Possible ideas for a Southampton Metro?

[DynamicSpirit]

mods note - split from this thread

Southampton has quite a few stations but, other than Southampton Central and Southampton Airport Parkway they all have a very poor service, typically hourly, which obviously leads to low usage. So how could that be changed. What would you like to see if we had a Southampton area rail metro service? And what infrastructure constraints are preventing that and would need to be sorted?

(This discussion has arisen from the thread about the now-cancelled Waterside Line reopening)

However, that is a reasonable point with bus services. Although its deregulated, bluestar and other operators do provide a pretty good service, and SWR generally operate poor local services due to the awkwardness of southampton's rail network, not helped by southampton central being a bottleneck. Unfortunately, you would need a major and extremely expensive rebuild to get any improvement in the stations capacity, and that is never going to happen without any further growth.

wouldn't a much simpler/cheaper solution to capacity at Southampton Central be to as far as possible avoid terminating any services there? That would also answer @chris2 's point about lack of cross-city connectivity. So for example, the Hythe service (if ever built) could become a half-hourly all stops Hythe to Eastleigh, or perhaps Hythe to Fareham.

 

[Dr Hoo]

wouldn't a much simpler/cheaper solution to capacity at Southampton Central be to as far as possible avoid terminating any services there? That would also answer @chris2 's point about lack of cross-city connectivity. So for example, the Hythe service (if ever built) could become a half-hourly all stops Hythe to Eastleigh, or perhaps Hythe to Fareham.

The problem is that the area around Southampton has many operational constraints apart from Central station. Amidst a lot of very long and slow freight trains there are plenty of flat junctions, single lines at Chandlers Ford, Botley, Laverstock and the Hythe branch itself; main line shunts to terminate at Romsey, Eastleigh and Winchester; and depot movements at Northam and Eastleigh. The idea that there’s loads of spare capacity is totally misconceived.

 

[chris2]

Yes I’m sure you’re right that capacity is very limited in places. In fact, I’d be very interested to understand more about this and what you would have to address in order to make such a local metro network a possibility.

 

[zwk500]

Yes I’m sure you’re right that capacity is very limited in places. In fact, I’d be very interested to understand more about this and what you would have to address in order to make such a local metro network a possibility.

It's a different thread, but basically it'd require a rewrite of the entire timetable (which would affect the entire SWR and XC timetables), some redoubling, and either a lot more capacity to hold freights in the area, reroute freights away from Central, or grade-separation of key junctions.

 

[Magdalia]

Sadly I never consider the train to get over to the east side as there's no direct train that goes across town.

As things stand you have a public who largely don’t think to use the railway for getting around locally, because the service frequencies are poor. But then you struggle to justify new services based on the current low current ridership.

If not for some kind of long-term strategic master plan, how else do you break out of that cycle?

I don't know Southampton very well, but these comments struck a chord with me comparing the experience in Cambridge.

Both cities are difficult to get around because of geographical constraints, especially rivers. But I'm quite envious of what Southampton has already: four rail routes with a dense network of urban stations.

With regard to long term strategic master plans I'd say be careful what you wish for, we had the Cambridge Autonomous Metro! And there are still crayonistas that love to draw maps of Cambridge with light rail or trams and tunnels under the river. In the current economic circumstances it is imperative to make best use of what is already here, and Southampton has the routes and stations it needs. If the Hythe line didn't exist only the usual suspects would be thinking of building it, unless it is going to be accompanied by huge development of housing and/or employment along the route.

wouldn't a much simpler/cheaper solution to capacity at Southampton Central be to as far as possible avoid terminating any services there?

Go back and look at the timetable for 40 years ago, with all stations services on the Winchester-Bournemouth and Portsmouth-Romsey axes. Restoring that, with a 30 minute service, would make it easy to get from one side of Southampton to the other by train again.

basically it'd require a rewrite of the entire timetable

Looking at what's on Real Time Trains that would be a good thing, what a mess! Having 4 different franchise operators has clearly produced a sub-optimal result. Something for GBR to sort?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Looking at what's on Real Time Trains that would be a good thing, what a mess! Having 4 different franchise operators has clearly produced a sub-optimal result. Something for GBR to sort?

(Having previously worked in and around Hampshire.) Some time back in the early-ish 1980s I was waiting for a train at Southampton. It was very 'congested' at the time because the tunnel was going through one of its periodic reconstructions and only had a single track. I took the opportunity to pull out a BR Management Brief from my bag. It was about sectorisation.

I looked round the station. In the platforms at that moment there was a London EMU (London & South East), a Portsmouth-Cardiff train (Provincial), a 'cross-country' inter-regional train for somewhere 'up north' (InterCity), an intermodal (Freight) and some parcels vans in bay platform 5 (Parcels). I scratched my head as to how this was all going to work but then 'Southern Region' didn't really seem to be very relevant to this mix either.

 

[zwk500]

Looking at what's on Real Time Trains that would be a good thing, what a mess! Having 4 different franchise operators has clearly produced a sub-optimal result. Something for GBR to sort?

4 TOCs, Multiple FOCs, trains needing to fit into other far-away patterns at places like Brighton, Waterloo, Reading, New Street, Manchester, Leeds, Manchester, Bristol etc, an intensive commuter service on the London-Southampton axis interacting with local trains for Portsmouth, Freight trains running well beyond the general infrastructure length capability, etc, etc. Also throw COVID in the mix for having messed about with the patterns, the industrial dispute and subsequent staff shortages forcing XC in to an emergency timetable and yeah, it's a mess.

Really it needs 4-tracking throughout from Winchester to Totton but haha good luck with that. GBR may be able to do something depending on how far back the DfT are willing to stand on things like service levels and provision.

But again, not really the thread for it!

Paths were found in a projected standard 2-hourly pattern based on the Dec18 WTT amended for 775m freight for a 2tph Clas 158/159 shuttle service between Southampton Central and Marchwood not calling Milbrook or Redbridge as 1 path in the 4 needed to be on the Fast Lines departing Southampton central. IIRC, it had services at approximately a 25/35 minute split in one direction and a 20/40 minute split in the other (can't quote details as no longer have access to the report). The connections to the London service were quite good in both directions, ISTR.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

But again, not really the thread for it!

Well it is now

I can speak with some authority on Millbrook as it is my local station...True, it's not in Millbrook, but the name being wrong doesn't make it badly situated and I find it very handy for jaunts over to Eastleigh, Romsey, Salisbury etc. These kind of journeys are faster by rail for me. I had been looking forward to adding Marchwood onto the list so I could take the bike into the forest without having to negotiate the long drag out of town. But it was never going to do that anyway I guess. As others have said the main problem with the station is not the destinations, but rather, the infrequency of the trains.

I'm perfectly happy to go to Central for longer distance trains, but I would love to have more frequent regional trains from Millbrook.

Sadly I never consider the train to get over to the east side as there's no direct train that goes across town. This is one of the most annoying journeys to have to do by car - after school, it can take an hour to go from Shirley to Bitterne - but the change and the long waits just don't make it viable.

But turning to the waterside, the problem for me is that it's a standalone idea. I think it would have been better if it had been proposed as one phase of a broader, Solent metro scheme, where a bigger, integrated, well-publicised and politically-led masterplan was being pursued. Perhaps then there would have been a broader case to make for it, as you could demonstrate its usefulness as part of a much broader network of connectivity around the region.

As things stand you have a public who largely don’t think to use the railway for getting around locally, because the service frequencies are poor. But then you struggle to justify new services based on the current low current ridership.

If not for some kind of long-term strategic master plan, how else do you break out of that cycle?

That is one of those tricky things, how you don't want to invest too much into a plan to increase capacity, if it is a case where no demand could be successfully obtained, such as in places like maybe the scottish highlands, where I'll use an extreme example where Thurso (the most northernly station in Great Britain) in fact gets more passengers at 30,000 than Millbrook's 25,000, despite the former getting 8 tpd, and the latter getting 1 tph (and in 2 directions, rather than 1 direction). When you consider differences in potential demand however, Thurso is quite low, and can't really be boosted that awful much. By contrast, Millbrook has plenty of potential passengers nearby, but due to the relatively poor service, and only being useful for very particular local connections (Romsey, Salisbury, Eastleigh mainly), there is great potential for demand to be increased in such a scenario. In general, the easiest answer would be to get some additional local connections calling at both Millbrook and Redbridge, and expands the potential market that people who live close by could use it, particularly for scenarios like a short regional outing.
In general though, while this whole idea of a Solent Metro sounds like a nice idea in concept, I think the chances of it becoming reality are slim to none. An outrageous amount of money would need to be invested just to add extra capacity to Southampton Central, which is a major bottleneck with platforms 2 and 3 at the moment. That would just be one component, because the bigger part of such a project would in all likelihood be to add an underground tunnel under the Itchen, and maybe even the Test depending on where the most practical point for it to surface would be. There would also be enourmous upgrades required to existing lines as well, like maybe adding proper turnback sidings or bay platforms. While the whole project would very much make cross-city journeys possible, with an extremely high price tag, complex planning and Southampton probably not being a big enough city to justify such an investment, at least from Government, its simply wishful thinking from Southampton officials.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

My suggestion, thinking in terms of what would be useful to passengers, would be for something like:

1. A half hourly all stations service, Hythe-Southampton-Eastleigh-Romsey
2. A half hourly all stations service, Romsey-Southampton-Fareham (possibly running on to Portsmouth, but that's out of scope for this thread).

Those would roughly replace the current stoppers on those routes, and would ideally be timed to provide a 15-minute frequency between Redbridge and St. Denys. I'm not sure though what infrastructure improvements would be required to enable that.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

My suggestion, thinking in terms of what would be useful to passengers, would be for something like:

1. A half hourly all stations service, Hythe-Southampton-Eastleigh-Romsey
2. A half hourly all stations service, Romsey-Southampton-Fareham (possibly running on to Portsmouth, but that's out of scope for this thread).

Those would roughly replace the current stoppers on those routes, and would ideally be timed to provide a 15-minute frequency between Redbridge and St. Denys. I'm not sure though what infrastructure improvements would be required to enable that.

Sounds like a nice idea, but the main issue is still ultimately Southampton Central, how platforms 2 and 3 are blocked for around half the time, and they would have to very carefully path the extra trains between long distance services to allow them to use platforms 1 and 4 for those services. As it stands right now (albeit, that would be if the Hythe service started at Totton, as local services formerly terminated there, and the turnback siding could be bought back into use), that is a recipe for disaster, as the slightest delay would mess up all of the trains, and could lead them to be in the wrong order entering Southampton Central, and there isn't really anywhere were they could pass between Redbridge and St Denys if Southampton Central is filled.

I also can slightly question the combinations of trains. and if it was up to me, a better combo might be Hythe/Totton-Southampton-Fareham (and maybe then Portsmouth on maybe at least one), and retaining the current Salisbury-Romsey-Southampton-Eastleigh-Chandlers Ford-Romsey, but at an increased frequency. With the former, that would unlock an entirely new connection from Fareham to part of the South West Mainline after the split, and your suggestion for Romsey-Southampton-Fareham would just be a slow duplication of the existing GWR service, that wouldn't unlock any connections from the current busier stations. Just a thought though, but I do think that opening up new connections would be of major benefit. Nontheless, I really think though having a trunk of 4 tph, comparable to even some local lines in London would encourage more people to use the train than the bus.

 

[brad465]

How conveniently located would a station on the old cruise terminal branch in the Chapel/St Mary's area be for the city centre? If it were no less convenient than Central, maybe some terminating trains could be sent to terminate there, freeing up space in the Central station.

 

[zwk500]

How conveniently located would a station on the old cruise terminal branch in the Chapel/St Mary's area be for the city centre? If it were no less convenient than Central, maybe some terminating trains could be sent to terminate there, freeing up space in the Central station.

Much less convenient, at least operationally and to passengers - the old Southampton Terminus has been built on so there's very little space, and separate stations isn't wonderfully passenger-friendly.

 

[RedPostJunc]

Sounds like a nice idea, but the main issue is still ultimately Southampton Central, how platforms 2 and 3 are blocked for around half the time, and they would have to very carefully path the extra trains between long distance services to allow them to use platforms 1 and 4 for those services. As it stands right now (albeit, that would be if the Hythe service started at Totton, as local services formerly terminated there, and the turnback siding could be bought back into use), that is a recipe for disaster, as the slightest delay would mess up all of the trains, and could lead them to be in the wrong order entering Southampton Central, and there isn't really anywhere were they could pass between Redbridge and St Denys if Southampton Central is filled.

I also can slightly question the combinations of trains. and if it was up to me, a better combo might be Hythe/Totton-Southampton-Fareham (and maybe then Portsmouth on maybe at least one), and retaining the current Salisbury-Romsey-Southampton-Eastleigh-Chandlers Ford-Romsey, but at an increased frequency. With the former, that would unlock an entirely new connection from Fareham to part of the South West Mainline after the split, and your suggestion for Romsey-Southampton-Fareham would just be a slow duplication of the existing GWR service, that wouldn't unlock any connections from the current busier stations. Just a thought though, but I do think that opening up new connections would be of major benefit. Nontheless, I really think though having a trunk of 4 tph, comparable to even some local lines in London would encourage more people to use the train than the bus.

Extending the existing Portsmouth - Southampton stopping service through to Totton with stops at Millbrook and Redbridge would open up the possibility of crossing from East to/from West. That would improve the journey times from one side of the city to the other, especially during peak periods. Whether it would bring in additional revenue is a totally different matter!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Much less convenient, at least operationally and to passengers - the old Southampton Terminus has been built on so there's very little space, and separate stations isn't wonderfully passenger-friendly.

I suspect the only way that would work for passengers is if you opened the line up by building a chord so metro trains (from Hythe or Romsey?) could travel from Southampton Central to a new station somewhere around Central Bridge. That way you open the east side of the city centre to rail access but without the problem of, some trains going to one station, other trains to another station. But that probably falls within the realm of, far too expensive to build relative to the benefit for passengers.

 

[devon_belle]

If it was an option (which it probably is not), how much capacity would be retrieved by sending Western Docks freight via Laverstock? I say Laverstock because while a chord at Romsey seems fairly doable, a northern chord at Eastleigh is unlikely to be possible. Granted, the FoCs would not be happy, but I am still curious.

Assuming there's no chance of another Southampton Tunnel bore, it seems like Southampton will remain very congested for decades to come. Even if a sizeable tram network was constructed, you'd still have to have local trains from Salisbury and Portsmouth so I don't see much saving there.

 

[zwk500]

If it was an option (which it probably is not), how much capacity would be retrieved by sending Western Docks freight via Laverstock? I say Laverstock because while a chord at Romsey seems fairly doable, a northern chord at Eastleigh is unlikely to be possible. Granted, the FoCs would not be happy, but I am still curious.

Some already does run that way. The capacity saving at Southampton is moderate but is offset by the problems caused by needing to use the single track Laverstock curve, and slow crossing moves at Redbridge.

Assuming there's no chance of another Southampton Tunnel bore, it seems like Southampton will remain very congested for decades to come. Even if a sizeable tram network was constructed, you'd still have to have local trains from Salisbury and Portsmouth so I don't see much saving there.

The bit between Northam Jn and the tunnel is just as big a problem. However space exists to build additional platform capacity at Southampton Central, however it'd need a thameslink-level rewrite of the timetable to maximise capacity.

 

[devon_belle]

However space exists to build additional platform capacity at Southampton Central, however it'd need a thameslink-level rewrite of the timetable to maximise capacity.

I presume this requires demolishing the derelict Toys-R-Us and slueing the dual carriageway a little? I think any expansions of Southampton 'Central' are preferable to resiting the station even further to the west.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

Much less convenient, at least operationally and to passengers - the old Southampton Terminus has been built on so there's very little space, and separate stations isn't wonderfully passenger-friendly.

It could just about work out in all honesty if more trains called at St Denys, because that could effectively become "Southampton Junction", and marketed as the point where passengers who require the long distance services from Southampton Terminus (or some new station around that sort of area) can change trains. If that was to happen, Southampton Central would effectively go back to being Southampton West. Alternatively, you could have Southampton Terminus consist of a mixture of through services, amd shuttle services to Southampton Airport Parkway, which would predominantly be for connections. Ultimately, it does just seem like on balance though it may be slightly difficult to make work.

I presume this requires demolishing the derelict Toys-R-Us and slueing the dual carriageway a little? I think any expansions of Southampton 'Central' are preferable to resiting the station even further to the west.

Yes it would. The difficulty is that the land around is all built on by this point, so you would need to acquire land. If yiu were to resite it further west, you get one problem where much of that land is already built on anyway, and you risk ending up with a situation with Bournemouth where the station is way out of town, so it makes it totally impractical for any if the suburban stations, given door to door jouneys by train into Southampton would take too long, and cause their already low passengers to decline further.

 

[devon_belle]

It could just about work out in all honesty if more trains called at St Denys, because that could effectively become "Southampton Junction"

I don't think St Denys is even remotely equipped to become a station of this importance. Parking and bus connections are the first issues which come to my mind, notwithstanding it being a fairly dodgy area (having lived there). Something in the Northam area would possibly work, being handy for the hospital, Solent University, and the stadium. This would of course require the loss of the depot. If we're being fanciful, we would probably demolish Southampton Central and use the space to dive down for a new tunnel with a large cut-and-cover station under one of the central parks. This alignment would cut off the sharp curve at Northam and come out somewhere near Bevois Park. The old bore and line via Northam could even be used for freight, as we would still have the Eastern docks anyway. The operative word is fanciful, though!

Yes it would. The difficulty is that the land around is all built on by this point, so you would need to acquire land. If yiu were to resite it further west, you get one problem where much of that land is already built on anyway, and you risk ending up with a situation with Bournemouth where the station is way out of town, so it makes it totally impractical for any if the suburban stations, given door to door jouneys by train into Southampton would take too long, and cause their already low passengers to decline further.

I remember some fanciful (notice the theme) ideas about a new 10-platform station somewhere to the west of Southampton Central, but I agree that would not be a good solution for the people of Southampton. The bus network in Southampton is good and well-used, but I think a tram would be needed if that solution was adopted. I think those new station plans, if they were ever serious at all, are long dead and buried now.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

on't think St Denys is even remotely equipped to become a station of this importance. Parking and bus connections are the first issues which come to my mind,

The specific reason I say St Denys is mainly because its the point where the West Coastway line means the South West Main Line, but before any potential branch to Southampton Terminus splits off. That way, it could hypothetically be the kind of station where nearly all trains in the area could stop, and provide any connections required. For obvious reasons, under such scenario, you would effectively need a major rebuild to the station, and as the whole idea is (as they say) wishful thinking, I acknowledge full well its never actually going to happen.

 

[zwk500]

The specific reason I say St Denys is mainly because its the point where the West Coastway line means the South West Main Line, but before any potential branch to Southampton Terminus splits off. That way, it could hypothetically be the kind of station where nearly all trains in the area could stop, and provide any connections required. For obvious reasons, under such scenario, you would effectively need a major rebuild to the station, and as the whole idea is (as they say) wishful thinking, I acknowledge full well its never actually going to happen.

Stopping fast trains additionally for interchange purposes with local stoppers will be unlikely to get a positive case. It's not like Bristol Parkway where two long-distance services are crossing. A minute in an XC or London Waterloo fast will be very valuable, spending 2-3 of them to pick up people hopping to Southampton Central is unlikely to return the benefits.

There's no space down the Eastern Docks branch for anything to be built, and there are level crossings that would immediately bring a halt to any proposals to reinstate the line for passenger services.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Sounds like a nice idea, but the main issue is still ultimately Southampton Central, how platforms 2 and 3 are blocked for around half the time, and they would have to very carefully path the extra trains between long distance services to allow them to use platforms 1 and 4 for those services.

Out of interest, why are the platforms blocked for so long? As far as I can make out, Southampton Central sees 6 through trains an hour plus 3 terminating (from Portsmouth/Brighton/etc.). The through trains aren't going to block the platforms for long, so I'm guessing the issue is with the terminators? One of those (the stopper from Portsmouth) shouldn't be an issue because that would become one of the 4tph through metro services I'm suggesting, so that leaves the two tph Southern trains. I can see you'd require some infrastructure for those, but it doesn't seem like an impossible problem to solve. Extending those trains to Salisbury (completely replacing the Salisbury-Romsey circular) could be one solution. If you don't want to do that, the least bad option may be to rebuild Southampton Central platform 5 into a though platform, so you can have 2 platforms each way for through trains plus one platform for the terminators.

I agree about pathing the extra trains being an issue. having only a 2-track railway means you'd probably want the fast trains to be able to overtake the metro ones at Southampton Central, which makes for a fragile timetable, and forces the metro trains to wait for 5 mins or so there, slightly reducing their attractiveness for through journeys.

I also can slightly question the combinations of trains. and if it was up to me, a better combo might be Hythe/Totton-Southampton-Fareham (and maybe then Portsmouth on maybe at least one), and retaining the current Salisbury-Romsey-Southampton-Eastleigh-Chandlers Ford-Romsey, but at an increased frequency.

A fair point. I can see the logic of that.

 

[swt_passenger]

I presume this requires demolishing the derelict Toys-R-Us and slueing the dual carriageway a little? I think any expansions of Southampton 'Central' are preferable to resiting the station even further to the west.

No demolition or movement of the dual carriageway is required IIRC, a potential six through platform layout was explained in the 2015 route strategy. On the down side they’d extend the alignment of P5 through the area where the existing station buildings are, forming an island, and on the up side they’d add a P0 on the back of what would become another island where Overline House is. I assume the normal station facilities would all end up on a transfer deck style set up, with minimal footprint entrances either side, all platforms being accessed via the deck. Station parking would have to be addressed differently though.

But I’m not convinced a local metro is that helpful, there are vast areas of the conurbation, and in the wider areas east of Southampton, that are nowhere near any of the railway corridors. I suppose I could always ask for the Meon Valley line to be reopened, I could walk to that…

Minor general points.

Westbound Portsmouth stoppers change headcodes at Southampton and become the next Southampton to Bournemouth stopping service, so currently they are effectively through trains. Extending anything towards Romsey needs bimode or battery trains or electrification. Terminating and reversal at Totton has always been awkward because the sidings are not electrified, that’s why a few years ago the peak extra Totton terminators that came from Winchester were run by 158s. When 450s replaced them they were extended to Brockenhurst.

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

No demolition or movement of the dual carriageway is required IIRC, a potential six through platform layout was explained in the 2015 route strategy. On the down side they’d extend the alignment of P5 through the area where the existing station buildings are, forming an island, and on the up side they’d add a P0 on the back of what would become another island where Overline House is. I assume the normal station facilities would all end up on a transfer deck style set up, with minimal footprint entrances either side, all platforms being accessed via the deck. Station parking would have to be addressed differently though.

But I’m not convinced a local metro is that helpful, there are vast areas of the conurbation, and in the wider areas east of Southampton, that are nowhere near any of the railway corridors. I suppose I could always ask for the Meon Valley line to be reopened, I could walk to that…

Minor general points.

Westbound Portsmouth stoppers change headcodes at Southampton and become the next Southampton to Bournemouth stopping service, so currently they are effectively through trains. Extending anything towards Romsey needs bimode or battery trains or electrification. Terminating and reversal at Totton has always been awkward because the sidings are not electrified, that’s why a few years ago the peak extra Totton terminators that came from Winchester were run by 158s. When 450s replaced them they were extended to Brockenhurst.

With extending platform 5, while it wouldn't require complete demolition, you would most likely need to slightly reroute the road, as you would need extra junctions to connect it with all 4 existing tracks to the east. They would most likely need to make sure there is a reasonable gradient, and thus they would most likely need to get the old Toys R us demolished so they can reroute the route a few yards to the South to fit in extra junctions more comfortably.

I assume with that idea for a platform 0, they would probably need to demolish that office block, and they would need to acquire quite a bit of land beyond the station car park, which would be needed in order to retain platform 1 as a full length platform, because the only other alternative would be to shorten it greatly, and you obviously can't do that because trains have to attach on that platform during the morning peak. The alternative could be to move those operations to platform 2, and have platform 1 take over the terminating trains which currently use platform 2, but that would require more crossovers at a flat junction, which would be a recipe for disaster during disruptions, which could easily happen with signal failures causing congestion immediately west of the station.

With Totton, I assume any such scheme to bring the turnback sidings back into use would be accompanied by electrification to allow them to be used. I remember there was a Solent study Network Rail published a few years ago (before the pandemic though) which had that as a recommendation, which would in turn allow Portsmouth to Southampton stoppers to be expanded to Totton, and avoid congesting Southampton Central. Since then, there has been a global pandemic, and the Waterloo to Poole stoppers went as a result, which would mitigate the need in the eyes of Network Rail, or GB Rail as it will be sooner or later.

 

[The Ham]

The specific reason I say St Denys is mainly because its the point where the West Coastway line means the South West Main Line, but before any potential branch to Southampton Terminus splits off. That way, it could hypothetically be the kind of station where nearly all trains in the area could stop, and provide any connections required. For obvious reasons, under such scenario, you would effectively need a major rebuild to the station, and as the whole idea is (as they say) wishful thinking, I acknowledge full well its never actually going to happen.

I had a similar thought, you'd need to lengthen the existing platforms (to the north) by about 120m to get full length trains to stop at the platforms. That's not quite enough to get to the A3035 junction, but probably enough you could provide an access point from there which could make it feel like the station is closer to more people.

With regards to where the train goes when it goes straight on, there's some sidings next to St Mary's which would make a convenient location for a station.

If a rail service was needed into the docks that would be more complex, however it wouldn't be impossible (especially if it was only a portion of a full length service).

I would also consider if it were possible to add a new station near the Uni halls (near the Woodmill Lane bridge over the railway), as that would improve access to the rail network for a lot of students. The existing Swaythling station is 1.5km from Parkway, so for many of those who would find that the extra 500m to the new station might not be that far from Parkway (of course some of the metro services could still call there given how infrequently trains call there).

By using the road bridge to cross Thomas Lewis Way it also makes it an easier station to access. As did positioning it closer to more bus routes (those along Portswood Road).

 

[chris2]

Is there a tram solution that could answer to the capacity issues both at the station and the tunnel, but that could still make use of the mainline in places? I don’t know if such a method exists, but it seems to me that the capacity issues at central aren’t solved cheaply and even if you did, you’d still have the issue that central isn’t good for everyone and the lines would still only run where they currently do.

Such a route might bypass central and the tunnel by coming off the mainline before central and then heading down towards the port before heading past the old terminus and then over itchen bridge, before reconnecting with the mainline at woolston.

You could then get passengers much more widely distributed across the centre by having stops right outside west quay/ikea, red funnel, ocean village, st Mary’s (via a connection to the freight line) and ocean village.

Then it’s always expandable in future to bring new routes into play as well.

Not saying it would be cheap, but it might be better value for money than heavy tunnelling solutions under the city / river.

 

[devon_belle]

Is there a tram solution that could answer to the capacity issues both at the station and the tunnel, but that could still make use of the mainline in places? I don’t know if such a method exists, but it seems to me that the capacity issues at central aren’t solved cheaply and even if you did, you’d still have the issue that central isn’t good for everyone and the lines would still only run where they currently do.

I initially thought this too, but as others have pointed out the conurbation is pretty expansive: I don't think a tram would be very appealing, plus you would still need local trains to places like Fareham, Romsey, and beyond. So I don't think you would really save any capacity on the mainline. The bus network in Southampton is pretty good in my experience, so any tram network would have to provide something that buses could not.

 

[zwk500]

Is there a tram solution that could answer to the capacity issues both at the station and the tunnel, but that could still make use of the mainline in places? I don’t know if such a method exists, but it seems to me that the capacity issues at central aren’t solved cheaply and even if you did, you’d still have the issue that central isn’t good for everyone and the lines would still only run where they currently do.

If you are building a tram, you will want it separate from the railway. From a google maps look (and I stress I don't know the city at all), a tram from a P&R site at the northern end of the M271 down Shirley Road to the Eastern Docks via the newer bit round the station and older city centre would be a good base (later lines could of course be added).
In an ideal world, this would allow Milbrook to be closed as well which could allow the tracks to be reconfigured to get freight better out of the way of the passenger services. However the bigger problems are junctions, which require either much faster transit speeds (next to impossible on the geometry available) or Grade-separation (impossible without major demolition).

 

[LCRTrainfan979]

I initially thought this too, but as others have pointed out the conurbation is pretty expansive: I don't think a tram would be very appealing, plus you would still need local trains to places like Fareham, Romsey, and beyond. So I don't think you would really save any capacity on the mainline. The bus network in Southampton is pretty good in my experience, so any tram network would have to provide something that buses could not.

That is a good point with the idea of trams, as a lot of them would be needed. However, having some of them replacing busier bus routes could provide additional capacity in the longer term. Following trains routes however wouldnt really help put an awful lot, as many of the quiet stations do get particular services beyond Southampton, such as all of the stations on the netley line with services to Portsmouth. Ultimately, say if this was a component of a "Solent metro", then some tram lines could be the answer. But many trams would be little more than a "white elephant" if it is just for Southampton.
To save capacity on the Netley line for example, you would need a tram line all of the way from Portsmouth to Southampton, in which case you could close down the quieter stations now better served by the tram, say maybe Bursledon and Hamble. That would in turn free up train paths which could be used for additional faster intercity or regional trains, such as extra trains to Portsmouth (because such a tram line would be very unlikely to be used end to end, as is the case in many other cities with trams such as Birmingham and Wolverhampton), and maybe to Littlehampton or Brighton, because the entire existing Portsmouth & Southsea to Southampton Central would now be unnecessary.
However, such an idea would have limitations. With Redbridge and Millbrook, both have direct services to Salisbury, and while Romsey could be close enough to be served by Tram, Salisbury is simply too far, as its mainly countryside leading up to it, and conventional rail is more practical for such journeys. Therefore, that would be a potential loss if under such a masterplan Millbrook and Redbridge were to close down and be replaced by trams.
Ultimately, while i can maybe see the advantages as a Solent-wide tram, i cant really see enough benefit of just doing it for Southampton only.

 

[devon_belle]

I think a Southampton tram network is inevitable in the next few decades. There are plenty of wide roads and usage of public transport (buses) is good. If I recall correctly, the main issues with pollution and road wear in Southampton come from lorries (usually heading for the docks), which would not be solved by trams. I suspect there is another thread somewhere about a Southampton tram network...

However, I don't think trams would be a major factor in helping with the rail problems in this area. I do like zwk500's idea of closing Millbrook if there was a tram network opened along that spine, which would allow some useful changes to be made to the infrastructure. Transformative, however, I suspect that is not.

I can envisage St Denys, Swaythling, Bitterne, Woolston, Sholing being obviated by a decent tram network covering major roads. Any further than that demand is probably less Southampton-oriented and would appreciate a proper train to Fareham and Portsmouth. You could potentially also send trams over the Itchen bridge, but in this facet buses are already competitive with the railway.

My understanding of planning/timetabling is far inferior to others' on this forum, so I don't know if cutting all those local stations would vastly improve things in the Southampton Central area, as presumably the Romsey Rocket and Pompey stoppers will still have to run. That's without mentioning the GWR, Southern, and SWR long-distance trains: we need to keep the Netley line for sure.