in Bristol instead, morally I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to change my ticket to a Bristol ticket and pay the price I would have paid to Bristol at the time I bought the Plymouth ticket.