CrossCountry Train Managers striking in October

[Tractor2018]

When I’ve observed managers and other contingency staff working as guards I’ve noticed that they are often dressed in casual clothing due to not having uniforms issued. If it wasn’t for a lanyard tucked into their pocket you wouldn’t know them. Neither do they perform revenue duties as they are not trained. Apart from making polite announcements they seldom engage with passengers. If guards worked trains in the same manner questions would be asked!

This. They're an absolute liability.

In a serious incident they're going to need babysitting, either by the driver or remotely by control - 2 groups of people who will already have enough on their plates in the circumstances.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

This. They're an absolute liability.

In a serious incident they're going to need babysitting, either by the driver or remotely by control - 2 groups of people who will already have enough on their plates in the circumstances.

I think that's unfair.

In my experience, 50-60% of the contingency managers are arguably more or at least as competent as a normal conductor/guard. These are driver or operational managers, controllers, training managers, instructors etc. This group is highly experienced and, uniform or not, are absolutely fine.

The other half are administrative staff who have still passed all the OPC assessments, and are still assessed as competent against the TOCs ORR safety case. However, like with any new guard, it takes time to learn the role, and build up that confidence. Any brand new guard going out solo for the first few months is likely to have a few challenging moments, especially if involved in an incident. A contingency guard with no prior background in this role will get to that point eventually too, just takes longer to gain the confidence and self belief.

At several TOCs I've worked at, most of the contingency staff have previously been drivers, shunters, conductors or safety critical dispatchers or a combination of all three.

 

[Horizon22]

When I’ve observed managers and other contingency staff working as guards I’ve noticed that they are often dressed in casual clothing due to not having uniforms issued. If it wasn’t for a lanyard tucked into their pocket you wouldn’t know them. Neither do they perform revenue duties as they are not trained. Apart from making polite announcements they seldom engage with passengers. If guards worked trains in the same manner questions would be asked!

Well it’s not their full time role - clue is in the title of “contingency”. It’s to keep the service running as a bare minimum.

However, like with any new guard, it takes time to learn the role, and build up that confidence. Any brand new guard going out solo for the first few months is likely to have a few challenging moments, especially if involved in an incident. A contingency guard with no prior background in this role will get to that point eventually too, just takes longer to gain the confidence and self belief.

Not to mention they’d do it less often that someone who’s daily role it is, so it is natural they will be less confident (not less competent).

 

[Ashley Hill]

Not to mention they’d do it less often that someone who’s daily role it is, so it is natural they will be less confident (not less competent).

Which is why mistakes are covered up?

 

[800001]

How much training do the contingent managers get to be a TM?

On LNER, a normally Train Manager takes several months to become competent, yet a contingent manager takes 1-2 weeks.

 

[KNN]

Which is why mistakes are covered up?

Quite a big accusation, what's it based on?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

How much training do the contingent managers get to be a TM?

On LNER, a normally Train Manager takes several months to become competent, yet a contingent manager takes 1-2 weeks.

All that matters is as far as the ORR and RSSB is concerned, the guard is competent according to the TOC safety case and rule book. It's wholly irrelevant what anyone else thinks - if they're signed as competent, they're competent.

Lots of ordinary guard courses are far too long and have been reduced in length, but a lot of the time is simply because dealing with unions etc makes it impractical to cut the training time to a more appropriate level, because they fear it's reducing the role of the guard. Same with route learning, the unions demand a minimum training period for each route, and in most cases, it's excessive but nobody dares challenge it. The rulebook only requires that a guard is familiar with the features of a line, not required an in-depth knowledge.

 

[Horizon22]

Which is why mistakes are covered up?

Says who?

 

[43096]

Says who?

People with an axe to grind?

 

[GoneSouth]

XC is a mess and needs to go.

To be replaced by what? We still need to travel and whoever takes over the running of the service needs to take on staff under current terms. Just pulling the contract from XC, Arriva or whoever the heck operated it these days fixes nothing.

As a passenger I accept staff morale is low, heck so is passenger morale. Overpriced, over crowded, unreliable, couldn’t give a dam about providing services like catering on 8 hour journeys etc. Flippin terrible company for both staff and customer.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Says who?

Not specific to XC, but the TSSA?

Call to investigate safety violations on strike day | TSSA

Rail union TSSA is demanding an investigation into rail safety after reports of multiple trains being sent in the wrong direction and some attempting to leave stations when signals were on red during yesterday's strike.

www.tssa.org.uk

We are concerned that inexperienced people were brought in to cover signalling duties during lawful industrial action yesterday and it seems that as a consequence of that, a high number of wrong routes occurred. This obviously impacts services through incurring delays, but the potential safety impacts are huge.

Additionally, we have had reports of managers trying to dispatch a train against a red signal, with two managers reportedly tested for alcohol and drugs as a result.
.

 

[Russel]

When I’ve observed managers and other contingency staff working as guards I’ve noticed that they are often dressed in casual clothing due to not having uniforms issued. If it wasn’t for a lanyard tucked into their pocket you wouldn’t know them. Neither do they perform revenue duties as they are not trained. Apart from making polite announcements they seldom engage with passengers. If guards worked trains in the same manner questions would be asked!

Apart from the uniform, that isn't really much different to how many guards do work trains...

Before I get jumped on, I'm a regular XC passenger, I see first hand how frequently they pass through the train or do any sort of revenue protection work.

 

[KNN]

Not specific to XC, but the TSSA?

Call to investigate safety violations on strike day | TSSA

Rail union TSSA is demanding an investigation into rail safety after reports of multiple trains being sent in the wrong direction and some attempting to leave stations when signals were on red during yesterday's strike.

www.tssa.org.uk

That's got nothing to do with a contingency TMs though, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't all those relief signallers former signallers now in managerial positions?

 

[Starmill]

Not sure, I know it was attempted to be 'worked into' our (WMT) CRI around 2018 but was objected to and never formally used.

I'd have to check the wording but ours is basically along the lines of contingency train crew may only work during industrial action for the relevent union. Managers may only work trains to ensure their competency and to manage competency of others.

Thank you - sounds like the outline of an agreement is there and could be applied, if there's a mature negotiation to be had.

Let's just hope that there's no disruptive industrial action on the same sort of basis as elsewhere.

I believe the straw that has broken the camel's back is the significant extra payment made to managers undertaking this work, which isn't available to the actual train crews for working overtime themselves, despite for example most in that position not having revenue training so not covering all elements of the job role.

Some managers don't help matters by trundling around boasting about how much money they're making out of it in front of the train crew.

There's also the selection issue - people work hard to get a responsible job as a train guard. I know of more than a few cases in the industry where people have failed selection repeatedly for an actual senior conductor/train manager position, gone for jobs elsewhere in the business and then provided they pass the more basic requirements to be a contingency guard and are happy to work during strikes (they obviously do the psychometrics but not the full ordeal of the group exercise and all that stuff) they're ushered into guarding trains with welcome arms.

"Contingency" train crews are in broad terms never going to be popular amongst their regular colleagues (in general terms, rather than as individuals) and given Cross Country's crews are on the militant side it's not that hard to see why they're kicking off, whether you think it's worthwhile or not.

Personally it's not something I feel strongly about - but I know for a fact within my own TOC some managers have been guilty of rubbing people up (to quote one "keep on striking, I support you entirely - you're paying for my next cruise!").

This sort of thing is really disappointing to hear about. There do seem to be some depots which just can't get decent managers. Then again when you're only paid a pittance above the roles you're line managing you're creating a real vacuum of the best candidates. Generally the actual best candidates don't want big responsibilities without a commensurate pay differential, so you just get whoever.

 

[father_jack]

Says who?

Quite a big accusation, what's it based on?

Lots of known occurrences on strike days, all collated by the unions and sent to RSSB.

That's got nothing to do with a contingency TMs though, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't all those relief signallers former signallers now in managerial positions?

As a signaller it fails safe almost all the time and you just end up blocking up the place....

 

[Tetchytyke]

That's got nothing to do with a contingency TMs though, correct me if I'm wrong but weren't all those relief signallers former signallers now in managerial positions?

In that case, yes, but it's the same principle.

I seem to recall the RMT making similar allegations at Scotrail a few years ago (not the current/recent dispute), but can't find the links to it now.

 

[CC 72100]

Not specific to XC, but the TSSA?

Call to investigate safety violations on strike day | TSSA

Rail union TSSA is demanding an investigation into rail safety after reports of multiple trains being sent in the wrong direction and some attempting to leave stations when signals were on red during yesterday's strike.

www.tssa.org.uk

All of which also happen on a normal day.

That screenshot is after a filter is applied to CCIL. Think about it. It's a control log for the entire industry and all sorts of events. What is the chance of all of these incidents taking place at the same time as eachother?

A filter has clearly been applied to show only Safety of the Line incidents (for a very wide geographical area); applying the same filter on a normal day would give the same results.

 

[KNN]

Lots of known occurrences on strike days, all collated by the unions and sent to RSSB.


As a signaller it fails safe almost all the time and you just end up blocking up the place....

If this is true then why hasn't there been more heat from the RMT and members about it?

My experience hasn't been this at all. Some, yes, lots, no. But there are always some.

 

[Horizon22]

Not specific to XC, but the TSSA?

Call to investigate safety violations on strike day | TSSA

Rail union TSSA is demanding an investigation into rail safety after reports of multiple trains being sent in the wrong direction and some attempting to leave stations when signals were on red during yesterday's strike.

www.tssa.org.uk

Contingency (I say that but obviously fully qualified) signallers during the NR signaller strikes for the 0700-1900 service, nothing to do with this dispute. Also it's arguable that it would cause a "significant safety incident", more significant inconvenience by being routed to a different destination (even though all drivers look to have challenged the route).

Such incidents also happen every day with signallers across the country, although probably to a lesser degree.

Lots of known occurrences on strike days, all collated by the unions and sent to RSSB.


As a signaller it fails safe almost all the time and you just end up blocking up the place....

And if there was such a serious concern, the RSSB or the ORR would have stamped down on contingency staff. They have not done that.

There are two arguments here - the first is a safety one which may have a tiny amount of merit. The second is a more political / IR one about managers taking up roles which should be for substantive staff on an increasingly regular basis. That has more merit.

Most crew managers are paid little more (and often less) than the people they manager and often are overworked with assessments, incident management & reviews as well as other administrative tasks. I imagine contingency roles often fall within "...and any other tasks as deemed required by the XXX Director" which are common in managerial contracts.

 

[rg177]

This. They're an absolute liability.

In a serious incident they're going to need babysitting, either by the driver or remotely by control - 2 groups of people who will already have enough on their plates in the circumstances.

I recall seeing some questionable behaviour when Northern seemed to be in a perpetual state of strike back in 2018/2019.

The most insane was a contingency guard locking up a train far too quickly on arrival at a terminus and not checking that they still actually had passengers on. Either that, or one who nearly sent themselves flying onto the platform as they were leaning on the back cab door as they unlocked it to do the doors.

I'm not saying this was the representative standard, but it didn't give me much faith as a passenger at the time!

 

[Tractor2018]

I think that's unfair.

I respect your opinion. It just seems your experiences with these staff differ from mine.

The most insane was a contingency guard locking up a train far too quickly on arrival at a terminus and not checking that they still actually had passengers on. Either that, or one who nearly sent themselves flying onto the platform as they were leaning on the back cab door as they unlocked it to do the doors.

It shouldn't be funny, but these did raise a smile with me.

In my experience in these circumstances, I get belled away against a red, with astonishing frequency! The simplest of things, core to the job........with that in mind, can I place my faith in them in a challenging scenario, against a guard I know I can trust to get in with things.

 

[fishwomp]

[..]

- Using managers routinely to cover their own greed-caused resource shortages is, in my opinion a very different thing. Paying them an extra £650 fires the missile.

Railways running on overtime is the problem that won't go away.

At one time, overtime was needed to make ends meet, but nowadays salaries for many (but not all) roles are decent - but nonetheless, people like overtime because it's good extra money and everyone likes extra. It's clear there's an expectation, or feeling of entitlement - being entitled to overtime when things are wrong - still seeing it as part of the expected take-home, which leads to living to the standard that requires it.

If the railways had the right number of staff, no-one would get overtime: would that be as solution that worked for members? Everyone would get less.

If this were a hospital, or a GP practice, the ambulance service, or many professional industries - you'd end up hiring in agency staff or companies to do this - and paying their agency the '£650' instead, and then the agency staff would get half of that!

Imagine if, say, XC cancelled 25% of its services (inc 100% of Reading-Newcastle). Oh, they have.. Whilst that was going on, would anyone mind if they hired the Midland Pullman HST and its crew (a wet lease as airline industry calls it)? I bet that'd cost more than £650 a turn though! The passengers would like it, but I'm not sure what the established staff would say..

 

[Bald Rick]

So how many trains are typically worked by managers (and why?)

AIUI It varies daily, sometimes none /very few, sometimes perhaps a dozen or more.

 

[12LDA28C]

AIUI It varies daily, sometimes none /very few, sometimes perhaps a dozen or more.

So this raises the question I posted yesterday but nobody seemed able to answer: If the strike goes ahead, will XC plan to run a reduced timetable which they can confidently resource with 'contingency' guards or will we see many ad-hoc cancellations on the day? What percentage of XC services can we expect to operate? That's what passengers will want to know.

 

[45107]

All of which also happen on a normal day.

That screenshot is after a filter is applied to CCIL. Think about it. It's a control log for the entire industry and all sorts of events. What is the chance of all of these incidents taking place at the same time as eachother?

A filter has clearly been applied to show only Safety of the Line incidents (for a very wide geographical area); applying the same filter on a normal day would give the same results.

Indeed it will. My understanding is that there is a ‘3 strikes and out rule’ applied to signallers for operational irregularities.
What criteria is applied to contingency staff covering the posts during industrial action ?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

So this raises the question I posted yesterday but nobody seemed able to answer: If the strike goes ahead, will XC plan to run a reduced timetable which they can confidently resource with 'contingency' guards or will we see many ad-hoc cancellations on the day? What percentage of XC services can we expect to operate? That's what passengers will want to know.

It isn't that simple. It will depend on how many London Overground and Chiltern managers are also made available/ trained, and any Arriva HQ corporate staff.

They will have a shadow contingency set of rosters for strike action by conductors / Train Managers, which will be a limited service spread over around 11 or 12 hours of a typical day. The core Bristol-Birmingham-Derby-Leeds route will be likely be prioritised. Manchester less so as there are plenty of alternative routes from Birmingham.

 

[12LDA28C]

It isn't that simple. It will depend on how many London Overground and Chiltern managers are also made available/ trained, and any Arriva HQ corporate staff.

They will have a shadow contingency set of rosters for strike action by conductors / Train Managers, which will be a limited service spread over around 11 or 12 hours of a typical day. The core Bristol-Birmingham-Derby-Leeds route will be likely be prioritised. Manchester less so as there are plenty of alternative routes from Birmingham.

What are you on about? I can absolutely guarantee that no other TOCs managers will be carrying out Guard duties on XC trains. They won't have been trained on the traction or routes for a start.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

What are you on about? I can absolutely guarantee that no other TOCs managers will be carrying out Guard duties on XC trains. They won't have been trained on the traction or routes for a start.

That must be a fairly recent development as it's fairly common elsewhere, and Arriva have also done so previously, with training taking place at unusual locations.

 

[KNN]

That must be a fairly recent development as it's fairly common elsewhere, and Arriva have also done so previously, with training taking place at unusual locations.

Are you sure that's the guard role? You have to do a route exam don't you? Takes months usually.

 

[12LDA28C]

Are you sure that's the guard role? You have to do a route exam don't you? Takes months usually.

Contingency guards won't receive that level of training. Two or three weeks at most I suspect.