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Long time lurker here but posting for the first time. While I'm well aware of TfL's budget pressures and also the challenges of keeping trains clean, I could not believe the sorry state of the Bakerloo line train that I traveled on today. The whole interior covered in graffiti tags, not just doors but throughout the carriage, plus torn / vandalised passenger/line information. How is this train even allowed to be in service in this state?
This gives me shudders of seeing the vandalised New York subway trains back in the late 1970s and 1980s. I've noticed recently Northern Line trains also starting to look worse and worse, and window scratchings/etchings becoming more of a problem again (I thought film used to be applied to train windows so the damage wouldn't be on the windows themselves?).
Long time lurker here but posting for the first time. While I'm well aware of TfL's budget pressures and also the challenges of keeping trains clean, I could not believe the sorry state of the Bakerloo line train that I traveled on today. The whole interior covered in graffiti tags, not just doors but throughout the carriage, plus torn / vandalised passenger/line information. How is this train even allowed to be in service in this state?
This gives me shudders of seeing the vandalised New York subway trains back in the late 1970s and 1980s. I've noticed recently Northern Line trains also starting to look worse and worse, and window scratchings/etchings becoming more of a problem again (I thought film used to be applied to train windows so the damage wouldn't be on the windows themselves?).
Managed decline, plus arguably the population of London seems to be becoming more feral. Arguably expansion of TFL has perhaps caused it to lose focus on its core functions compared to the days when it was essentially just an Underground and bus operator.
The PPP legacy has essentially screwed the Underground as well. Essentially the PPP changed LU into an organisation that was almost entirely just a people management company, with all the engineering functions hived off to the infracos. The PPP then failed, and left LU having to become an engineering company again, which has been achieved with mixed success. LU is nowadays an organisation which drifts where the tide takes it, not one where there’s a captain in control taking the ship somewhere.
The Bakerloo Line isn't really representative of the rest of the underground and passes through somewhat worse areas for antisocial activity than might be found elsewhere on the system.
The fare freeze and other causes of a reduction in funding has hit the underground hard but the system is still better overall than it was in the early 1990s. The 1972 stock for all its faults doesn't seem as old as 1962 stock did.
Managed decline, plus arguably the population of London seems to be becoming more feral. Arguably expansion of TFL has perhaps caused it to lose focus on its core functions compared to the days when it was essentially just an Underground and bus operator.
The PPP legacy has essentially screwed the Underground as well. Essentially the PPP changed LU into an organisation that was almost entirely just a people management company, with all the engineering functions hived off to the infracos. The PPP then failed, and left LU having to become an engineering company again, which has been achieved with mixed success. LU is nowadays an organisation which drifts where the tide takes it, not one where there’s a captain in control taking the ship somewhere.
I always read your replies your always on the ball, isn't that Sadiq chap the captain of the ship!!! My getting older brain can't remember what PPP is or was
There has been an increase in graffiti attacks, but IME rarely is the a "bombed" car in service for more than a day or two before they are cleaned up. Admittedly the underlying 1972 stock aren't in the best of conditions but it's a long way from the mess of the late 80's.
TfL has a pretty clear chain of command. There is a Captain and an XO. The issue is who occupies those roles now.
Much like a ship, it seems to work best when the Captain is a big picture guy focused on the threats, challenges and strategic opportunities on the horizon, while the XO is a details oriented task master focused on taking the ship where the Captain wants it to go, in the manner he wants it to go, for the mission he wants it to complete.
Managed decline is no excuse. The Royal Navy still cuts a fine figure on the waves, and could certainly put up one hell of a fight, before their inevitable defeat.
I do think if you compare it to other cities like New York or Paris, the graffiti on rolling stock is probably similar. Just the consequence of living in a busy city.
There has been an increase in graffiti attacks, but IME rarely is the a "bombed" car in service for more than a day or two before they are cleaned up. Admittedly the underlying 1972 stock aren't in the best of conditions but it's a long way from the mess of the late 80's.
am not convinced about this- the Central Line in particular seems to be operating numerous trains with graffiti in service. It isnt a 'bomb' attack as they are all intricate pieces rather than simple tags which you see in pictures in the O.P., & you know they haven't just been done because you can see depot staff have cleaned the paint over the windows but left it on the body sides.
I would suspect that poor stock availability which has been widely reported in the media is the reason why the Central seems particularly badly affected.
Funnily enough, I also rode the Bakerloo last week and thought exactly the same - there was evidence of an exterior grafitti attack poking up above the windows on the non-platformed side of the train when I boarded, and the interior of the car was in a shocking state. As the OP says, window etching was everywhere along with large, heavy tags all over the floor. It was a mess, and rather sad to see. I notice also that the round lights fitted to the car-ends years ago have all been plated over, is that recent?
The Bakerloo Line isn't really representative of the rest of the underground and passes through somewhat worse areas for antisocial activity than might be found elsewhere on the system.
The fare freeze and other causes of a reduction in funding has hit the underground hard but the system is still better overall than it was in the early 1990s. The 1972 stock for all its faults doesn't seem as old as 1962 stock did.
I don’t really agree with this analysis. Yes the Bakerloo passes through problem areas, but what we are talking about here is more general upkeep. It isn’t just the Bakerloo, the A and C stock fleets got into a state by their end, and the Piccadilly fleet is little better these days. Meanwhile the Central and Jubilee fleets are happily falling apart now.
Bear in mind that the 72 stock hasn’t ever been repainted since the early 90s (so over 30 years), and the 73 stock only a few years less. No mainline fleet has ever essentially gone nearly a complete book-life without a repaint. The only real explanation for this is that no one wants to pay to have it done.
As regards the 62 stock, always to be remembered that it was based on a design which dated back to 1935. So no wonder that 60 years later it’s going to look and feel very dated, especially as the stock never had any kind of re-fit during its lifetime.
I think we’re going to see over time that a lot of the focus during the PPP years was putting a sticking plaster on problems, and spending money on achieving quick wins. Whilst more fundamental problems seem to have been put in the “too difficult” box. I predict we’re going to see a lot of this on the stations - the PPP ethos seems to have been let’s re-tile a load of stations that don’t need doing, but forget about the water ingress that’s going on behind false ceilings.
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No disagreement from me there. I wasn’t attempting to offer an explanation as to *why* the organisation is directionless, just making the point that it is, and has been for some while.
The one thing I’ll say is that the current top management haven’t been dealt the best pack of cards from the government, but nonetheless I think most people agree they’ve not done the best job with what they do have.
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I always read your replies your always on the ball, isn't that Sadiq chap the captain of the ship!!! My getting older brain can't remember what PPP is or was
I’d say the whole chain of command, but yes ultimately it leads up to Khan. To be honest things weren’t any better under Johnson. Same excrement, different day really.
If the Government does agree a long term funding for TfL from 2025/2026 onwards then that'll go a long way since a fair things do need renewing, it's not just the 1972 stock that needs replacing but also the trams as well plus refurbishing existing assets.
The Bakerloo line has long been a state, I don't remember a time when the trains haven't been tatty, a few years ago there was a period when they were running around with multiple blown bulbs in the interior lights.
They desperately need replacing, the trains are clapped out and life expired
It does seem the worst graffiti merchants have moved on from isolated sidings to going after preplanned key known items. The brand new DLR train in Beckton depot, attacked the one day the security contractor was on strike, and just that one train done. The 1938 museum train, attacked on the one night it was out on a siding before an event. I presume there is some sort of warped credit given by their compatriots for all this.
I wonder when does graffiti become bad enough that the cost of repaints (and lost revenue due to stock being repainted) outweigh the cost of decent security at depots...
I wonder when does graffiti become bad enough that the cost of repaints (and lost revenue due to stock being repainted) outweigh the cost of decent security at depots...
It isn’t just depots that it happens at. Theres an increasing trend for it to be done at the lineside, and in some cases people are even brazen enough to do it whilst trains are at stations.
Whilst depot security could no doubt be improved, the real problem is that policing in London is becoming increasingly ineffective.
It isn’t just depots that it happens at. Theres an increasing trend for it to be done at the lineside, and in some cases people are even brazen enough to do it whilst trains are at stations.
Whilst depot security could no doubt be improved, the real problem is that policing in London is becoming increasingly ineffective.
Awarding large above inflation wage increase to drivers draws funding away from infrastructure,
There may come a point where investment in autonomous driverless trains is more cost effective in massive savings on the wage bill which will be diverted to rolling stock care.
I have travelled on Singapore driverless metro lines it seems to work quite well.
I do agree the railway could certainly do better, but we mustn’t be under any illusion that this would offer a total solution to the problem. It may well just move it elsewhere.
It does seem to have been shown in the past that graffiti not being seen does seem to provide some deterrent, which essentially means trying to never have trains in service with it visible. Unfortunately to achieve this you need to have good fleet availability, and many TFL fleets just don’t have this at the moment, and in some cases haven’t had for some time.
Even then I’m not sure what one does if a train gets done at a station platform or lineside, as is the new trend. Taking the train out of service doesn’t make it invisible.
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Awarding large above inflation wage increase to drivers draws funding away from infrastructure,
There may come a point where investment in autonomous driverless trains is more cost effective in massive savings on the wage bill which will be diverted to rolling stock care.
I have travelled on Singapore driverless metro lines it seems to work quite well.
The driver wage bill pales into insignificance compared to the costs of ATC systems. Indeed, look at how TFL have boxed themselves into a corner where Thales is essentially the only organisation who can provide ATC to LU, and so have very substantial bargaining power when it comes to naming their price, both for supplying a system, and perhaps even worse making changes to one.
3% or whatever for drivers is money down the sofa by comparison.
Bear in mind that the 72 stock hasn’t ever been repainted since the early 90s (so over 30 years), and the 73 stock only a few years less. No mainline fleet has ever essentially gone nearly a complete book-life without a repaint. The only real explanation for this is that no one wants to pay to have it done.
Awarding large above inflation wage increase to drivers draws funding away from infrastructure,
There may come a point where investment in autonomous driverless trains is more cost effective in massive savings on the wage bill which will be diverted to rolling stock care.
I have travelled on Singapore driverless metro lines it seems to work quite well.
London has automatically driven trains in some places (e.g. DLR, Victoria line) with on-board door operators who initiate despatch, similar to some parts of Singapore’s metro.
Followers of repeated RAIB ‘trap and drag’ investigations and safety digests will be interested to see how that final human presence might be automated.
Even then, could the UK afford the high levels of safety, reliability and resilience needed to be able send unstaffed trains into tunnels without human back/up on board?
London has automatically driven trains in some places (e.g. DLR, Victoria line) with on-board door operators who initiate despatch, similar to some parts of Singapore’s metro.
Followers of repeated RAIB ‘trap and drag’ investigations and safety digests will be interested to see how that final human presence might be automated.
Even then, could the UK afford the high levels of safety, reliability and resilience needed to be able send unstaffed trains into tunnels without human back/up on board?
Probably not immediately but if the drivers continue to make continuous excessive wage demands as they did demanding bonus for working during the Olympic event otherwise they will walk out which is quite ridiculous and the advance of AI technology it's just a matter of time of reaching that tipping point where ATO becomes a more attractive proposition.
Probably not immediately but if the drivers continue to make continuous excessive wage demands as they did demanding bonus for working during the Olympic event otherwise they will walk out which is quite ridiculous and the advance of AI technology it's just a matter of time of reaching that tipping point where ATO becomes a more attractive proposition.
I was meaning the red and blue parts of the livery, not the roundels. This photo shows fairly vibrant colours for a 30 year old paint scheme (despite some of it peeled off).
Tech wise it's already theoretically possible. The main barriers are evacuation in tunnels and behaviour (in terms of that people would just hold the doors open without a person shouting at them not to).
Several lines already effectively run as per the DLR with someone who is basically acting as a guard, though they sit up front.
Followers of repeated RAIB ‘trap and drag’ investigations and safety digests will be interested to see how that final human presence might be automated.
Even then, could the UK afford the high levels of safety, reliability and resilience needed to be able send unstaffed trains into tunnels without human back/up on board?
We can of course put the opposite view, that if it is suggested on-board operators are needed to overcome trap-and-drag incidents, why do they still happen?
Probably not immediately but if the drivers continue to make continuous excessive wage demands as they did demanding bonus for working during the Olympic event otherwise they will walk out which is quite ridiculous and the advance of AI technology it's just a matter of time of reaching that tipping point where ATO becomes a more attractive proposition.
I don't think I've ever seen the on train seating looking as dirty as it has been recently on most lines, some of the moquette looks pretty disgusting at the moment.
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