Class 800 overshot Chippenham station (29/09)

[Mark Carter]

I decided to take a trip Bristol TM to Oxford on the new Saturday only direct service yesterday 28.09 on the 10.18 departure with 800008. The train was well loaded, but no onboard computers working for seat reservations or carriage letters.

As we approached Chippenham I thought we were going a bit fast and then there was heavy braking and the train sailed straight though, stopping 400m or so beyond the platform.

After a few minutes pause the Conductor went to the rear of the train, presumably to the rear cab, and then we were reversed back into the station. It was announced that there was a technical issue and after 10 mins or so we went on our way to Oxford where luckily we did stop.

Any ideas what could have happened, or was it just driver error? It seems concerning to me that if there is a brake fault, the train was allowed to continue.

 

[Welly]

Driver most likely forgot the stop.

 

[JonathanH]

Driver most likely forgot the stop.

Not necessarily, and it isn't appropriate to allege that without evidence. It could also be poor rail conditions, particularly given the train continued in service.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I’d be very surprised if it was as simple as ‘forgetting’, given every GWR service in the Up direction is currently booked to call.

 

[Flying Snail]

If the weather is anything like here it's probably the first leaf fall of the year.

 

[357]

The conductor wouldn't have driven the train, the driver would have changed ends and driven back, then changed ends again to continue.

The train wouldn't have continued in service if it was a brake fault.

Most likely low adhesion. Both yesterday and today I've experienced very poor rails where I've struggled to get above 40mph and then struggled to stop again.

 

[AndrewE]

Not necessarily, and it isn't appropriate to allege that without evidence. It could also be poor rail conditions, particularly given the train continued in service.

Which is a reflex response and ignores the fact that drivers are human (even though some pretend that they are not...) Poor rail conditions would probably have caused wheelflats and would have been noticed by the OP

If the weather is anything like here it's probably the first leaf fall of the year.

or not... "Heavy braking" - to quote OP - isn't compatible with poor adhesion!

I remember an autumn commuting journey (1975 or 76) in a class 304 unit where it sailed through Goostrey station... It was braking normally until everything suddenly went very quiet and it clearly ceased to decelerate and so we slid through the station at speed.
We set back for the station call and then set off again... with bang bang bang bang coming from all the wheelsets!

 

[Spartacus]

My first clue was the non-functioning displays, turns out driver was preoccupied with sorting that and the non-functioning FMS in general and misjudged the braking.

 

[Mark Carter]

Not necessarily, and it isn't appropriate to allege that without evidence. It could also be poor rail conditions, particularly given the train continued in service.

I felt the braking was late and very hard. Items were sliding off tables. Having been on that route several times the train certainly entered the station much faster than I ever remembered. Weather was bright dry and sunny. I was under the impression that the conductor went to the rear cab to watch out for the driver to reverse ?

 

[skyhigh]

Poor rail conditions would probably have caused wheelflats and would have been noticed by the OP

Unlikely with modern WSP systems these days. It's unusual to get a complete slide.

I was under the impression that the conductor went to the rear cab to watch out for the driver to reverse ?

That is a a complete and utter no-no and would result in sacking for the driver.

 

[AndrewE]

Unlikely with modern WSP systems these days. It's unusual to get a complete slide.

yet I'm surprised how often we do hear wheelflats banging past though - even on passsenger stock!

 

[skyhigh]

yet I'm surprised how often we do hear wheelflats banging past though - even on passsenger stock!

Depends what the stock is. As I said, "modern". 158s and I presume Turbos etc have a fairly basic system. I would expect 80x as involved here to have a modern system and would be very surprised if passengers noticed flats after a single slide on wheelsets that were previously in good condition.

 

[Horizon22]

After a few minutes pause the Conductor went to the rear of the train, presumably to the rear cab and then we were reversed back into the station.

Are you sure it wasn’t the driver you actually saw going to the rear of the train to “reverse” back?

Lucky it was a 5-car; I’d presume if this had happened with a 10-car it would either be a “forward only” policy or line blocks would be involved.

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Poor rail conditions would probably have caused wheelflats and would have been noticed by the OP

That’s quite a leap - wheel flats are often more sustained and any episode of poor rail adhesion is not guarantee to cause wheel flats. Not to mention it would be highly dependent on where the OP was sitting and them actually being aware of what they should be listening out for.

 

[357]

Poor rail conditions would probably have caused wheelflats and would have been noticed by the OP

Negative. WSP on modern units is very good. It will let you overshoot without locking the wheels

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2024 ==

or not... "Heavy braking" - to quote OP - isn't compatible with poor adhesion!

Yes it is. It's common for the brakes to feel like they are doing absolutely nothing and then suddenly "bite".

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I was under the impression that the conductor went to the rear cab to watch out for the driver to reverse ?

No.

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Weather was bright dry and sunny.

And can be very deceiving.

 

[Llanigraham]

The conductor wouldn't have driven the train, the driver would have changed ends and driven back, then changed ends again to continue.

The train wouldn't have continued in service if it was a brake fault.

Most likely low adhesion. Both yesterday and today I've experienced very poor rails where I've struggled to get above 40mph and then struggled to stop again.

If the distancce of the over-run was less than 400mtrs I seem to remember the driver doesn't need to change ends but can set-back with the Guard acting as his eyes, and is in constant communication with him.

 

[12LDA28C]

or not... "Heavy braking" - to quote OP - isn't compatible with poor adhesion!

Initially no, however the driver may have applied the brake in the normal place in the normal 'step' but if poor railhead adhesion was encountered then the brake would then be placed at least in full service if not emergency in an attempt to stop at the station.

 

[800301]

My first clue was the non-functioning displays, turns out driver was preoccupied with sorting that and the non-functioning FMS in general and misjudged the braking.

If the displays are blank the head code just need to be re entered which can only be done at a stand and not on the move

 

[class ep-09]

Unlikely with modern WSP systems these days. It's unusual to get a complete slide.

That is a a complete and utter no-no and would result in sacking for the driver.

You would like to know that reversing is allowed by the Rulebook under certain circumstances .
Even if it was not one of them, unlikely driver would be sacked .
Meeting ( perhaps more than one ) with managers(s) without tea and biscuits , yes , but sacking very unlikely .

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If the displays are blank the head code just need to be re entered which can only be done at a stand and not on the move

And it can be done by TM or driver.

 

[Towers]

My first clue was the non-functioning displays, turns out driver was preoccupied with sorting that and the non-functioning FMS in general and misjudged the braking.

Very highly unlikely that the driver would choose the approach to a station stop as the ideal moment to play with the TMS. If it wasn’t functioning in a manner which affected the driver, that would have been clearly apparent well before the train departed its origin, and presumably there would have been a station stop at Bath during which any attempts at rectifying things would have been made.

There are assorted reasons for the screens to be blank, the primary one has no impact on the driver at all and can be easily resolved by the guard. Seems an unlikely reason.

 

[357]

If the distancce of the over-run was less than 400mtrs I seem to remember the driver doesn't need to change ends but can set-back with the Guard acting as his eyes, and is in constant communication with him.

Not anywhere I've ever driven. I think you're mistaking the rule regarding leaving lights as they are (so driving with red on the front and white on the back into the station) with this.

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You would like to know that reversing is allowed by the Rulebook under certain circumstances .
Even if it was not one of them, unlikely driver would be sacked .
Meeting ( perhaps more than one ) with managers(s) without tea and biscuits , yes , but sacking very unlikely .

One of my former employers would have absolutely tried to sack a driver for this.

 

[driver9000]

If the distancce of the over-run was less than 400mtrs I seem to remember the driver doesn't need to change ends but can set-back with the Guard acting as his eyes, and is in constant communication with him.

Certainly not in a multiple unit at least.

 

[skyhigh]

You would like to know that reversing is allowed by the Rulebook under certain circumstances .

Thank you, but the discussion here is about a station overrun.

Even if it was not one of them, unlikely driver would be sacked .
Meeting ( perhaps more than one ) with managers(s) without tea and biscuits , yes , but sacking very unlikely .

Every place I've worked would have tried to sack for that. Reversing a passenger service, into a complex/multiplatform station, using the guard as a lookout? Slam dunk gross misconduct.

 

[357]

You would like to know that reversing is allowed by the Rulebook under certain circumstances .

Yes and this is not one of those circumstances.

I should know because I have reversed a train before for a considerable distance, in one of those permitted circumstances.

 

[TurboMan]

Thank you, but the discussion here is about a station overrun.

Every place I've worked would have tried to sack for that. Reversing a passenger service, into a complex/multiplatform station, using the guard as a lookout? Slam dunk gross misconduct.

A propelling movement with a loco and coaches following a station overrun counts as 'reversing' I suppose. See TW1 sec 26.

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Very highly unlikely that the driver would choose the approach to a station stop as the ideal moment to play with the TMS.

That is what happened in this incident though.

 

[bleeder4]

I had this happen to me a few years ago on an LNER Azuma from Edinburgh. We were due to stop at Alnmouth but sailed right through it and then braked suddenly a few hundred yards past the station. Conductor comes on tannoy saying driver had forgotten to stop and was waiting for authorisation from Control to set back. A few minutes later I see the driver walk past my window outside heading to the back of train. He got into the rear cab and then drove a few hundred yards wrong line back into the station.

Incidentally, with regards to this discussion about reversing (which I know is slightly OT) I was on a steam charter on Friday which got signalled into a platform at Bristol Temple Meads that the locos were too wide for. The mistake was noticed in time and we stopped suddenly, but the train was blocking the points in the station throat. So the two locos at the front had to propel the train backwards, with all 500 passengers on it, until we had cleared the points and could get signalled into a suitable platform.

 

[londonboi]

Unlikely with modern WSP systems these days. It's unusual to get a complete slide.

That is a a complete and utter no-no and would result in sacking for the driver.

Incorrect up to a certain distance the driver is authorised under authority to put the train into reverse with the tm/guard in the rear with constant communication to each other and bring the train back into the platform. This is know as setting back which is different to a wrong direction move.

 

[12LDA28C]

If the distancce of the over-run was less than 400mtrs I seem to remember the driver doesn't need to change ends but can set-back with the Guard acting as his eyes, and is in constant communication with him.

In a multiple unit the driver is required to change ends. You're thinking of the rule regarding the maximum distance a driver may be permitted by the signaller to return to the platform after over-running a station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2024 ==

I had this happen to me a few years ago on an LNER Azuma from Edinburgh. We were due to stop at Alnmouth but sailed right through it and then braked suddenly a few hundred yards past the station. Conductor comes on tannoy saying driver had forgotten to stop and was waiting for authorisation from Control to set back. A few minutes later I see the driver walk past my window outside heading to the back of train. He got into the rear cab and then drove a few hundred yards wrong line back into the station.

That is permitted in the rule book, a maximum distance of 400m.

 

[RGM654]

I had this happen to me a few years ago on an LNER Azuma from Edinburgh. We were due to stop at Alnmouth but sailed right through it and then braked suddenly a few hundred yards past the station. Conductor comes on tannoy saying driver had forgotten to stop and was waiting for authorisation from Control to set back. A few minutes later I see the driver walk past my window outside heading to the back of train. He got into the rear cab and then drove a few hundred yards wrong line back into the station.

Incidentally, with regards to this discussion about reversing (which I know is slightly OT) I was on a steam charter on Friday which got signalled into a platform at Bristol Temple Meads that the locos were too wide for. The mistake was noticed in time and we stopped suddenly, but the train was blocking the points in the station throat. So the two locos at the front had to propel the train backwards, with all 500 passengers on it, until we had cleared the points and could get signalled into a suitable platform.

I don't know whether that 500 already on board is correct, but many were waiting at Temple Meads to join the train. (I was one of them.) I presume in that situation setting back (with an appropriate person keeping a lookout) was legitimate in the absence of a reasonable alternative. As it happened, the diesels that had brought the train from Birmingham and handed over to steam at Bristol East Depot could possibly have been sent for to couple to the back end, but that would have taken time and probably delayed several other trains.

 

[Towers]

A propelling movement with a loco and coaches following a station overrun counts as 'reversing' I suppose. See TW1 sec 26.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2024 ==


That is what happened in this incident though.

Well, I can only bow to your (presumably reliable!) insider knowledge, assuming that’s come from somewhere within GWR? Hope all concerned are well!

 

[VP185]

If you have another available leading cab then you must change ends in order to return to a station you’ve overshot.
Failure to do so will lead to a disciplinary if not dismissal.