Services to Northampton

[A S Leib]

If you do that, the train to Northampton just catches it up anyway and an Avanti catches it going the other way.

Realistically, how many Northampton – Birmingham services would there be even if Coventry – New Street were four-tracked and HS2 were completed? Assuming two tracks were used for stopping services, there'd still probably be 2 Avanti tph (for Watford / MK – Birmingham and Coventry / Rugby – London), 2 CrossCountry tph and the TfW Rail service using the New Street – International 'fast' lines, plus the issue of platform space at New Street itself.

 

[Jimini]

I remember waaay back when (late '90s?) when Northampton had a Euston > Watford > MK > Northampton > Rugby > Coventry > Birmingham International > Birmingham New Street calling pattern and vice versa (with no long wait at Northampton) that seemed to keep everyone happy.

Also the hourly(?) Rugby > Northampton > MK > Watford > Kensington Olympia > Clapham Junction > East Croydon > Gatwick Airport Connex services.

There also used to be the occasional non-stop Virgin service Euston > Northampton and thence to stations up north, but they were rare.

Things were quieter then, granted, but it did seem better than today's offering.

However, to counter that and as per several posts above, there was a portion of east Northampton commuters (my father included) who would drive to Wellingborough and catch a non-stop Midland Mainline service, as the comfort and speed of those services was superior (you could reserve a seat on those services and indeed get a free hot drink in standard, back in the late '90s / early '00s).

 

[Merle Haggard]

Could local services be extended from Birmingham International to Coventry? If that is possible then the Northampton services would not need to call at the intermediate stations between Coventry and Birmingham International.

Might be worth pointing out that the increase in services between Northampton& Birmingham from 1 mph to 2 was echeived by extending former Coventry terminators (from the North-West, obviously) to Northampton to then connect with trains onward to and from Euston. Both services have the same stopping pattern.

I am interested in the reasons for Canley and Tile Hill being so popular. Perhaps it's because car parking at those stations is free, unlike Coventry; and Coventry has barriers. I wonder whether the stops at those two stations actually generate the extra revenue (including car parking) that their usage suggests. I used to wait for a lift in the morning peak at Hampton-in-A often sheltering in the booking office. Very very few people either used the machine or the ticket office - until New Street had barriers, when customer numbers suddenly increased. Another reason to wonder whether all this stops create that much revenue.

 

[778]

Might be worth pointing out that the increase in services between Northampton& Birmingham from 1 mph to 2 was echeived by extending former Coventry terminators (from the North-West, obviously) to Northampton to then connect with trains onward to and from Euston. Both services have the same stopping pattern.

I am interested in the reasons for Canley and Tile Hill being so popular. Perhaps it's because car parking at those stations is free, unlike Coventry; and Coventry has barriers. I wonder whether the stops at those two stations actually generate the extra revenue (including car parking) that their usage suggests. I used to wait for a lift in the morning peak at Hampton-in-A often sheltering in the booking office. Very very few people either used the machine or the ticket office - until New Street had barriers, when customer numbers suddenly increased. Another reason to wonder whether all this stops create that much revenue.

I think there were 3tph between Northampton and Birmingham before covid?

 

[Merle Haggard]

I think there were 3tph between Northampton and Birmingham before covid?

I'm not sure, but I don't think so. There certainly was a long gap in the Up evening peak service caused by the 16.00 ish departure from New Street terminating at Coventry and another starting from Northampton in the continuing times. The reason was to provide paths for freight from Rugby to Daventry.

 

[778]

I'm not sure, but I don't think so. There certainly was a long gap in the Up evening peak service caused by the 16.00 ish departure from New Street terminating at Coventry and another starting from Northampton in the continuing times. The reason was to provide paths for freight from Rugby to Daventry.

I had a look on timetable world at an old timetable from 1981 and the journey time between Hemel Hempstead and Birmingham (via Northampton) was only 2 hours, and that was with trains with a max speed of 75 mph. The same journey today is over 30 minutes longer.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I had a look on timetable world at an old timetable from 1981 and the journey time between Hemel Hempstead and Birmingham (via Northampton) was only 2 hours, and that was with trains with a max speed of 75 mph. The same journey today is over 30 minutes longer.

If you look at Real Time Trains schedules together with mileages you will see that the 125 mph (or even 110 m.p.h) railway is an illusion South of Rugby. This applies to both Avanti and LNwR. As I've already mentioned, it's about 50 mph start to stop between stations on the New Line. When the 350/2s were still 100 max they could keep time on the '110' schedules.

When the line was electrified there was a big increase in speed, but this was in comparison with the very padded timetable to cope with the very disruptive electrification work*. The real L.N.W.R. managed Euston to New Street in two hours over a hundred years ago, and with long trains and obviously a steam loco on the front!

* There was mention in Trains Illustrated of an up train around 1963 that encountered no engineering slacks and waited time at Watford - for 30 minutes.

 

[A S Leib]

the journey time between Hemel Hempstead and Birmingham (via Northampton) was only 2 hours, and that was with trains with a max speed of 75 mph. The same journey today is over 30 minutes longer.

The 06:06 does it in 2:08, including a 16 minute wait at Northampton and calling at every intermediate station except Lea Hall, Stechford and Adderley Park, and I'd guess services on the most popular flows then were far less frequent.

 

[Merle Haggard]

The 06:06 does it in 2:08, including a 16 minute wait at Northampton and calling at every intermediate station except Lea Hall, Stechford and Adderley Park, and I'd guess services on the most popular flows then were far less frequent.In

in the may 1968 - may 1969 timetable (i.e. when the newly relaid line was still in its youth) the nn.35 from Hemel H. arrived New Street at nn+2.25, i.e. 1 hour 50 minutes. It did not call at Berko', Tring or Cheddington but was every station thereafter. (i.e. including Lea all, Stechford and Adderley Park.). Allowed 1 minute at Northampton, so the all day service was 1 minute quicker with the same number of stops than the net time today.
Progress isn't always forwards...

 

[Bletchleyite]

in the may 1968 - may 1969 timetable (i.e. when the newly relaid line was still in its youth) the nn.35 from Hemel H. arrived New Street at nn+2.25, i.e. 1 hour 50 minutes. It did not call at Berko', Tring or Cheddington but was every station thereafter. (i.e. including Lea all, Stechford and Adderley Park.). Allowed 1 minute at Northampton, so the all day service was 1 minute quicker with the same number of stops than the net time today.
Progress isn't always forwards...

I'd say it is. The current south WCML timetable is a very well designed thing indeed given the demands (though it would be nice if the infrastructure managed a day or two without falling over).

 

[The Planner]

Realistically, how many Northampton – Birmingham services would there be even if Coventry – New Street were four-tracked and HS2 were completed? Assuming two tracks were used for stopping services, there'd still probably be 2 Avanti tph (for Watford / MK – Birmingham and Coventry / Rugby – London), 2 CrossCountry tph and the TfW Rail service using the New Street – International 'fast' lines, plus the issue of platform space at New Street itself.

Cov to New St isn't ever going to be 4 tracked as you point out, what are you going to do at either end? All of what you said here fits on 2.

 

[Eloise]

I think there were 3tph between Northampton and Birmingham before covid?

Yes there were. Not great performers as they went through to exotic locations such as Rugeley via Walsall and Liverpool. So poor that station calls were removed at Long Buckby to help with performance. During the pandemic the service was split at Northampton and from memory created a -1 connection into some services arriving into Northampton and the Birmingham departure. If the former arrived into Platform 1 you could get lucky with an early arrival.

Tile Hill was certainly popular back when Westwood was open! Marston Green got the calls too, knew a few who did Marston Green - MK commute, rather them than me.

The timetable does what it does as @Bletchleyite states. Though I'd add having enough crew on some days to the "it would be nice..." line.

I'm going back to the late 90s but then between New Street and Cov you had 2tph all stations with 323s, 2tph New Street - Int - Coventry - Rugby and stations to Euston via Northampton with 321s, 2 InterCitys, 1 x XC to Cov and Leamington and the occasional XC terminating at Int and the loco doing a run round. The 321 was always the quickest New Street - Int.

 

[Kite159]

Yes there were. Not great performers as they went through to exotic locations such as Rugeley via Walsall and Liverpool. So poor that station calls were removed at Long Buckby to help with performance. During the pandemic the service was split at Northampton and from memory created a -1 connection into some services arriving into Northampton and the Birmingham departure. If the former arrived into Platform 1 you could get lucky with an early arrival.

Tile Hill was certainly popular back when Westwood was open! Marston Green got the calls too, knew a few who did Marston Green - MK commute, rather them than me.

The timetable does what it does as @Bletchleyite states. Though I'd add having enough crew on some days to the "it would be nice..." line.

I'm going back to the late 90s but then between New Street and Cov you had 2tph all stations with 323s, 2tph New Street - Int - Coventry - Rugby and stations to Euston via Northampton with 321s, 2 InterCitys, 1 x XC to Cov and Leamington and the occasional XC terminating at Int and the loco doing a run round. The 321 was always the quickest New Street - Int.

Although prior to 2019(?) all three terminated at Birmingham New Street, used to be 2x London - Birmingham & 1x Northampton - Birmingham (which in effect was a 3rd train from London as it formed from a London - Northampton service getting looped by another LNR). One tph called at all stations between New Street & International along with a separate 323 operated shuttle which skipped one of the stations from memory

I'm pretty sure in the evenings & Sundays it dropped to being Coventry terminators for some of the services.

It was only in 2019(?) they had the bright idea of merging everything together which ended badly, getting the London to Rugeley Trent Valley via Walsall services etc

 

[Eloise]

Although prior to 2019(?) all three terminated at Birmingham New Street, used to be 2x London - Birmingham & 1x Northampton - Birmingham (which in effect was a 3rd train from London as it formed from a London - Northampton service getting looped by another LNR). One tph called at all stations between New Street & International along with a separate 323 operated shuttle which skipped one of the stations from memory

I'm pretty sure in the evenings & Sundays it dropped to being Coventry terminators.

It was only in 2019(?) they had the bright idea of merging everything together which ended badly, getting the London to Rugeley Trent Valley via Walsall services etc

Sounds about right. Never known Cov turnbacks though but never had to study the timetable there in detail.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I'd say it is. The current south WCML timetable is a very well designed thing indeed given the demands (though it would be nice if the infrastructure managed a day or two without falling over).

I was reinforcing the point made by other posters that the change from 75 mph AM10/310s to 110 mph 350s had not produced any reduction in journey time. No forward progress in journey time reduction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was reinforcing the point made by other posters that the change from 75 mph AM10/310s to 110 mph 350s had not produced any reduction in journey time. No forward progress in journey time reduction.

Yes, I get that, but overall I think we have an improvement that (primarily due to the expansion of Milton Keynes but also for other reasons) is carrying far more people and is better structured.

 

[70014IronDuke]

As someone who uses the LNWR Trent Valley service from Lichfield to Euston on a regular basis, the removal of the Northampton diversion in the mid 2010's was one of the best things LM did for the route along with making it 8 car.

Living in Lichfield, and presumably not normally wanting to visit Northampton, you would say that, wouldn't you?

I recently used the first service of the day on a Sunday and it still goes via Northampton and it reminded me of what a slow, tedious route it was.

Well, this thread is about Northampton services.

But it's is certainly one way of looking at it - but you could also be grateful that Lichfield, with the new semi-fast Trent Valley services - for the first time ever had an hourly service service to London, rather than a very occasional Virgin or BR Inter-City and an equally occasional chugging Cl 153 which might have a connection (or not) at Nuneaton and/or Stafford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Living in Lichfield, and presumably not normally wanting to visit Northampton, you would say that, wouldn't you?

Adding a Rugby change for Northampton passengers would be a nuisance for them, but far more people are going to London and the connection is 2tph so this was without any possible doubt the correct decision.

 

[Horizon22]

Also the hourly(?) Rugby > Northampton > MK > Watford > Kensington Olympia > Clapham Junction > East Croydon > Gatwick Airport Connex services.

I remember taking a Clapham Junction to Northampton train back in late 2000s, not sure when it got cancelled. It was tediously slow but quite cheap.

 

[Russel]

Living in Lichfield, and presumably not normally wanting to visit Northampton, you would say that, wouldn't you?

Looking at the bigger picture, how many passengers from any of the Trent Valley stations actually want to travel to Northampton?

For the minority that do, changing at Rugby is no hardship.

Removing Northampton, making every service 8 car and the good value fares have made LNWR's Trent Valley services a very attractive option that'll only improve even more when the 350/2's are gone.

 

[A S Leib]

Looking at the bigger picture, how many passengers from any of the Trent Valley stations actually want to travel to Northampton?

Nuneaton – Northampton's 2500 journeys per year; fewer than to Chester, half of Milton Keynes, and a fourtieth of London. It's similar at Tamworth, whilst Lichfield Trent Valley has more journeys between it and Watford Junction and Preston than it does to / from Northampton.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I've been travelling to Lichfield (City) from Northampton about once a month recently. The NRES itinerary gives via New St., presumably the quicker route.
I accept it's not a popular destination from here but I expect most travellers, if they didn't have the benefit of a free pass, would choose to drive - it's pretty much a straight line via M1 M6 M42 A38, and the rail journey is tedious because of the number of station calls - 20!

It is sophistry, though, to say that because there is (unsurprisingly) little use of a particular service when that service is poor there would be the same demand if it was improved.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

I remember taking a Clapham Junction to Northampton train back in late 2000s, not sure when it got cancelled. It was tediously slow but quite cheap.

It got removed at the end of the Sept 2001 - May 2002 Timetable. I know because I was on the last South Central Train to call Northampton, the 2206 Rugby - East Croydon on the last Sat Night.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I remember taking a Clapham Junction to Northampton train back in late 2000s, not sure when it got cancelled. It was tediously slow but quite cheap.

When this service was introduced it served Gatwick Airport, which made it a little more useful - although it I think slower than via Euston/Victoria.
At the time, it was regarded as ORCATS-raiding on the West Coast by Connex. The original intention was to get to International to make the most of that aim, and It did briefly reach Rugby. The fact that it was all-stations down the West Coast rather gave the ORCATS game away.

 

[A S Leib]

I've been travelling to Lichfield (City) from Northampton about once a month recently. The NRES itinerary gives via New St., presumably the quicker route.
I accept it's not a popular destination from here but I expect most travellers, if they didn't have the benefit of a free pass, would choose to drive - it's pretty much a straight line via M1 M6 M42 A38, and the rail journey is tedious because of the number of station calls - 20!

It is sophistry, though, to say that because there is (unsurprisingly) little use of a particular service when that service is poor there would be the same demand if it was improved.

I agree that that's unattractive, but I think it says more about how slow Lichfield – Birmingham is (double the time of Tamworth – Birmingham for effectively the same distance) than about Northampton's relative rail isolation.

 

[Horizon22]

It got removed at the end of the Sept 2001 - May 2002 Timetable. I know because I was on the last South Central Train to call Northampton, the 2206 Rugby - East Croydon on the last Sat Night.

Maybe I had to change somewhere by that point then, I only fuzzily remember the journey on a dark November night! Might have been the Southern service to MK and a change.

 

[JW4]

I agree that that's unattractive, but I think it says more about how slow Lichfield – Birmingham is (double the time of Tamworth – Birmingham for effectively the same distance) than about Northampton's relative rail isolation.

Well it says more about Lichfield City to Lichfield TV on the current timetable actually. It’s recommending rather than go to Trent Valley and then getting one to Rugby and then changing there for Northampton, you should go via New Street.

Arrivals at LTV on Cross City are at xx17 and xx47

LNR from LTV towards Rugby are at xx49

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well it says more about Lichfield City to Lichfield TV on the current timetable actually. It’s recommending rather than go to Trent Valley and then getting one to Rugby and then changing there for Northampton, you should go via New Street.

With 2tph via Birmingham and only one via the Trent, I'd recommend Birmingham anyway.

 

[JW4]

With 2tph via Birmingham and only one via the Trent, I'd recommend Birmingham anyway.

Yeah and you only have to change once going via Birmingham when going from Lichfield City

 

[6Gman]

Yes, that’s the normal ‘train enthusiast’ response but it doesn’t satisfy demand for the increasingly changing demographic and population, which has increased almost 40% between the last census and the previous one.

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You have clearly never travelled on a train from Northampton, the cattle class (2nd rate) alternative service between Euston and Birmingham is simply not good enough. No fast services , Northampton has the same service experienced at Wolverton (a suburb of Milton Keynes) and Long Buckby ( a village) I would say that isn’t good enough

So how would you suggest improving the service?

Diverting some long-distance trains thus slowing them?
Or by introducing new services (which would then need to be fitted in on an already congested WCML)?

And "cattle class" is a meaningless tabloid cliche.