Grand Union Trains bought by First Group?

[Wymondham]

Previous company names
Name
GRAND UNION TRAINS LIMITED
Period 11 Jun 2018 - 20 Aug 2024

Judging by this companies house name change Grand Union, or at least the portion which was due to operate the Stirling to London service, has been brought by First Group. Does anyone know anything about this?

 

[trainswitheddy]

If true, won't this mean First competing with...themself? Over the West Coast

 

[JonathanH]

If true, won't this mean First competing with...themself? Over the West Coast

First won't be running the West Coast once the Avanti operation is nationalised. Nationalisation would appear likely to happen before any open access operation starts.

 

[Wymondham]

If true, won't this mean First competing with...themself? Over the West Coast

Not with full operator nationalisation around the corner, they might be preparing to offload Avanti/GWR onto the government when the provisions of the Passenger Railway Services Bill start being used and then use the new operator as a open access competitor to the former TOCs they just stopped running

 

[HST43257]

So this is First keeping a foot in the WCML operation after losing the Avanti franchise?

 

[dk1]

So this is First keeping a foot in the WCML operation after losing the Avanti franchise?

And possibly Virgin back into the mix too. Will be like all our yesterdays.

 

[trainswitheddy]

This is a bit of a far out one, but isn't this almost a tad monopolistic?

With First (I suppose Avanti isn't 100% first) controlling 2 different WCML operators?

Apologies if a silly question, haven't the slightest clue what I'm on about in all honesty

 

[dk1]

This is a bit of a far out one, but isn't this almost a tad monopolistic? With First (I suppose Avanti isn't 100% first) controlling 2 different WCML operators? Apologies if a silly question, haven't the slightest clue what I'm on about in all honesty

Not really. First own both routes from London to Exeter but that’s obviously not OA on either. They do however have Lumo & Hull Trains on the ECML. Lumo have also applied for rights to operate on the northern part of the WCML into Glasgow Central.

Some of us are also old enough to remember when Virgin operated two out of the three direct routes between London and Birmingham and both of those served New Street.

 

[brad465]

Let's stop arguing over the presence of an R. I think the situation OP is describing is far more interesting.
This is a bit of a far out one, but isn't this almost a tad monopolistic? With First (I suppose Avanti isn't 100% first) controlling 2 different WCML operators? Apologies if a silly question, haven't the slightest clue what I'm on about in all honesty

Well if it's not First, it's either a company run by a foreign state, an OLR, or worst of all, Govia.

 

[Efini92]

Yes it’s something I see quite prolifically on social media. Not sure why.

Since you mentioned that I’ve seen it twice. Not sure how the past tense of bring can be the same as the past tense of buy. Funny old thing the English language.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Not really. First own both routes from London to Exeter but that’s obviously not OA on either. They do however have Lumo & Hull Trains on the ECML. Lumo have also applied for rights to operate on the northern part of the WCML into Glasgow Central.

Some of us are also old enough to remember when Virgin operated two out of the three direct routes between London and Birmingham and both of those served New Street.

Ah okay. Thanks for the clarification, they seem to have amassed quite the empire.

Well if it's not First, it's either a company run by a foreign state, an OLR, or worst of all, Govia.

I shudder when you utter the name

 

[NSEWonderer]

This is a bit of a far out one, but isn't this almost a tad monopolistic?

With First (I suppose Avanti isn't 100% first) controlling 2 different WCML operators?

Apologies if a silly question, haven't the slightest clue what I'm on about in all honesty

Well talking about monopolies they'd have had one over the GWML up to Reading if GWR & SWR weren't bound for GBR, that's assuming they win the Elizabeth line concession with Keolis.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Judging by this companies house name change Grand Union, or at least the portion which was due to operate the Stirling to London service, has been brought by First Group. Does anyone know anything about this?

The directorate changes made on the 19th under the "filing history" tab would also suggest FirstGroup take over.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The monopoly position doesn’t arise on the WCML because FG just run Avanti on behalf of Government these days - the key competitive decisions will be made by DfT and handed down to the Avanti management to implement.

The two FG directors named on the Companies House filing do not play any part in Avanti.

If Avanti had still been a franchise, the monopoly position would have been different and the CMA would not have been happy.

 

[Wymondham]

The monopoly position doesn’t arise on the WCML because FG just run Avanti on behalf of Government these days - the key competitive decisions will be made by DfT and handed down to the Avanti management to implement.

The two FG directors named on the Companies House filing do not play any part in Avanti.

If Avanti had still been a franchise, the monopoly position would have been different and the CMA would not have been happy.

It does however create quite a concerning conflict of interest in that First will be running Avanti for the DfT under full nationalisation kicks in, whilst simultaneously setting up a competitor Open Access service who will start running not long after Avanti is handed over to OLR/GBR.

 

[Moonshot]

It does however create quite a concerning conflict of interest in that First will be running Avanti for the DfT under full nationalisation kicks in, whilst simultaneously setting up a competitor Open Access service who will start running not long after Avanti is handed over to OLR/GBR.

Not sure why it's concerning.....it seems to me as if open access is the way to go for long distance travel.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would agree with this, I make very few long distance trips within the UK now as I simply am sick of high fairs and low reliability and quality for long distance travel. But when I do make such trips, my money is far more likely to be spent with an Open Access operator and as more of them appear this spend will only become higher. Assuming of course their service is better value for money and particularly in my case. Better quality than the franchised or going forward nationalised option. I can't help but wonder if part of this purchase is connected to possible negotiations on rolling stock for other first group Open Access operations. But this is for another thread in the speculative department which I will will maybe get around to starting at a later stage

 

[ScottGallagher]

What's to stop the government doing away with open access as well by just not renewing the permits as they expire?

 

[popeter45]

looks like the GWML plan is unaffected by the looks of it?

 

[Chester1]

What's to stop the government doing away with open access as well by just not renewing the permits as they expire?

It would just require legislation but retaining open access operators is Labour Party policy. The rationale appears to be that a little bit of competition for GBR will be good for passengers. A national operator with open access operators is the norm in Europe.

 

[Russel]

Some of us are also old enough to remember when Virgin operated two out of the three direct routes between London and Birmingham and both of those served New Street.

2 Out of 3? West coast and what else?

All I can think of is the infrequent VXC South coast to the North via Kensington Olympia... If that counts!

 

[alistairlees]

If true, won't this mean First competing with...themself? Over the West Coast

FirstGroup doesn't run Avanti, GWR or SWR. The DfT does, and has done (with increasing levels of control) since March 2020. FirstGroup is just the name on the door.

 

[12LDA28C]

2 Out of 3? West coast and what else?

All I can think of is the infrequent VXC South coast to the North via Kensington Olympia... If that counts!

Virgin CrossCountry ran several direct trains per day between London Paddington and Birmingham New Street and vice versa.

 

[renegademaster]

Not sure why it's concerning.....it seems to me as if open access is the way to go for long distance travel.

First would be incentivised to run Avanti poorly to get people onto open acceses

 

[Haywain]

And possibly Virgin back into the mix too.

Why on earth would they bring Virgin into the mix?

First would be incentivised to run Avanti poorly

Some might say that they manage to do that without any incentive being available!

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

What's to stop the government doing away with open access as well by just not renewing the permits as they expire?

Lots of the regulations around this came in via the EU. Since Brexit, it is possible to create new legislation, but, especially for the Labour party, is politically difficult and could potentially be challenged in court by potential operators as an unlawful , anti competitive state monopoly.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Why on earth would they bring Virgin into the mix?

First would probably rather they didn't, but they've put in an application for the South WCML, just as First have with Lumo.

Virgin Group explores the return of Virgin Trains as an Open Access operator

This week's Sunday Times carries an interview with the CEO of Virgin Group Josh Bayliss who says Virgin is looking to return to the UK railways as an Open Access operator: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/why-virgin-is-going-back-into-trains-by-bransons-right-hand-man-kvjl60c3b The finer...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[D365]

FirstGroup doesn't run Avanti, GWR or SWR. The DfT does, and has done (with increasing levels of control) since March 2020. FirstGroup is just the name on the door.

Does DfT employ the staff?

 

[Haywain]

Does DfT employ the staff?

No, Avanti does. But it is a management contract which involves no revenue risk.

 

[alistairlees]

Does DfT employ the staff?

Does Avanti make any decisions?