First Group Sheffield - London via Retford open access proposal

[43096]

Everything posted recently seems to suggest that Hitachi aren't really that interested in supplying more 80x units.

And any organisation with an ounce of sense wouldn't order them, either.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Everything posted recently seems to suggest that Hitachi aren't really that interested in supplying more 80x units.

Wasn't it more of a price issue? Either way it will be very interesting to see what they go with.

 

[Meerkat]

Everything posted recently seems to suggest that Hitachi aren't really that interested in supplying more 80x units.

Was this a temporary thing that has become assumed permanent fact?
Is Hitachi’s product just too expensive for them to make at a lower price or are they not interested….and if the latter what are they going to use the factory for……?

 

[IanXC]

It won't stop at Meadowhall. The stops off the ECML will be Worksop, Woodhouse and Sheffield.

I seem to recall HT's application talks about the option of first and last trains of the day starting/terminating at Meadowhall, depending on the chosen location for train maintenance/stabling.

 

[Iskra]

I seem to recall HT's application talks about the option of first and last trains of the day starting/terminating at Meadowhall, depending on the chosen location for train maintenance/stabling.

That rings a bell now you mention it, thanks for sharing.

 

[trainswitheddy]

Was this a temporary thing that has become assumed permanent fact?
Is Hitachi’s product just too expensive for them to make at a lower price or are they not interested….and if the latter what are they going to use the factory for……?

That's what I remember, being a price issue and not a Hitachi not bothering anymore issue however if that's the case maybe transfer the 802s to Stirling then something new for Hull Trains?

 

[Clarence Yard]

Price isn’t the one and only reason - they were reluctant to provide HT or Lumo with more 80x units or vehicles. They are really after big orders to keep Newton Aycliffe going.

Stirling will be 22x vehicles in the short to medium term and new build afterwards. Whether Newton Aycliffe is still open by then is debatable.

 

[800001]

Price isn’t the one and only reason - they were reluctant to provide HT or Lumo with more 80x units or vehicles. They are really after big orders to keep Newton Aycliffe going.

Stirling will be 22x vehicles in the short to medium term and new build afterwards. Whether Newton Aycliffe is still open by then is debatable.

Where is it confirmed that Stirling will be 222s?

 

[The Middle]

Where is it confirmed that Stirling will be 222s?

22x are specified in the track access agreement

 

[800001]

22x are specified in the track access agreement

So that implies 2026 at the earliest? Based on current situation with EMR getting 810s into service?

 

[Chester1]

So that implies 2026 at the earliest? Based on current situation with EMR getting 810s into service?

Avanti's 8 unallocated Voyagers are going off lease before then and can tilt.

 

[dk1]

So that implies 2026 at the earliest? Based on current situation with EMR getting 810s into service?

But I thought they preferred 221s to take advantage of TASS.

 

[800001]

Avanti's 8 unallocated Voyagers are going off lease before then and can tilt.

I’m thinking 222s, my bad, forgetting the 221s.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2024 ==

But I thought they preferred 221s to take advantage of TASS.

Completely forgot them! Just had 222s in head.

 

[Farigiraf]

Apologies if this has been already answered, but do we know if they propose to make any stops between King's Cross and Retford - e.g. Stevenage or Peterborough? FirstGroup OAOs do seem to like making stops at Stevenage, and they may also want to compete with GC and LNER over the Peterborough market. For selfish reasons, it would also be a good alternative to less pleasant XC/EMR/GC services to get to the South/West Yorkshire area from the East of England.

 

[JonathanH]

Apologies if this has been already answered, but do we know if they propose to make any stops between King's Cross and Retford - e.g. Stevenage or Peterborough? FirstGroup OAOs do seem to like making stops at Stevenage, and they may also want to compete with GC and LNER over the Peterborough market. For selfish reasons, it would also be a good alternative to less pleasant XC/EMR/GC services to get to the South/West Yorkshire area from the East of England.

Answered on page 2. Non stop from Retford to London. No time for other stops.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...en-access-proposal.260515/page-2#post-6571491

 

[RailWonderer]

Answered on page 2. Non stop from Retford to London. No time for other stops.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...en-access-proposal.260515/page-2#post-6571491

If they find time in later timetables a Peterborough call would be valuable, being a much larger town than Retford and would be greatly helpful to passengers forced to choose between an expensive, overpriced, busy LNER fast or a very uncomfortable, slow but cheaper Thameslink. Peterborough currently has the worst of both worlds and would do well with more options.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The problem with Peterborough-London (& reverse) punters is that they are relatively low yield and will tend to crowd the train out. The real money is in stations north of Peterborough.

Which is why Hull Trains has never gone for the Peterborough market.

 

[A S Leib]

If they find time in later timetables a Peterborough call would be valuable, being a much larger town than Retford and would be greatly helpful to passengers forced to choose between an expensive, overpriced, busy LNER fast or a very uncomfortable, slow but cheaper Thameslink. Peterborough currently has the worst of both worlds and would do well with more options.

Are the Lincoln / York terminating services noticeably quieter than Leeds / Edinburgh ones at Peterborough? Of course, that's 1 tph out of 2 or 3, and doesn't solve the price issue if you're not using an advance ticket.

 

[dk1]

The problem with Peterborough-London (& reverse) punters is that they are relatively low yield and will tend to crowd the train out. The real money is in stations north of Peterborough.

Which is why Hull Trains has never gone for the Peterborough market.

Didn’t TOCs in the past also object to Peterborough calls? It was also much more difficult until platforms 6/7 where constructed during 2013.

 

[RailWonderer]

Are the Lincoln / York terminating services noticeably quieter than Leeds / Edinburgh ones at Peterborough? Of course, that's 1 tph out of 2 or 3, and doesn't solve the price issue if you're not using an advance ticket.

I'm assuming an off peak 'First trains only' ticket will be cheaper than a standard any permitted off peak.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Didn’t TOCs in the past also object to Peterborough calls? It was also much more difficult until platforms 6/7 where constructed during 2013.

Hull Trains has never applied for Peterborough stops so no objections could have been made!

 

[RailWonderer]

The problem with Peterborough-London (& reverse) punters is that they are relatively low yield and will tend to crowd the train out. The real money is in stations north of Peterborough.

Which is why Hull Trains has never gone for the Peterborough market.

£108 anytime return Peterborough - London on LNER is low yield? A £70 return for a hypothetical First trains only ticket and £40/50 off peak would be a huge success giving P'boro passengers more reasonable prices for a faster service.

Take the nearest equivalent which is Rugby - Euston with its twice hourly Avanti service for £82-104 return anytime w/out a railcard. Luckily WMR operate the Crewe fast for half the price and it's a comfy class 350 with tables and plug sockets unlike the totally inappropriate Thameslink 700 on the ECML (the worst modern unit, on the network, worse than a 720 winning only on merit of build quality). Rugby passengers at least have reasonable options. I'd say P'boro is in fact a perfect call and past TOCs probably objected to open access calls there as they were afraid passengers would stop coughing up for their overpriced tickets. In terms of cost per mile, these journeys have no reason to be so expensive.

As for crowding out, they chose to only order 5 car trains. With an 7 or 8 car units you would easily accommodate a few extra shorter distance passengers.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

£108 anytime return Peterborough - London on LNER

When I think that in Australia, you can jump on any of the half-hourly trains you fancy (the fast ones having 2+2 squashy leather seating with armrests) from Sydney to Newcastle - equa distant to London Birmingham - with a smart card and be capped at AU$14 (£8) or AU$7 on weekdays (£4), that really is awful.

 

[dk1]

Hull Trains has never applied for Peterborough stops so no objections could have been made!

Fair enough. I just seemed to recall them wanting to back when we (Anglia Railways) hired our 170s to them in the early days and GNER objecting.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, I was the Track Access & New Services Manager for both Anglia and Hull then and we didn’t want them stopping at Peterborough. It would have blown the business case with the restricted number of seats on an Anglia 170.

Peterborough for HT has become a bit of an urban myth over the years but Stevenage was the furthest south from Grantham we wanted, to pick up and set down high earning traffic that could come/go via the A1/M25.

 

[dk1]

No, I was the Track Access & New Services Manager for both Anglia and Hull then and we didn’t want them stopping at Peterborough. It would have blown the business case with the restricted number of seats on an Anglia 170.

Peterborough for HT has become a bit of an urban myth over the years but Stevenage was the furthest south from Grantham we wanted, to pick up and set down high earning traffic that could come/go via the A1/M25.

That makes perfect sense mate. Thanks for clarifying things.

 

[Chester1]

When I think that in Australia, you can jump on any of the half-hourly trains you fancy (the fast ones having 2+2 squashy leather seating with armrests) from Sydney to Newcastle - equa distant to London Birmingham - with a smart card and be capped at AU$14 (£8) or AU$7 on weekdays (£4), that really is awful.

Which take 2 hours 33 minutes or 2 hours 53 minutes, stop a dozen times and is barely competitive against coaches. It's not comparable with the East Coast Mainline long distance operator. Even Thameslink does the distance twice as fast as the service you are comparing it with.

 

[MontyP]

No, I was the Track Access & New Services Manager for both Anglia and Hull then and we didn’t want them stopping at Peterborough. It would have blown the business case with the restricted number of seats on an Anglia 170.

Peterborough for HT has become a bit of an urban myth over the years but Stevenage was the furthest south from Grantham we wanted, to pick up and set down high earning traffic that could come/go via the A1/M25.

I don't think any HT services stop at Stevenage these days except 1 or 2 in each direction on Sundays

 

[trainswitheddy]

Out of interest, during ECML engineering works days would the service go via the joint then off at Gainsborough onto Retford Low Level?

 

[RailWonderer]

No, I was the Track Access & New Services Manager for both Anglia and Hull then and we didn’t want them stopping at Peterborough. It would have blown the business case with the restricted number of seats on an Anglia 170.

Peterborough for HT has become a bit of an urban myth over the years but Stevenage was the furthest south from Grantham we wanted, to pick up and set down high earning traffic that could come/go via the A1/M25.

Why didn't they apply for P'boro once they got the 222s and 180s? Those had the capacity and they could have undercut GNER and their successors with competitive advances.