RMT/ASLEF announce strike action on LU (suspended)

[GFE]

Very fair that the forum has titled this a dispute (rather than the press who are focusing on "pay rise").
"Pay progression"/ "pay for performance" / "performance related pay" and Pay band freezes have been longstanding issues on TFL particularly with staff not on the "front line" and why there has been such a skills retention issue.

 

[ainsworth74]

Action currently suspended following a new pay offer. https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/london-cable-car-staff-suspend-strike-action-after-new-offer/

Must. Resist. Joke. About. Suspension. And. Cable. Car.



(Even if the cable car is a little pointless I am glad that there's a new offer in hand which will hopefully resolve it for everyone)

 

[Cross City]

Action currently suspended following a new pay offer. https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/london-cable-car-staff-suspend-strike-action-after-new-offer/

This 2 week old article is the lastest thing I could find too. It does say however:

All strike action from October 12 onwards remains on for the time being.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Must. Resist. Joke. About. Suspension. And. Cable. Car.



(Even if the cable car is a little pointless I am glad that there's a new offer in hand which will hopefully resolve it for everyone)

If the cable car is declared "Part suspended", what does it mean?

 

[stuu]

Must. Resist. Joke. About. Suspension. And. Cable. Car.



(Even if the cable car is a little pointless I am glad that there's a new offer in hand which will hopefully resolve it for everyone)

Glad it wasn't just me!

 

[Jonny]

So what is likely to happen at shared stations in terms of the Elizabeth Line and the Thameslink/Northern City lines?

 

[Mawkie]

The job families/banding issue is confirmed off the table for operational staff. So the current effective pay offer for Train Ops is 4.5%, for CSA1 is 4.9%, and CSA2 is 5.9%.

The banding was a major sticking point for me (and others) so I'll be telling my Rep that I'm now happy to accept the offer.

 

[bramling]

The job families/banding issue is confirmed off the table for operational staff. So the current effective pay offer for Train Ops is 4.5%, for CSA1 is 4.9%, and CSA2 is 5.9%.

The banding was a major sticking point for me (and others) so I'll be telling my Rep that I'm now happy to accept the offer.

Seems rather political to be offering different percentages for different grades of staff. I can’t see that being overly popular. Doesn’t exactly sit well that what is essentially an entry grade is being offered 5.9% yet a potentially well established train operator only gets 4.5%.

 

[Mawkie]

Seems rather political to be offering different percentages for different grades of staff. I can’t see that being overly popular. Doesn’t exactly sit well that what is essentially an entry grade is being offered 5.9% yet a potentially well established train operator only gets 4.5%.

I have been at discussions (in branch meetings) where the pay differences between grades was brought up - exasperated by years of blanket percentage pay increases across all grades.

As far as I know, the RMT have been pushing to close this gap and one of the ways of doing this is by offering a flat rate for all staff, with a differing underpin per grade.

(So technically, this year's offer is:

3.8% and £450 for Train Ops. [edit: a monetary raise of £3064]

And

3.8% for CSA2 and £1490. [edit, a monetary raise of £1970]

I personally agree with this as I am part of an all grades Union, but I can see how this might not work for ASLEF members.

 

[bluegoblin7]

The job families/banding issue is confirmed off the table for operational staff. So the current effective pay offer for Train Ops is 4.5%, for CSA1 is 4.9%, and CSA2 is 5.9%.

The banding was a major sticking point for me (and others) so I'll be telling my Rep that I'm now happy to accept the offer.

There remains significant concerns and question marks around pay bands. What is in LU’s letter is different from what senior reps were told in pay talks on Friday (I was there). Whether by design or accident, I don’t know… but the offer is pretty much unchanged from as it was when first made.

Accepted, though, I come from this from a part of the business that already is dealing with the realities of pay bands. Not sure if you’re RMT or elsewhere, but as an all grades union there really only is one acceptable response to the offer.

 

[NewcastleBrown]

There may also be market realties at play, where if it is harder to retain the CSA staff (with jobs being more interchangeable with other customer service for example) that TfL feels they need to focus more of their pay budget at that grade for retention/attraction purposes

 

[Mawkie]

What is in LU’s letter is different from what senior reps were told in pay talks on Friday (I was there).

It's probably unfair for us to discuss a letter which isn't available to all members of this forum, but if a Director of LU has written to both major unions, on headed paper, and cc'd HR, I think we can take that as the current offer. LU did say on Friday that they would go away and consider the trades unions concerns and come back with "possible enhancements" on Monday.

Not sure if you’re RMT or elsewhere, but as an all grades union there really only is one acceptable response to the offer.

I'm only 1 member of 10k balloted, but my voice will be heard via my Rep and my branch, all the way to the NEC, as will yours I hope.

There may also be market realties at play, where if it is harder to retain the CSA staff (with jobs being more interchangeable with other customer service for example) that TfL feels they need to focus more of their pay budget at that grade for retention/attraction purposes

I suppose so, but last time I heard there were 20k applications for CSA positions when it was advertised, so not sure LU have a hard time recruiting and retaining staff.

 

[JackS]

Seems rather political to be offering different percentages for different grades of staff. I can’t see that being overly popular. Doesn’t exactly sit well that what is essentially an entry grade is being offered 5.9% yet a potentially well established train operator only gets 4.5%.

Didn't the previous pay deal that was agreed work out as varying percentages for different grades?

If the same percentage is given to CSA, CSS, T/Op etc every single year, the gap will continue to widen between them. Personally I don't have a problem if those on the lowest salary are getting an increase that's 1-2% more than me.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Personally I don't have a problem if those on the lowest salary are getting an increase that's 1-2% more than me.

Would this not result (in an extreme) of there being no pay differential between hugely varying grades?

 

[diffarc]

Based on previous Tube strike action, what levels of service could be expected on each of the days?

Expecting no services some days, but sometimes on TOC strikes they are able to run some services

 

[Mawkie]

Would this not result (in an extreme) of there being no pay differential between hugely varying grades?

But nobody is going to extremes, this is simply about reducing the large gap that developed between lower and higher paid workers. It isn't a written formula; when the feeling is the gap has been closed sufficiently, then members will rightly be heard, and any future pay claim will be put to the company accordingly.

Under the current deal, my pay rise this year would still be over £1k more than a CSA2.

 

[Florence Rox]

Based on previous Tube strike action, what levels of service could be expected on each of the days?

Expecting no services some days, but sometimes on TOC strikes they are able to run some services

I am pretty confident that the strikes will be called off at the last minute. The last round of strikes were called off hours before the services were due to be hit thanks to the mayor finding some money from somewhere.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

this is simply about reducing the large gap that developed between lower and higher paid workers.

Is the large gap relative or in absolute terms? If it’s predominantly been percentage based, then that simply keeps the real percentage difference between one grade and another which is ultimately the only thing that matters internally.

£100 pound difference in 2004 is a very different value to a £100 difference in 2024 and reduces the value applied to one grade.

 

[Cross City]

Any chance the strikes get called off?

 

[Dstock7080]

Any chance the strikes get called off?

No movement in management position to ASLEF, no further talks planned, ASLEF strikes remain on.

 

[Daniel]

The job families/banding issue is confirmed off the table for operational staff.

The bottom of the existing pay bands doesn’t move, so there are operational staff still affected by this with the current offer.

 

[bluegoblin7]

The job families/banding issue is confirmed off the table for operational staff. So the current effective pay offer for Train Ops is 4.5%, for CSA1 is 4.9%, and CSA2 is 5.9%.

The banding was a major sticking point for me (and others) so I'll be telling my Rep that I'm now happy to accept the offer.

It's disingenuous to say 'job families' are off the table, and there are still issues with the pay bands (including in operational grades, as alluded to by @Daniel). The exact wording is that there is not currently a proposal to introduce 'job families' as they have been in TfL. That is a statement that could very easily change tomorrow once a proposal is created.

Anyway, there's been no movement as yet on any further elements and there's no further talks planned at the moment, so the strike is on. But, anything could happen, and those of us on the negotiating team (from RMT) are keeping our diaries clear!

 

[Mawkie]

The bottom of the existing pay bands doesn’t move, so there are operational staff still affected by this with the current offer.

Is it safer to say that the introduction of pay bands into roles that aren't currently banded is off the table?

Is there a proposal to engage in talks to remove banding for some of those grades still banded (which could have been left over from the metronet/jnp days?)

The exact wording is that there is not currently a proposal to introduce 'job families' as they have been in TfL. That is a statement that could very easily change tomorrow once a proposal is created.

At some point, both sides have to accept what the other side is saying in good faith, but if a proposal is made about widening the breadth of job families at some unknown point in the future, then the unions will respond accordingly.

For me, 4.5% is a good enough deal, and I'm more than happy that lower paid staff are getting a even better pay rise. However, I will be on the picket lines next week if the strikes remain on.

 

[GFE]

The long standing problem with Pay bands (on TFL) is that that part of the company has been reluctant to adjust the upper and lower bands according to the pay increase - Thus new starters often start at the bottom salary (without inflation adjustment) and people at the top of the band can't get a "salary" rise thus not pensionable or not considered when applying for mortgage etc
Also worth checking whether the lump sum is incorporated into salary or a "one off" payment

 

[lonogrol]

The long standing problem with Pay bands (on TFL) is that that part of the company has been reluctant to adjust the upper and lower bands according to the pay increase - Thus new starters often start at the bottom salary (without inflation adjustment) and people at the top of the band can't get a "salary" rise thus not pensionable or not considered when applying for mortgage etc

I was not aware that T.F.L did this but no need to confuse matters as this thread relates to L.U.L whereas the bands HAVE historicaly gone up in-line with payrises
Last year being the only exception that I can recall
Any way a new offer was made to the T.U on Friday, confirmed in a letter yesterday
Which is 3.8%+450£ (+£1970 for staff under 40K)-same as before
PLUS the bottom and top of the band to increase in-line with this amount.

 

[bluegoblin7]

Which is 3.8%+450£ (+£1970 for staff under 40K)-same as before
PLUS the bottom and top of the band to increase in-line with this amount.

The new offer was made yesterday, not on Friday. You’re also missing a crucial detail: whereas with the previous offer everyone (who was in post prior to 1 April 2024), irrespective of whether they were within or above their pay band, would have received a fully consolidated (pensionable) increase, this isn’t the case with the new offer. The ‘Business Rules’ are back on the table which means LU can decide who gets it and who doesn’t. There are also some concerning words around exactly which bands will change.

Sounds like it’s one step forward, and two steps back. This confusion doesn’t seem to be going down well even in spot salaried grades…

 

[Daniel]

The ‘Business Rules’ are back on the table which means LU can decide who gets it and who doesn’t.

And an important point with this - those on banded roles are therefore being asked by the company to accept a pay deal without being told whether it will apply to them or not.
The company has said they’ll apply it at their discretion, but hasn’t stated how they’ll use that discretion.

 

[Dstock7080]

As there was nothing further for T/Ops ASLEF continuing action:

Underground “new offer” gives no improvements for train drivers.

On Tuesday evening London Underground wrote to the trade unions with a change to their previous position on pay bands.These are the ranges within which the salaries of management, admin and “higher grades” are set. LU now say that they are prepared to increase these bands in line with the...

www.aslefdistrict8.org

On Tuesday evening London Underground wrote to the trade unions with a change to their previous position on pay bands.
These are the ranges within which the salaries of management, admin and “higher grades” are set. LU now say that they are prepared to increase these bands in line with the general pay award of 3.8% plus £450.
But there is nothing new in this pay offer for train drivers or Instructor Operators. It leaves you working more days per week and longer hours than drivers on the Elizabeth line or London Overground for less money.

 

[Thames99]

I will be in London on Sunday and see in TfL's status section that tube journeys should be completed before 17.00 because of a strike. Is this likely to be absolutely true or is there the possibility of some service running beyond then or the strike being settled beforehand? I would be travelling on the Piccadilly or Victoria lines if that could be possible.

 

[sh24]

From past strikes there is always the chance of service, but it can vary from hour to hour and often won’t cover the central section. More chance of Arnos Grove-Cockfosters than Hyde Park Corner-Kings Cross.

Best to make a plan avoiding the Tube and then have a pleasant surprise if you can use it.