Public perception of railways

[45669]

Quite recently, my train from Redhill was cancelled - as was the one after it. A nice lady from GWR saw me hanging around and said that as my train, and the following one, was cancelled, she would give me a warrant for a taxi. She gave this to a colleague who accompanied me to the taxi rank and gave the warrant to the driver.

So instead of a ride in a 165 Networker Turbo on the North Downs line, I got a ride in a noisy Toyota electric taxi on the dreaded M25!

Earlier in the day I had paid GWR £15 for my return ticket although, as I had also travelled on Southern and Thameslink trains, presumably GWR had to split my £15 three ways. However, when I got out of the taxi I couldn't help noticing that the fare on the metre was £125, so GWR didn't make much out of me that day!

As a mater of interest, if I had been at one of the unstaffed stations on that line, would I have been entitled to call a taxi myself and and send the bill to GWR?

 

[TUC]

Quite recently, my train from Redhill was cancelled - as was the one after it. A nice lady from GWR saw me hanging around and said that as my train, and the following one, was cancelled, she would give me a warrant for a taxi. She gave this to a colleague who accompanied me to the taxi rank and gave the warrant to the driver.

So instead of a ride in a 165 Networker Turbo on the North Downs line, I got a ride in a noisy Toyota electric taxi on the dreaded M25!

Earlier in the day I had paid GWR £15 for my return ticket although, as I had also travelled on Southern and Thameslink trains, presumably GWR had to split my £15 three ways. However, when I got out of the taxi I couldn't help noticing that the fare on the metre was £125, so GWR didn't make much out of me that day!

As a mater of interest, if I had been at one of the unstaffed stations on that line, would I have been entitled to call a taxi myself and and send the bill to GWR?

You're not complaining about a staff member arranging a taxi for you, are you? That's precisely which some of us on other threads are arguing should happen.

 

[Brush 4]

Yes, Peter Sarf has identified the underlying problem. A once unified railway is now fragmented, with each operator acting in isolation. The end of universal couplings is one of the mistakes. Contracts for new locos or units should specify identical couplings, no matter who the builders are.

Hopefully GBR will reunify the system. If not it will be a waste of money (again) Any loco to rescue any failed train, passenger or freight. There are a few Thunderbird locos but their needs to be a national set-up of standby locos at depots. That is the correct definition of efficiency. Financial efficiency is a contradiction in terms, as it always means less, not more. Cutting back to the bone. The modern railway in other words. An integrated joined up railway is the only efficient reliable way forward.

 

[yorksrob]

Northern Rail. Don't have enough people to run a train service but they can find six people to hang around and do a fares blockade at Wakefield Kirkgate. Perhaps they ought to consider their staffing priorities.

 

[JamesT]

Yes, Peter Sarf has identified the underlying problem. A once unified railway is now fragmented, with each operator acting in isolation. The end of universal couplings is one of the mistakes. Contracts for new locos or units should specify identical couplings, no matter who the builders are.

Hopefully GBR will reunify the system. If not it will be a waste of money (again) Any loco to rescue any failed train, passenger or freight. There are a few Thunderbird locos but their needs to be a national set-up of standby locos at depots. That is the correct definition of efficiency. Financial efficiency is a contradiction in terms, as it always means less, not more. Cutting back to the bone. The modern railway in other words. An integrated joined up railway is the only efficient reliable way forward.

British Rail ordered rolling stock with a variety of couplers, when was there ever a universal coupler?

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Surely a factor there is that diverting a coach, if its normal route is blocked for any reason, is far, far easier than diverting a train; Apart of course from the much greater availability of alternative routes in the first place, there is no need for Driver's route knowledge, or route clearance for the vehicle, or a power supply for the vehicle (as with electric trains).

It is much easier to divert a coach as you don’t need to clear the routes, but drivers still need to have some route awareness. Everyone remembers the times drivers have clipped bridges etc, nobody remembers the times they’ve said “can’t go that way because of…” - for example, the first of the new Olympians arriving at a local operator that a driver refused to take out as he knew they were too tall for a bridge on route because nobody in a position of ordering them had realised…

it's available to buy as late as whilst you're sat on the train waiting for departure (if you buy an e-ticket),

Without wishing to be petty, but having read the disputes forum, if you buy the ticket sat waiting on the train, have you not boarded the train without a valid ticket and committed an offence, for which the railway could choose to prosecute you?

 

[Falcon1200]

The end of universal couplings is one of the mistakes. Contracts for new locos or units should specify identical couplings, no matter who the builders are.

That issue started well before privatisation!

British Rail ordered rolling stock with a variety of couplers, when was there ever a universal coupler?

Indeed, and the prime example was surely the Great Northern Suburban electrification in the 1970s, with two incompatible EMU types (312 and 313).

But I agree that when things go wrong there was, and should be again, far more flexibility regarding ticket acceptance.

 

[Dr Hoo]

You're not complaining about a staff member arranging a taxi for you, are you? That's precisely which some of us on other threads are arguing should happen.

All at the expense of The Taxpayer of course, rather than GWR (or any other entity with a ‘pass through’ financial structure).

 

[etr221]

That issue started well before privatisation!



Indeed, and the prime example was surely the Great Northern Suburban electrification in the 1970s, with two incompatible EMU types (312 and 313).

But I agree that when things go wrong there was, and should be again, far more flexibility regarding ticket acceptance.

Somewhere I have a document explaining how a Bakerloo train of 1938 stock could be rescued if failed, north of Queen's Park by a BR train (by then expected to be what became a 501 unit). Reading it, not something to be done if you didn't absolutely have to!

 

[45669]

You're not complaining about a staff member arranging a taxi for you, are you? That's precisely which some of us on other threads are arguing should happen.

Not at all. I'd rather have been on a train that the M25 (who wouldn't!), but at least I got home a bit earlier than I would have done had I waited for the next train. (Which I assume wasn't cancelled as well as the others.) Luckily, the M25, although busy, wasn't nose to tail stationary traffic as it usually is when we have to use it.

Regarding the nice lady authorising the taxi, could this not have happened in all the other cases quoted in this thread where people had to get buses or pay for their own taxis because of cancelled trains? I didn't know that station staff had the authority to arrange taxis in these circumstances, so is this common knowledge? And, if no-one offers it, are we within our rights to seek out someone and request it?

This assumes, of course, that the station is staffed and there is someone there to whom the request can be made. As I asked previously, could we call a taxi ourselves at an unstaffed station and ask the TOC for reimbursement?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Oct 2024 ==

All at the expense of The Taxpayer of course, rather than GWR (or any other entity with a ‘pass through’ financial structure).

You're making me feel guilty now. No wonder Mrs. Reeves has just stolen six hundred quid off us!

 

[birchesgreen]

Sadly, there are a lot of railway employees who do their industry no favours. In the 80s there was an effort to become more customer focused, but the old 'take it or leave it' attitude has come back with a vengeance. Still, they now have a government that will give them whatever they want.

Thats a bit harsh, its still a minority but it only takes 1 bad bit of customer service to take attention from a dozen good ones.

Now one TOC will not really rescue another TOCs train and freight locos wont touch passenger trains. The modern railway is hamstrung by the need for each part to look after its own.

Isn't that more down to couplers and lack of compatibility? A few years ago a 68 hauled Chiltern service failed at Leamington Spa, a Freightliner (70 i think) was behind and pushed the Chiltern service out of the way onto a siding. But both trains had proper buffers, like God intended.

 

[trainophile]

I’m not sure what the general public perception of cancellations “due to a short notice change to the timetable” is, but it continues to make my blood boil. There doesn’t seem to be any sign of this major irritant being phased out.

Bad enough when shown on a Journey Check page, but when announced at a station by someone who presumably knows the real reason, well unacceptable doesn’t come close.

 

[GordonT]

I’m not sure what the general public perception of cancellations “due to a short notice change to the timetable” is, but it continues to make my blood boil. There doesn’t seem to be any sign of this major irritant being phased out.

Bad enough when shown on a Journey Check page, but when announced at a station by someone who presumably knows the real reason, well unacceptable doesn’t come close.

Yes - it's a bit like if your nearest Asda advised its customers that it will be closed tomorrow due to a sudden decision not to open on Wednesday of this week.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes - it's a bit like if your nearest Asda advised its customers that it will be closed tomorrow due to a sudden decision not to open on Wednesday of this week.

Funnily enough….

Asda Hitchin closes for third time this week due to power outages

The Asda supermarket in Hitchin has been shut on three seperate occasions this week due to flooding and heavy rain.

www.thecomet.net

The Asda supermarket in Hitchin has shut for the third time this week due to a power outage.

Heavy rain, flooding and power outages, have all forced the Queen Street store to temporarily close since Monday.

 

[GordonT]

Funnily enough….

Asda Hitchin closes for third time this week due to power outages

The Asda supermarket in Hitchin has been shut on three seperate occasions this week due to flooding and heavy rain.

www.thecomet.net

With a fulsome explanation of the reason for loss of service.

 

[gobbybobby]

Loads of story's of just how crap rail travel can be in here, sunday was no exception trying to get from Southampton to Stroud via Reading for a family meal and back. So many gwr services cancelled the ones running full and standing to make it worse on my return the second to last direct Reading to Southampton airport cross country of the day was terminated at Reading had wait an hour for the next one what should have been a 3 hour journey took 5.

I was lucky that I decided to leave an hour earlier on the way to Stroud as when I got to Swindon and caught my train to stroud I could see the next 2 after had been cancelled and it's 1 an hour on sunday so I would have missed the meal had I got my originally planned train.

When I got to stroud a rail replacement bus was parked... seemed they put a replacement bus on to fill the gap of cancelled trains so there's something..

While stuck at Reading I sat watching full and standing 80xs go by full of miserable looking people

It can't go on like this it's not good enough

 

[Robertj21a]

I gave up using the railway system years ago. Despite all of the advertising hype there isn't any customer service, it's ridiculously overpriced, unreliable due to no resilience whatsoever, the ticketing is byzantine in complication and if you misunderstand one of the rules you are criminalised.

Likewise. Just too many uncertainties all the time. At least with a car, or bus, you have far more alternative solutions if things go wrong.

 

[Broucek]

So, the cash poor can't afford the tickets and the time poor can't afford the potential delays....

 

[43066]

Thats a bit harsh, its still a minority but it only takes 1 bad bit of customer service to take attention from a dozen good ones.

Indeed - and the stats show the vast majority of users are happy with staff interactions. I do wonder whether some who criticise staff themselves approach them with a terrible attitude and are annoyed when they get the same back.

@LowLevel thanks for posting. I feel your pain. As a passenger, it's good to know there are people like you working on the railway. Sadly, I see some very defensive posts from industry people on this forum. They may have a point from an operational perspective but imply a sad lack of empathy for travellers...

I disagree. I’d suggest many of the criticisms we see on here don’t reflect the views of the majority of passengers, and there seem to be quite a few sweeping generalisations made about frontline staff.

Plus it’s surely no great surprise if some staff are demotivated at present, so perhaps aren’t inspired to give their best. After years of vilification by the last government and right wing press they now deal with increasingly overcrowded trains and a public that is worse behaved than ever.

Any loco to rescue any failed train, passenger or freight. There are a few Thunderbird locos but their needs to be a national set-up of standby locos at depots. That is the correct definition of efficiency.

The chances of this happening are zero, and the definition of efficiency being used will differ from the one above!

So, the cash poor can't afford the tickets and the time poor can't afford the potential delays....

Again, this simply isn’t reflected in reality. Passenger numbers continue to rise, despite fares being increased (which is at least partly required to manage demand given crowding levels) and the vast majority of trains arrive on time.

 

[PeterC]

The chances of this happening are zero, and the definition of efficiency being used will differ from the one above!

Back in the 80s I worked in the O&M department of a major PLC. Efficiency was a dirty word as it could just mean delivering bad outcomes faster. What was aimed for was "effectiveness", delivering the right outcomes with the optimum staffing.

 

[Goldfish62]

With a fulsome explanation of the reason for loss of service.

Instead of, "Asda Hitchin closed due to a short-notice change of opening hours".

 

[eastdyke]

Instead of, "Asda Hitchin closed due to a short-notice change of opening hours".

Nonetheless, shockingly, no mention of a replacement trolley [bus] service for customers on diversion to Stevenage

 

[STINT47]

Nonetheless, shockingly, no mention of a replacement trolley [bus] service for customers on diversion to Stevenage

And no delay repay even though you may be more than 15 minuets late completing your shopping

 

[ic31420]

I gave up using the railway system years ago. Despite all of the advertising hype there isn't any customer service, it's ridiculously overpriced, unreliable due to no resilience whatsoever, the ticketing is byzantine in complication and if you misunderstand one of the rules you are criminalised.

As someone who is relatively accustomed to using rail, or at least was in the 90s and early 00s. The over complication of ticketing is a massive put off. The fact you can be criminalised for making a genuine mistake is doubly so.

When you look at how complex it is with specific tickets for specific services, certain operator only tickets, then you have routing, what's acceptable and what's not, peak and off peak, what's peak and what's not.

One of the appeals of rail for me is the turn up and go nature. But it seems that rail wants to go all airline on us and have us pre book. The inflexibility then brings more turn off when compared to it being the private motorcars ultimate trump card.

This weekend I travelled from Home to York, I had for reasons of nostalgia wanted to travel via Doncaster and booked Manchester to York via Doncaster. Return Tickets for specified trains came in at about £43 for 1 adult and 1 child. However open returns came in at £31 but were hidden at the bottom of the resellers site.

When booking this open return i had to choose my outbound train, it was unclear if the ticket was specific to this train.

Before buying I checked the Bus was running, I checked the trains were running in view of the weather. I however missed checking the Metrolink was operating. Having got the bus I then found the Metrolink was a bus replacement, but I had to trek to the Metrolink platforms and back to get tickets, with small child and luggage. Once on the bus I realised it went to all the Metrolink stops and it would have been quicker and cheaper to get the standard bus. I had asked about this but the metrolink staff shrugged their shoulders and said were not the bus people.

Arriving late for the chosen train I was concerned my ticket would now not be accepted on another service and because the delay was a metrolink delay not a rail delay of they'd honour it. I asked the gate line and they just nodded and said it'd be fine (still none the wiser as to if I could use it on any train or if it was a specific train that was honoured).

The next train was cancelled 8mins before it was due to leave with people stood on the platform. I asked if my via Doncaster ticket was acceptable on the York via Leeds train, again I was given a non committal nod and I was able to get that train.

Fortunately we turned it into an adventure but my little lad did get upset thinking we'd never get going. It just added stress! I am fine with it, but my partner, if she was with .s would have been very stressed and annoyed. She doesn't get or even expect ticketing restrictions and just expects to be able to jump on any train from A - B

Then chuck in complications from delays and cancellations and she'll just take the car.

And I suppose that's the nub, a simple regional or inter-regional 2 hour journey shouldn't be an adventure.


On the way home I was sat with a bunch of blokes who had been on a sensible pub crawl in Sheffield. They spent a good 20mins plotting how to get to their respective home around the GM suburbs from Stockport and Manchester owing to cancellations and disruption. I think that's the real turn off. I think we sometimes forget it's easier for us types with a rail background or interest than it is for the likes of my Mrs who has no idea and just expects to get places.

Price is of course another issue, sometimes rail can be really cheap, other times it can be insanely expensive, especially when you consider other aspects.

I'm not sure that rail has got any more or less unreliable, but now, with fuller days, work, children and responsibilities I am more wary of possible rail disruption to the point a couple of my regular trips to Preston and Penrith are now mostly by car. And so it seems others are more wary too.


But, I suppose, what does rail care, all trains I was on were probably 80%-95% full and there is talk of prices being raised to curtail demand.

 

[Rail Ranger]

brfares.com is your friend in terms of providing information on restrictions on walk-up tickets (and also showing the full range of tickets).

 

[yorkie]

This weekend I travelled from Home to York, I had for reasons of nostalgia wanted to travel via Doncaster and booked Manchester to York via Doncaster. Return Tickets for specified trains came in at about £43 for 1 adult and 1 child. However open returns came in at £31 but were hidden at the bottom of the resellers site.

Have you considered giving our site a try?

When booking this open return i had to choose my outbound train, it was unclear if the ticket was specific to this train.4

If you select "open return" on our site, you can be absolutely certain that the only tickets offered will not be restricted to a specific train, and you can easily see the relevant restrictions:

Arriving late for the chosen train I was concerned my ticket would now not be accepted on another service and because the delay was a metrolink delay not a rail delay of they'd honour it. I asked the gate line and they just nodded and said it'd be fine (still none the wiser as to if I could use it on any train or if it was a specific train that was honoured).

The next train was cancelled 8mins before it was due to leave with people stood on the platform. I asked if my via Doncaster ticket was acceptable on the York via Leeds train, again I was given a non committal nod and I was able to get that train.

Sadly we don't do integrated transport in the UK, but this problem is a much wider issue than the rail industry itself; as for ticket acceptance when cancellations occur, we could change this to be automatic at a stroke, but the decision has been taken not to do this, which is absolutely criminal.

...But, I suppose, what does rail care, all trains I was on were probably 80%-95% full and there is talk of prices being raised to curtail demand.

In terms of train companies and some of their employees; you are spot on and indeed such statistics will be trotted out to justify poor service, on the basis that the trains most people want to travel on, will be busy regardless. It's an argument that neither 'side' will ever back down on!

 

[Statto]

Sadly we don't do integrated transport in the UK, but this problem is a much wider issue than the rail industry itself; as for ticket acceptance when cancellations occur, we could change this to be automatic at a stroke, but the decision has been taken not to do this, which is absolutely criminal.

In terms of train companies and some of their employees; you are spot on and indeed such statistics will be trotted out to justify poor service, on the basis that the trains most people want to travel on, will be busy regardless. It's an argument that neither 'side' will ever back down on!

Integrated transport, reminds me an episode of Yes Minister (The Bed Of Nails) were Hacker is given the job of Transport Supremo, with a view to developing a 'National Integrated Transport Policy' for the UK, Hacker ends up sabotaging the proposals through a series of leaks when it turns out the appointment is not as rosy as Hacker pictured.

Funnily enough that the episode which introduced the phrase integrated transport to the UK.

 

[Mike Machin]

I gave up using the railway system years ago. Despite all of the advertising hype there isn't any customer service, it's ridiculously overpriced, unreliable due to no resilience whatsoever, the ticketing is byzantine in complication and if you misunderstand one of the rules you are criminalised.

Unfortunately, I have more or less given up on rail too. The two routes I used regularly were Winchester to Birmingham/Manchester and South Coast to Bristol/Cardiff.

Both routes are operated by ancient filthy, noisy, smoke-belching trains where not only is it impossible to get a seat, but often there’s very little space to find anywhere to stand. Paying huge sums of money to travel in such squalid conditions simply wasn’t tenable.

I now travel quicker in supreme comfort in my electric car.

I would say that travelling by train was in my experience, far worse than most people’s perception of rail travel. Truly awful!

 

[Robertj21a]

Unfortunately, I have more or less given up on rail too. The two routes I used regularly were Winchester to Birmingham/Manchester and South Coast to Bristol/Cardiff.

Both routes are operated by ancient filthy, noisy, smoke-belching trains where not only is it impossible to get a seat, but often there’s very little space to find anywhere to stand. Paying huge sums of money to travel in such squalid conditions simply wasn’t tenable.

I now travel quicker in supreme comfort in my electric car.

I would say that travelling by train was in my experience, far worse than most people’s perception of rail travel. Truly awful!

I guess that most people who have any other option will, nowadays, tend to avoid the trains. Obvious exceptions may be long distance trips or going into London.

 

[43066]

In terms of train companies and some of their employees; you are spot on and indeed such statistics will be trotted out to justify poor service, on the basis that the trains most people want to travel on, will be busy regardless. It's an argument that neither 'side' will ever back down on!

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone use ridership figures to “justify poor service”, or to claim that there aren’t problems.

However, relevantly to the premise of the thread, none of the statistics we have access to (whether the satisfaction figures I linked to above, or rising passenger numbers, or intensity of use of the network etc.) indicate the service is generally perceived as particularly poor in the way many contributors seem to believe it is.

That doesn’t surprise me, as in my experience the subjects people spend a great deal of time discussing on here (concern about prosecutions for “mistakes”, complex ticketing queries, unusual uses of tickets to break journeys etc.) simply don’t cut through to “regular” travellers.

It’s ironic that several posters contributing to this thread also claim to have given up using the railway! As someone who passionately wants the industry to succeed, I’d rather the railway focuses on the wants and needs of the increasing number of people who do use it, albeit that might not always take it in the direction favoured by many on this forum.