On board ticket sales and operating speed

[Bletchleyite]

I live on top of a steep hill. It is rarely ever faster to cycle in the homeward-bound direction, unless I skew the start by, e.g., starting a few minutes after one bus has left on the Sunday 20 minute frequency. I don't think you can evidence that is is "almost always" quicker to cycle outside of your specific - highly planned - location.

I think living at the top of a steep hill is a bit "RUK standard minority" to be honest. Most people do not live at the top of a steep hill.

Is there any evidence that journeys on conductor operated routes were faster than driver-only operation over common sections of route at the same time period?

If you can't see that this is obviously the case then you're going to struggle to get it - perhaps UK provincial bus operators suffer the same myopia while the rest of the world gets it*? But pre-Oyster it was indeed easy to see because there were plenty of places where both types of operation existed in common, e.g. Oxford Street and the Euston Road. There were even experiments with conductor operation on modern buses, though these largely didn't succeed because people expected to pay the driver when they saw a modern bus, and so the faffing about as each one asked for a ticket and wasn't sold one and couldn't understand why didn't make things much quicker.

Some cash paying passengers may almost be as quick as Oyster - the ones who have the correct fare in their hand, drop it while saying "two quid please" and take their ticket without even breaking stride (though the trend towards stating the destination and the driver having to find it has added extra delay). But by and large that isn't how people are.

* For example I recall Hamburg very reluctantly introducing the requirement to show your ticket *at all* on buses - it was previously fully open all-door boarding - they were honest and open that it would slow things down but said that with rising evasion the cost of that had exceeded the cost of the slowdown - that's an operator that "gets it". Of course Oyster and the likes offer you that speed (or close to it, there's always some muppet who doesn't get that they should have their card in their hand ready before stepping aboard) without that revenue loss. And the £2 scheme could have offered it as an experiment for them too!

 

[johncrossley]

People have claimed that boarding times don't matter because traffic is bad anyway. What about the situations where we have spent millions of tax money on bus priority? For example, the Leigh-Manchester and Cambridgeshire busways. They still sell lots of tickets from the driver just like any other bus.

Operators should be banned from busways, or any bus lanes for that matter, if they don't make boarding as fast as possible. It is not just private operators on commercial services at fault here. The Leigh-Manchester busway is part of the Bee Network.

 

[Flange Squeal]

There were even experiments with conductor operation on modern buses, though these largely didn't succeed because people expected to pay the driver when they saw a modern bus, and so the faffing about as each one asked for a ticket and wasn't sold one and couldn't understand why didn't make things much quicker.

I believe conductors had survived on board Stagecoach’s route 73 in Dundee as recently as the pandemic, so one assumes the benefit of them on a busy route must’ve outweighed the cost of employing them to have survived the bean counters for so long!

 

[Snex]

Seen lots of people mention the bus operators are the issue here but I disagree. This is a local authority issue instead. The smart card or app which should be used to purchase these tickets should be done by the local transport authority, similar to TFL, which is being mentioned a lot.

This shouldn't be something which is done by each bus operator as it's just confusing. The same way there shouldn't be 20 different ticket types with each operator having their own and multi modal tickets in some areas not existing at all. This is what really slows boarding down.

If we're going down franchising and bus partnerships, the first change imo should be operators have no control over weekly / monthly and yearly passes and can only sell singles, returns and day tickets. It would solve most the issues being discussed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Seen lots of people mention the bus operators are the issue here but I disagree. This is a local authority issue instead. The smart card or app which should be used to purchase these tickets should be done by the local transport authority, similar to TFL, which is being mentioned a lot.

That was true but it isn't to the same extent any more because the banks do it!

 

[Starmill]

There were even experiments with conductor operation on modern buses, though these largely didn't succeed because people expected to pay the driver when they saw a modern bus, and so the faffing about as each one asked for a ticket and wasn't sold one and couldn't understand why didn't make things much quicker.

The approach does work fine on the articulated "ftr" and "glider" vehicles as these have tram-like saloons with an enclosed driving cabs. Of course the former has been abolished now and the latter is a cheapo replacement for what ought to have been a tramway. Are there any stage carriage services in Great Britain where there's a conductor? Or pre-pay with PF enforcement like some tramways? I'm not sure the "automous bus trial" really counted? The Dundee - Arbroath route has been mentioned, but this has been converted now?

 

[lachlan]

Buses do feel very slow but not sure how much of that is due to ticket sales - Bristol MetroBus still feels slow and you have to buy before you board - it's more due to getting stuck in traffic and taking a convoluted route.

Going back to the original post in my experience cycling is much quicker than taking the bus for the same reason driving is usually quicker - I can go directly from my house to where I want to go. I cycle a short route in town and I come close to (and occasionally beat) the time it takes to drive.

Speaking to someone who doesn't like taking the bus the fare cap does remove anxiety around the cost, but he still prioritises any other mode of transport (including walking or trams) over buses because of the perception buses are slow and uncomfortable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Buses do feel very slow but not sure how much of that is due to ticket sales - Bristol MetroBus still feels slow and you have to buy before you board - it's more due to getting stuck in traffic and taking a convoluted route.

It's all cumulative.

 

[The exile]

It's all cumulative.

And the delays due to onboard sales (or the time taken to validate “off-board” sales) are to a great extent within the operators’ control, whereas traffic congestion largely isn’t (except where it’s caused by a bus sitting for ages at a stop while it loads!)

 

[Andyh82]

There is a lot more non traffic related elements to slow a journey down, not just ticket sales

- The driver having to wait for the passenger to be seated
- The way officially you aren’t supposed to start getting up if you are getting off until the bus has stopped
- Pushchairs and wheelchairs boarding and getting settled
- Passengers boarding who don’t know where the bus is going/ or where they are going/or start asking long winded questions

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is a lot more non traffic related elements to slow a journey down, not just ticket sales

- The driver having to wait for the passenger to be seated
- The way officially you aren’t supposed to start getting up if you are getting off until the bus has stopped
- Pushchairs and wheelchairs boarding and getting settled
- Passengers boarding who don’t know where the bus is going/ or where they are going/or start asking long winded questions

Of course there are no easy fixes for those, whereas there is an easy fix for delays caused by ticket sales, as London has demonstrated.

"We can't fix X so we won't fix Y" is a very commonly repeated fallacy on this matter, but it is a fallacy - they should fix everything within their control, and their bleating about things not in their control might have more credibility if they did!

 

[Starmill]

A very limited rationalisation of stops, with additional stops added in certain areas that lack them, coupled with meaningful capital works to add nicer shelters and live departure information, combined with a move away from ticket buying with the driver would do wonders for bus usability right across the whole country. It would also show far more clearly where the absence of bus priority is causing increased costs and help to build pressure to start addressing that. There is very limited value in improving bus services by making them electric or free at the point of use or have nicer seats if these basic things aren't able to be done.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A very limited rationalisation of stops, with additional stops added in certain areas that lack them, coupled with meaningful capital works to add nicer shelters and live departure information, combined with a move away from ticket buying with the driver would do wonders for bus usability right across the whole country. It would also show far more clearly where the absence of bus priority is causing increased costs and help to build pressure to start addressing that. There is very limited value in improving bus services by making them electric or free at the point of use or have nicer seats if these basic things aren't able to be done.

Agree. German bus interiors are basic compared with here, often with hard plastic seats, but the operational side just works.

One thing we do need is a change in the law to allow overtakes to be put in place without a traffic island, e.g. by allowing buses to use tram signals. Short bus lanes with overtakes are about the most effective bus infraastructure I've seen, but the need for a traffic island means it's often too expensive and often won't fit at all!

But a change in the law isn't in the operators' control - ticket sales are!

I‘m not technical enough to know how to reply to this post by putting it in the new thread so sorry I’m posting here. Perhaps someone may be able to move it for me.

Replied to it here if this counts

I agree with so much of this post and I was also beginning to disagree with so many people concerning the speed of boarding buses. I fully understand how in somewhere like London, and perhaps other large cities, the time taken to board a bus needs to be kept at a minimum. However, I don’t think that should necessarily be the case throughout the country, especially on routes around smaller towns and rural areas through villages.

Rather than an anonymous person who sits behind a screen and sometimes doesn’t even look at the passengers boarding, I would rather board a bus where I get a smile, a friendly hello, and a driver who allows me to sit down safely before the bus begins moving. Even in a large city like Nottingham, where before the days of contactless and smartcards Nottingham City Transport introduced correct money only with no change given, the drivers have always remained friendly and speak to the passengers. The routes around where I live including Trent Barton and even Stagecoach, tend to have regular drivers on each route who get to know their passengers and have time for them. I find it quite strange and very impersonal when I go to somewhere like London and encounter drivers who might as well be robots.

Recently I had a week down in the Bournemouth area and did a lot of travelling on the Go Ahead Morebus network. The drivers there were fantastic in their friendliness and helpfulness. They were not behind screens, although sadly I do appreciate the need for them in some areas. Every bus I used I was almost welcomed onto the bus with a friendly good morning or afternoon and a smile. They were very helpful with people who were visitors and didn’t really know where they were going. They also had lots of time and patience with elderly and other less mobile passengers.

I think there are some rural services provided primarily for social inclusion where this might be a valid point, though equally the cost of these services is high enough that keeping them moving must surely be the priority. But in the end I go by bus to get somewhere, and thus want that to occur as quickly as possible.

Your point on screens is interesting. One way to return to not having to have screens is to remove the cash, as the risk of theft of that (and assault of staff to do so) is one reason for them being needed.

There's no reason a driver can't say a cheery hello when someone is tapping their card, of course. Most London drivers don't, but that's irrelevant to the type of transaction - London bus drivers only ever grunted at you, and that's just cultural - traditionally the driver didn't interact with passengers at all.

Having said everything I've said about cards, the immense faff required to accept an ENCTS card is nothing short of a waste of time. That should, from day one of the contactless feature, have been tap-on as the only option. Instead it takes almost as long as a cash fare while the driver faffs around entering the destination etc.

 

[ChrisC]

Unfortunately, some of the more dogmatic posters here seem to forget that buses don't operate in a sterile environment where everyone is perfect (drivers and passengers alike), and that simply stuffing people on board as quickly as possible is a panacea to modal shift.

In recent days, we've seen suggestions that any sort of cash fares or period ticket sales should be heavily restricted on board (if not banned), as well as complaints about how long it takes to perform card transactions. If these are all issues slowing down the service, why don't we take it to it's maximal limit, and ban everything that slows the bus down? Asking the driver a question as to destination? Anyone infirm who needs time to sit down? Wheelchairs, because of the time taken to use the ramp (incidentally, one area where provincial manual ramps are often faster than London's automatic ones)? Pushchairs, because of parking time? By the time we've forbidden usage to anyone who causes an "inconvenience", do we actually have any passengers left for a viable service? Or do we take the minor inconveniences as part and parcel of using public transport?

Equally, there is an easy contrast to some of the recent suggestions here. If delays because people buy a ticket on the bus is delaying modal shift, what on earth makes you think having to laboriously go somewhere else, or download yet another app (contrary to belief, not everyone likes to have eight dozen apps they'll use occasionally blocking up their phones) to buy said ticket will make the bus more of an option? Do I also remember comments above that reading mobile tickets can be slower than paying by card, thus a further delay to the service? Presumably those posters are aware that there are not insignificant areas of the country(side) where mobile signals are poor, internet speeds are poor, and there may not even be a village shop to have a Paypoint-type location? And presumably, where they exist, it's reasonable to delay people doing their shopping (because last time I saw someone top up a meter key using one, the machines were eye-wateringly slow) so the bus doesn't get delayed by 15 seconds in two days time?

For all the talk of London, are we really expected to believe that every route in London is the same? Are the drivers on the 383 or 389 (or whatever the W10 is nowadays - 456?) treat their passengers with the same disdain as the central London routes, or vice-versa that the passengers treat the drivers such? It was noted in last month's Buses magazine:

If companies are already struggling with driver shortages, how would lowering their morale by turning them into "beep monitors" make the job any more inviting? From an anecdotal sample of one, I know of at least one ex-London driver who openly stated one of the reasons he prefers to work in buses 'here' rather than London is because of the chance to interact with people.

Ultimately, yes, there are ways that boarding could be speeded up, and yes, companies could well be challenged in some ways. But that's largely going to be through carrots, rather than sticks, and not draconian restrictions on what you can and can't do in a sterile fantasy world. I don't believe for one second that non-bus users are being put off because it takes a few seconds to stick a ticket in a wallet (presumably they exist somewhere, but when was the last time a bus sold a weekly ticket to almost everyone boarding, as suggested with the "60" suggestions above?) - rather it's the general lack of infrastructure and overwhelming traffic congestion, as well as cost and overall uncertainty of where the bus goes. (It's been noted in other threads that bus use declines and traffic increases when it's raining, as people move towards being dropped off in a car). My entirely unscientific estimate is that you'd save just as much time by reconfiguring ticket machine software to default to card payment (if such is possible, rather than cash and the driver having to press a button), than you would restricting on board sales.

Might we take a moment to remember that whilst few bus companies are perfect, many of them are reasonably attuned to the needs and desires of their customers?

/rant.

I‘m not technical enough to know how to reply to this post by putting it in the new thread so sorry I’m posting here. Perhaps someone may be able to move it for me.

I agree with so much of this post and I was also beginning to disagree with so many people concerning the speed of boarding buses. I fully understand how in somewhere like London, and perhaps other large cities, the time taken to board a bus needs to be kept at a minimum. However, I don’t think that should necessarily be the case throughout the country, especially on routes around smaller towns and rural areas through villages.

Rather than an anonymous person who sits behind a screen and sometimes doesn’t even look at the passengers boarding, I would rather board a bus where I get a smile, a friendly hello, and a driver who allows me to sit down safely before the bus begins moving. Even in a large city like Nottingham, where before the days of contactless and smartcards Nottingham City Transport introduced correct money only with no change given, the drivers have always remained friendly and speak to the passengers. The routes around where I live including Trent Barton and even Stagecoach, tend to have regular drivers on each route who get to know their passengers and have time for them. I find it quite strange and very impersonal when I go to somewhere like London and encounter drivers who might as well be robots.

Recently I had a week down in the Bournemouth area and did a lot of travelling on the Go Ahead Morebus network. The drivers there were fantastic in their friendliness and helpfulness. They were not behind screens, although sadly I do appreciate the need for them in some areas. Every bus I used I was almost welcomed onto the bus with a friendly good morning or afternoon and a smile. They were very helpful with people who were visitors and didn’t really know where they were going. They also had lots of time and patience with elderly and other less mobile passengers.

 

[johncrossley]

Your point on screens is interesting. One way to return to not having to have screens is to remove the cash, as the risk of theft of that (and assault of staff to do so) is one reason for them being needed.

In other countries, drivers' unions have been behind the move to remove cash from buses as they don't want to be robbed any more.

There's no reason a driver can't say a cheery hello when someone is tapping their card, of course. Most London drivers don't, but that's irrelevant to the type of transaction - London bus drivers only ever grunted at you, and that's just cultural - traditionally the driver didn't interact with passengers at all.

Some London buses now have stickers in the middle door encouraging you to thank the driver. I don't particularly care for this.

 

[8ace]

I always thank the driver but now middle doors are more common in Brighton and Hove I sometimes feel a bit awkward doing it - especially on a busy bus if you have to shout.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always thank the driver but now middle doors are more common in Brighton and Hove I sometimes feel a bit awkward doing it - especially on a busy bus if you have to shout.

I just give a friendly wave towards the wing mirror which the driver should be looking in to close the rear doors.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Back when I was commuting regularly by bus in the north east it was noticeable just how much slower everything was on a Monday. Every single person was boarding and buying a week's bus ticket, and when it was cash only it was even slower. The rest of the week they just showed the pass and everything went faster.

Progress with off-bus and speedy ticketing has been glacial but what progress we've had is noticeable. Arriva Merseyside- as I've mentioned on here countless times- is significantly faster now they have flat fares and tap-and-cap.

Off-bus ticketing needs to improve still. Take the Bee Network, they should have ticket machines at the main stops, e.g. the "stations" on the Leigh Busway, and you should be made to use them.

I've just been to Hamburg and what impressed me was the off-bus ticketing. Main bus stops had ticket machines- and their definition of main was a lot more minor than it would be in the UK- and even the ferry stops had ticket machines.

Hamburg are also trialling a payment system where your phone app automatically logs your entry to a bus or train and charges you automatically based on when you leave the bus or train. You don't need to tap on or tap off anywhere. If they can get that to work then it'll be a game-changer.

Having said everything I've said about cards, the immense faff required to accept an ENCTS card is nothing short of a waste of time. That should, from day one of the contactless feature, have been tap-on as the only option. Instead it takes almost as long as a cash fare while the driver faffs around entering the destination etc.

That depends where you are. Northumberland and Tyne and Wear always just had a tap-on, but Cumbria made you state your destination. I presume the difference related to how the different councils calculated the reimbursement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hamburg are also trialling a payment system where your phone app automatically logs your entry to a bus or train and charges you automatically based on when you leave the bus or train. You don't need to tap on or tap off anywhere. If they can get that to work then it'll be a game-changer.

Same one SBB have been using for a few years I think.

 

[8ace]

I just give a friendly wave towards the wing mirror which the driver should be looking in to close the rear doors.

Will try this on the way home this evening

 

[Geordie driver]

I feel for the drivers now, there are so many tickets types and so many ways to pay then every pass has to be checked by the machine.

Back in the days of mechanical devices, the last Almex machine, a good driver could load 80 people in less than 5 minutes.

 

[Andyh82]

I feel for the drivers now, there are so many tickets types and so many ways to pay then every pass has to be checked by the machine.

Back in the days of mechanical devices, the last Almex machine, a good driver could load 80 people in less than 5 minutes.

Surely it’s easier as the machine does the work for you?

Previously you’d have to read what ticket it is and what expiry date it has from a metre away in one second, or do like I expect many did, and just nod on board anyone who holds up anything that looks vaguely like a ticket

Now the machine will say if it’s valid or not, and if it isn’t, the reason why

 

[HSTEd]

With the redevelopment of the University of Manchester's Fallowfield Campus, I have wondered whether you could make the case for a true South American BRT style station there, complete with ticket barriers and a "platform" for boarding.
The number of people that load and unload there is rather impressive, so much so that they often staff it.


My own experience of South Manchester buses is spending more time stopped with doors open than moving. Too many people with phones that fail payment or trying to have a conversation with the driver about a destination.

 

[Bletchleyite]

With the redevelopment of the University of Manchester's Fallowfield Campus, I have wondered whether you could make the case for a true South American BRT style station there, complete with ticket barriers and a "platform" for boarding.
The number of people that load and unload there is rather impressive, so much so that they often staff it.

My own experience of South Manchester buses is spending more time stopped with doors open than moving. Too many people with phones that fail payment or trying to have a conversation with the driver about a destination.

It's interesting to compare the (1)4x with Hamburg's former 102 (it's one of the Metrobus routes now but I forget the number). The route is almost identical in the traffic it carries, with both running from student areas past the uni into the city centre.

The Hamburg route is a former tram route operated using bendies, which retains all the old tram infrastructure including bus lanes up the middle of the road with "platforms" (not high ones), it's a single numbered route with most ticketing off-bus. Manchester's route is somewhat overbussed but with lots of time wasted on selling tickets and stop infrastructure that while better than it was really doesn't work well.

I'd really love to see Metrolink down there, but if that doesn't happen some sort of BRT style approach would probably work, though South American style high platforms are unnecessary with low floor buses. It certainly has the longest non-bus-station bus shelter I've seen.

 

[Ghostbus]

I have no clear memory of London's buses being faster or cheaper as a result of kerbside machines, but I do recall how depressed they made me feel for the city, and how glad I was to be leaving for pastures new. They're so alienating, and targeted at exactly the market you should be trying to woo. The tourists and discretionary travellers.

The human brain will always remember stressful situations. You might use one of these machines a hundred times without issue, or with a problem that proved immaterial. But you will always remember the one time it didn't work properly and you were scrambling and panicking as a bus approached, and swearing as you watch it drive off.

And quite who thought it was a good idea to create confusion and even anger in the minds of the typical person looking to catch a bus in the early hours in Trafalgar Square, I guess we will never know. Hopefully they no longer work in the civil service.

 

[johncrossley]

I have no clear memory of London's buses being faster or cheaper as a result of kerbside machines, but I do recall how depressed they made me feel for the city, and how glad I was to be leaving for pastures new. They're so alienating, and targeted at exactly the market you should be trying to woo. The tourists and discretionary travellers.

Roadside ticket machines have not been used in London for many years. Infrequent travellers are well served today by contactless bank cards.

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't understand the premise of the thread

Most people buy App tickets or use Tap in and Tap off. There is no need for on street ticket machines or anything.

Only a handful of people pay cash, it's neither here nor there in terms of the overall duration of the bus journey

 

[johncrossley]

I don't understand the premise of the thread

Most people buy App tickets or use Tap in and Tap off. There is no need for on street ticket machines or anything.

Only a handful of people pay cash, it's neither here nor there in terms of the overall duration of the bus journey

Lots of operators still don't have Tap and Cap. Even where it is offered, buying tickets from the driver is still available, even including weekly tickets in most cases.

Cash is not the problem nowadays. Buying paper tickets from the driver using contactless is now the bigger problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't understand the premise of the thread

Most people buy App tickets or use Tap in and Tap off.

Perhaps in your area. Not everywhere in my experience. I guess your local operator gets it - who is it?

There is no need for on street ticket machines or anything.

I agree TVMs are unnecessary.

Only a handful of people pay cash, it's neither here nor there in terms of the overall duration of the bus journey

This varies massively. But a traditional transaction is quite slow, whether cash or card.

 

[urban]

Progress with off-bus and speedy ticketing has been glacial but what progress we've had is noticeable. Arriva Merseyside- as I've mentioned on here countless times- is significantly faster now they have flat fares and tap-and-cap.

It's really noticeable in Liverpool how much faster boarding is on Arriva, which has tap-and-go, compared to Stagecoach which still has the usual transaction with the driver and receipts. It is hard to tell though if it has actually sped up journey times, as Liverpool's complete lack of bus priority has resulted in journey times increasing year after year.