class 158 to be reformed from the two sets damaged on 21/10/24?

[150249]

Moderator note:
Split from

Incident at Talerddig, Wales - 21/10/2024

Two trains have collided at Talerddig, Wales. Both trains are reported to be Class 158s running in 2 car sets. (Source, Realtime trains) At this time this is a developing situation and not all details are out in the open. The trains involved are believed to be: 1S71 Machynlleth to Shrewsbury...

www.railforums.co.uk

I suppose it would be feasible to create one unit from the two undamaged cars and wait for the two damaged ones to be repaired.

 

[krus_aragon]

With regard to ongoing stock shortages, is there anything about the ETCS implementation on the class 158 that would hinder reforming the undamaged carriages into a temporary unit?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are the undamaged vehicles a 52 and a 57 or two the same? Two the same would be an accessibility issue if both are the one without the accessible bog, though I suppose in that case you could form a couple of temporary 3 cars by sandwiching them.

 

[150249]

Looking at the photos of the incident, the 824 car is significantly more damaged than the 841 car. Too early to tell for sure though. Out of respect I won't share the photos given on news websites.

 

[Iskra]

Hopefully they’ll return to service, they’re likely to need some ‘buffing out’ first though I should imagine!

Surely in the short term, they can just take the rear carriage of each DMU which will be less damaged, to form one complete 158. The other two carriages are going to be out of service for a considerable amount of time.

 

[FD99]

There’s also different ERTMS equipment in the 57 and 52 car, so IF they are the same car damaged, it wouldn’t be able to go on the Cambrian.

 

[Harpo]

Are the undamaged vehicles a 52 and a 57 or two the same? Two the same would be an accessibility issue if both are the one without the accessible bog, though I suppose in that case you could form a couple of temporary 3 cars by sandwiching them.

What max fixed train length can Machynlleth routinely maintain? Looks like a very compact location.

 

[Proposedlines]

The 158s are probably not going to be put back into service as there is a few 197s with ERTUMS

What max fixed train length can Machynlleth routinely maintain? Looks like a very compact location.

Well there is 2 roads so I'd say 4 cars per road

The 158s are probably not going to be put back into service as there is a few 197s with ERTUMS


Well there is 2 roads so I'd say 4 cars per road

But Machynlleth is a carriage Sidings not a Maintenence depot they would either have to go to Crewe or Chester or Cardiff Canton.

 

[Wolfie]

Losing two ETCS equipped 158s, even for the short term, will cause problems for the Cambrian. 150s are not such equipped. If damage is significant, it may not be worth repairing them before the new 197s come into service.

Perhaps, once the necessary inspections etc have been done, it might be possible to form one working two car 158 from the two undamaged carriages?

 

[FD99]

The 158s are probably not going to be put back into service as there is a few 197s with ERTUMS

This is purely speculative but I’ve heard from various colleagues that the ERTMS runs up that line are not going great.

 

[Towers]

We have only a grainy image or two to go on, but if it’s merely cab ‘crumple zone’ damage and the body structure of the damaged vehicles remains sound, then they might just make it through repairs and back into service - it seems to be widely expected that TfW’s 158s will see further use elsewhere once they go off lease, so that may sway the Rosco into deeming repairs to be worthwhile.

 

[Towers]

Sure, it's not just the track though - its two units out of action from a limited fleet.

I wonder from the image on the BBC report if they’ll be beyond repair; the bodyshell of the unit on the right appears to be ‘opening up’ behind the doors, with accompanying creases in the roof. Might well be looking at reforming one good set from the two trailing cars and having to find a solution until new stock finally arrives.

Image attached showing the two trains post-collision, damage as described above.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder from the image on the BBC report if they’ll be beyond repair; the bodyshell of the unit on the right appears to be ‘opening up’ behind the doors, with accompanying creases in the roof. Might well be looking at reforming one good set from the two trailing cars and having to find a solution until new stock finally arrives.

While it could cause a bit of overcrowding, they could probably free up a couple of units by making one of the Coast services (the least busy of the day ideally) a connection into the Aber at Mach instead of a through service.

Are 197s likely to start service there before next summer?

 

[fgwrich]

I wonder from the image on the BBC report if they’ll be beyond repair; the bodyshell of the unit on the right appears to be ‘opening up’ behind the doors, with accompanying creases in the roof. Might well be looking at reforming one good set from the two trailing cars and having to find a solution until new stock finally arrives.

Image attached showing the two trains post-collision, damage as described above.

Could, the remaining 159/1 car from Salisbury*, be combined with the less damaged rear car? It'd create a "standard" 158 but would create a hybrid 158 at least.

*Still in store by Porterbrook at Long Marston.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But Machynlleth is a carriage Sidings not a Maintenence depot they would either have to go to Crewe or Chester or Cardiff Canton.

Mach is the maintenance depot for the TfW cl158s.

 

[43096]

Could, the remaining 159/1 car from Salisbury*, be combined with the less damaged rear car? It'd create a "standard" 158 but would create a hybrid 158 at least.

*Still in store by Porterbrook at Long Marston.

That is fraught with problems as the 159s are Cummins rather than Perkins engines (which TfW have) and more critically, no ETCS on the 159 car.

Best hope is that the damaged cars are one each of the 528xx and 578xx to allow a hybrid unit to be formed with PRM facilities.

 

[norbitonflyer]

That is fraught with problems as the 159s are Cummins rather than Perkins engines (which TfW have) and more critically, no ETCS on the 159 car.

Best hope is that the damaged cars are one each of the 528xx and 578xx to allow a hybrid unit to be formed with PRM facilities.

Wales train crash: One man dead after collision near Llanbrynmair

A man dies after a low-speed crash involving two trains, British Transport Police (BTP) confirms.

www.bbc.co.uk

I think they will. The latest picture from the BBC shows what appears to be the rear car of the westbound train to be one with PRM symbols on the door.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Are the undamaged vehicles a 52 and a 57 or two the same? Two the same would be an accessibility issue if both are the one without the accessible bog, though I suppose in that case you could form a couple of temporary 3 cars by sandwiching them.

The news pictures show the rear (externally undamaged) car of the westbound train to have the wheelchair symbols on the doors.
Update - on the evening news both units are shown to be the same way round, so the two vehicles least damaged are one of each variety.

 

[WAB]

I wonder from the image on the BBC report if they’ll be beyond repair; the bodyshell of the unit on the right appears to be ‘opening up’ behind the doors, with accompanying creases in the roof. Might well be looking at reforming one good set from the two trailing cars and having to find a solution until new stock finally arrives.

The TfW fleet position is currently pretty tight. 197 availability has been an issue for some time although the mk IVs seem to actually be covering their booked work! 158s seemed to go through a bad patch too recently. You only have to lurk at Chester, Cardiff Central or Shrewsbury to see the number of set swaps being made mid-journey to hold things together. According to station staff, it's an ongoing problem.

Remember, the 150s are now leaving the fleet when they come up for exam, and the 231s and 756s are not replacing them steadily enough. Perhaps if the pace is quickened on their introduction, 197s or 150s could go north to cover the non-Cambrian parts of the 158 diagrams (i.e., Shrewsbury to Birmingham/Holyhead to Birmingham). However, they may be working at full

 

[fgwrich]

That is fraught with problems as the 159s are Cummins rather than Perkins engines (which TfW have) and more critically, no ETCS on the 159 car.

Best hope is that the damaged cars are one each of the 528xx and 578xx to allow a hybrid unit to be formed with PRM facilities.

I did think that but as Angel? was talking about standardising the eventually ex Wales fleet the ETCS would have been removed from that vehicle anyway. There is the Perkins issue, however if the engine mounts are reasonably similar then an engine swap over would solve that - don't forget 102 was previously 803 so closer to it's 158 cousin than a /0 is. Plus, given the modifications over the years to various DMU Fleets I don't think it would be too difficult to change (the Hy-Drive Turbos / Turbostars have to be the most modified then converted back!).

 

[norbitonflyer]

Best hope is that the damaged cars are one each of the 528xx and 578xx to allow a hybrid unit to be formed with PRM facilities.

Pictures on the evening news show that is indeed the case - both units were the same way round.

 

[PZ 08895]

With regard to ongoing stock shortages, is there anything about the ETCS implementation on the class 158 that would hinder reforming the undamaged carriages into a temporary unit?

There is only one EVC (European Vital Computer) - for ETCS on a Class 158, so any reform would need to include the coach fitted with that. I can't remember which of the two coaches it is in, but it is in a 'shower cubical' like cupboard which takes up one seating bay at the inner end of a passenger saloon. The mobility-impaired WC would also need to be included, so I am reasonably sure the only possible reform would be with both both a 528xx and 578xx coach and not two of the same type; so whether it is viable to form one good unit from the two damaged units will depend on what type of coach formed the rear coach of each train.

 

[tony jinks]

Are the undamaged vehicles a 52 and a 57 or two the same? Two the same would be an accessibility issue if both are the one without the accessible bog, though I suppose in that case you could form a couple of temporary 3 cars by sandwiching them.

Maybe 52803 the only saved car from Salisbury crash could be used I understand it's at long Marston in storage

 

[JamesTecho]

From an image I found, the rear, undamaged vehicle on 841 is a disabled accessible vehicle, which means it could be combined with 24 to either make a normal set or double disabled.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

From an image I found, the rear, undamaged vehicle on 841 is a disabled accessible vehicle, which means it could be combined with 24 to either make a normal set or double disabled.

As been mentioned before in this thread with the ETCS equipment being split across the two vehicles hybrid formations are not possible.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

As been mentioned before in this thread with the ETCS equipment being split across the two vehicles hybrid formations are not possible.

I mean, sure, but when the alternative is simply being down two trains, would it not be worth having that 158 anyway, and keeping it on 197 diagrams or former 170 ones or something? The whole fleet of the TOC is stretched to its limit.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I mean, sure, but when the alternative is simply being down two trains, would it not be worth having that 158 anyway, and keeping it on 197 diagrams or former 170 ones or something? The whole fleet of the TOC is stretched to its limit.

I do get your logic but the answer is not realistically, it would have to become a non ETCS unit which then means it would require driver training on the thing due to the different cab layout.

However more significantly it would also have to be taken by road to/from its home depot (Mach) each time for maintenance (no other TfW depot carries the full range of parts for cl158s), just realistically not possible as would be an operational nightmare for an oddball unit.

 

[Harpo]

As been mentioned before in this thread with the ETCS equipment being split across the two vehicles hybrid formations are not possible.

Just for completeness, does anything between those halves (e.g. wiring) preclude inserting another vehicle in the middle?

 

[Armchair Bob]

Upon close inspection, it appears that the two trailing carriages are indeed 57841 and 52824, which would enable a hybrid set to be formed, assuming they haven't sustained any damage themselves from the collision.

 

[Sentinel]

Photo from BBC News website of 158s separated. Looks a write-off?