Parkway stations on HS2?

[Mgameing123]

Thing is that the WCML is one of the few routes where driving all the way (if you're willing to drive to the station) struggles to match the journey time because the train averages over 100mph throughout, something you can't do legally by car (and increasingly won't get away with even illegally, with cameras everywhere). With HS2 this will be even more pronounced.

I do see the point about WFJ though, and indeed think not having an M25 Parkway on HS2 was a serious error (because Birmingham is even further away than MKC). Old Oak is too far into London for people to be willing to drive there, and it's far from clear that it'll have significant amounts of parking anyway.

I don't think an M25 Parkway station is a good idea for journey times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Should HS2 have had an M25 Parkway, taking the role of Watford Junction/MKC for people in north London, and providing competition with Luton Airport?

It seems it will in Manchester in the form of the airport station, so why was this omitted?

 

[A0]

I don't think an M25 Parkway station is a good idea for journey times.

I agree, not, when you have Old Oak and Euston.

If it had been the first stop after Euston, perhaps.

That said, I believe there is merit in having a station in the Brackley area - giving Northants some compensation for the disruption HS2 is causing, because the county isn't getting any other benefits from it on current form.

 

[SynthD]

Birmingham Interchange will serve a large area. Is it so bad if people south of Daventry-ish use existing stations? At that short range, they’re probably price conscious and go to Stanmore.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Should HS2 have had an M25 Parkway, taking the role of Watford Junction/MKC for people in north London, and providing competition with Luton Airport?

A station somewhere in the Chilterns might have headed off some of the local opposition. As far as I recall the design of HS1 from using it to Kent, the through lines are routed away from the three stations.

 

[HSTEd]

There is no scope for parkway stations on HS2 at this stage, because the line doesn't go near any population centres of note.

Who would use them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no scope for parkway stations on HS2 at this stage, because the line doesn't go near any population centres of note.

Who would use them?

The whole inside of the M25 is a population centre of note.

 

[biggerisbetter]

Isn’t London slightly different in that a ‘Parkway’ station is less effective as a lower proportion of passengers will drive to the station than elsewhere from the catchment area? As this will also be the busier part of the line stopping trains will affect more journeys than parkway stations such as at Manchester Airport?

Would a better approach to be to look at which existing classic line stations may be encouraged to serve a parkway role and have all remaining classic line services call there? Watford Junction I think should be called at by all post-HS2 West Coast Mainline services but not sure this is the most accessible by car.

 

[Mgameing123]

To be honest HS2 has omitted a lot of potential stations like at Aylesbury, Calvert and Brackley (which has no rail service) but probably for a good reason.

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Birmingham Interchange will serve a large area. Is it so bad if people south of Daventry-ish use existing stations? At that short range, they’re probably price conscious and go to Stanmore.

Birmingham Interchange should become a major bus hub when it opens. (Hopefully Birmingham has non privatized buses by then)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

Anyways now thinking of it a M25 Parkway station would have been a good station to have. Demand would be high as many people would drive there and maybe not drive long distances but it fails because people are going to drive to the station. In an area like the London Commuter Belt we should focus on getting people to take public transport over private transport if the option is there. If we were to build an M25 Parkway there would need to be good local bus connections (which we can discuss) and maybe even an orbital railway?

 

[The Planner]

But what is the catchment area in terms of Calvert or Brackley? Once you factor in generalised journey time, the classic lines could still edge it.

 

[dosxuk]

If the intention was to run a local stopping service on HS2, they would have routed it near some notable population centres.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Should HS2 have had an M25 Parkway, taking the role of Watford Junction/MKC for people in north London, and providing competition with Luton Airport?

It seems it will in Manchester in the form of the airport station, so why was this omitted?

It should have been at Hayes and Harlington for Heathrow. With interchange with the Heathrow Southern Rail Link

 

[Mgameing123]

It should have been at Hayes and Harlington for Heathrow. With interchange with the Heathrow Southern Rail Link

How much would that cost though?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Oct 2024 ==

But what is the catchment area in terms of Calvert or Brackley? Once you factor in generalised journey time, the classic lines could still edge it.

If the intention was to run a local stopping service on HS2, they would have routed it near some notable population centres.

Calvert would be able to provide a good interchange with East West Rail, Brackley would just give Brackley a decent rail service.

And no I doubt they would of changed the routing if they wanted a local stopper service because it is still a high speed line so additional stations would be lower priority.

 

[HSTEd]

The whole inside of the M25 is a population centre of note.

The place where HS2 crosses the M25 is far from ideal as a parkway though.
It's not near an existing junction and would require major and highly disruptive construction to add one.

 

[Mgameing123]

The place where HS2 crosses the M25 is far from ideal as a parkway though.
It's not near an existing junction and would require major and highly disruptive construction to add one.

Well in the world where we really wanted a M25 Parkway Station then I’m pretty sure it would be worth it.

 

[dosxuk]

The place where HS2 crosses the M25 is far from ideal as a parkway though.
It's not near an existing junction and would require major and highly disruptive construction to add one.

Like the one they built for HS2 construction?

 

[BayPaul]

Remember that the plan is (was) for HS2 south of Birmingham Interchange to be basically full, meaning that either no trains stop or all trains stop at any parkway station. A train every 3-4 minutes from a field in the chilterns to London is perhaps a tad excessive provision. Even from an M25 Parkway it would probably need to be a replacement for OOC rather than an addition.

 

[The Planner]

Calvert would be able to provide a good interchange with East West Rail,

But that goes back to my first point, by the time you travel on a train to Calvert and add in the connection time, you are going to be half way down the Chiltern line or WCML.

Brackley would just give Brackley a decent rail service.

To where people in Brackley want to go? It gives them the option of London or Birmingham.

 

[HSTEd]

Like the one they built for HS2 construction?

From what I can tell from street view and aerial photography that connection would never pass muster as a permanent junction.

 

[stuu]

Well in the world where we really wanted a M25 Parkway Station then I’m pretty sure it would be worth it.

But then you would need to leave lots of empty seats on long distance trains to serve it properly, which seems less than ideal.

 

[Mgameing123]

But then you would need to leave lots of empty seats on long distance trains to serve it properly, which seems less than ideal.

Depends. In theory by providing loads of cheap advance fares on that service it would be possible. But I agree it wouldn’t be a good idea. I’m just mentioning some additional stations locations that have been avoided (not trying to say it’s a bad thing) but it is the topic of this thread.

 

[dosxuk]

From what I can tell from street view and aerial photography that connection would never pass muster as a permanent junction.

Maybe not, but it also wasn't built to be one. It does show that it would be possible to build a junction in that area though, and the one they did build was done with very little disruption.

 

[Meerkat]

Maybe not, but it also wasn't built to be one. It does show that it would be possible to build a junction in that area though, and the one they did build was done with very little disruption.

I think traffic would be the issue - the last thing that bit of the M25 needs is a big new traffic generator!

 

[GJMarshy]

I'd say HS2 toes exactly the right line in terms of intermediate stations, only if it only goes ass far as Birmingham their usefulness will be halved! I can't for the life of me fathom why so much money and time was spend trying to create NPR as a way to piggyback off HS2 into Manchester to get a better BCR. With a base of 5 400m trains per hour, and potential to go to 8tph (Original 4 platform terminus) the case always stacked up. If it didn't, it wouldn't have been proposed.

Also anecdotally, whilst Crewe wouldn't be an "HS2 Mainline Station" per-se, it would effectively serve as a major interchange for North Wales & Chester which would get much better journey times to Birmingham/London by changing there rather than going on a direct WCML service.

Manchester Airport station perfectly captures the lucrative South Manchester/North Cheshire to London market which represents about 1/3 of Manchester-London flows. Forget messing around trying to bolt NPR on, just go back to the original HS2 only plan and build the thing. The benefits will tell the story for themselves!

 

[swt_passenger]

If the intention was to run a local stopping service on HS2, they would have routed it near some notable population centres.

…and four tracked it?

I wonder how many threads we’ve had now suggesting extra HS2 stations?

 

[stevieinselby]

But then you would need to leave lots of empty seats on long distance trains to serve it properly, which seems less than ideal.

If we're talking about a Parkway station rather than a Park & Ride station then the intention would be for it to be used by people living around London and travelling to the midlands/north without the hassle of getting into central London – not for people who live outside the capital and are trying to get into the centre. So you would expect to fill the trains on the intercity part of the route, but you would have some spare seats for the last little bit of the journey into Euston (which we will have from Old Oak Common anyway).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If we're talking about a Parkway station rather than a Park & Ride station then the intention would be for it to be used by people living around London and travelling to the midlands/north without the hassle of getting into central London

Precisely. We seem to see the need for it in the form of Manchester Airport station (replacing Stockport for this purpose) but we don't, for some reason I don't get, see the need for one for London, despite driving into London being orders of magnitude worse than driving into Manchester, particularly Piccadilly station which is right on the edge of the centre and does have a car park (albeit a bit expensive).

 

[JamesT]

Precisely. We seem to see the need for it in the form of Manchester Airport station (replacing Stockport for this purpose) but we don't, for some reason I don't get, see the need for one for London, despite driving into London being orders of magnitude worse than driving into Manchester, particularly Piccadilly station which is right on the edge of the centre and does have a car park (albeit a bit expensive).

Isn’t the difference that there would still be services on the South end of WCML suitable for that purpose?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn’t the difference that there would still be services on the South end of WCML suitable for that purpose?

There'll also be classic line services calling at Stockport. Same argument, effectively.

 

[D365]

Well in the world where we really wanted a M25 Parkway Station then I’m pretty sure it would be worth it.

And in that world, HS2 isn’t HS2.