Northern Still Using FAX Machines

[m0ffy]

By email to who? To the admin person? What happens when that admin person goes on leave? And the stand-in goes off sick? Wouldn't it be so much simpler to just send them to a device at the relevant location that instantly printed them out? Something like a fax machine, say.

Fax is on borrowed time. Email to print is doable but clunky, and unreliable. Pointing to a remote networked printer might be a goer, but in the long run it’s probably better to issue tablets to drivers.

 

[43066]

It's a combination of both. IT will save a lot of time in coming up with several different permutations of optimal rosters, to which human judgment can then be applied. It still saves time.

And what makes you think that software isn’t already used on the railway? Nonetheless, it still requires human input.

By email to who? To the admin person? What happens when that admin person goes on leave? And the stand-in goes off sick? Wouldn't it be so much simpler to just send them to a device at the relevant location that instantly printed them out? Something like a fax machine, say.

What are you asking me here? The sheets need to be displayed and the diagram needs to be available to the driver in hard copy when booking on. It cannot be emailed elsewhere for fear it may be misprinted etc. Plus drivers cannot under any circumstances use a mobile device to display their diagram.

 

[Djgr]

By email to who? To the admin person? What happens when that admin person goes on leave? And the stand-in goes off sick? Wouldn't it be so much simpler to just send them to a device at the relevant location that instantly printed them out? Something like a fax machine, say.

In the real world, that is the world outside the rail industry, these issues were addressed ten, fifteen, twenty years ago.

This is one of those occasions that I am absolutely astounded. I stand up for the railways as much as I can but this is light years away from how things should be in 2024.

I don't think people in the rail industry realise what a laughing stock it makes them look.

 

[Belperpete]

Fax is on borrowed time. Email to print is doable but clunky, and unreliable. Pointing to a remote networked printer might be a goer, but in the long run it’s probably better to issue tablets to drivers.

So every driver has to be issued with a company tablet, and log in. That all have to be maintained by the IT department. How is this "better" than one simple fax machine? Because it is certainly going to be significantly more expensive!

 

[zwk500]

By email to who? To the admin person? What happens when that admin person goes on leave? And the stand-in goes off sick? Wouldn't it be so much simpler to just send them to a device at the relevant location that instantly printed them out? Something like a fax machine, say.

Or have an internet-connected portal to which *every* authorised person can access simultaneously, and to which they can be notified immediately of any changes to their duties.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2024 ==

So every driver has to be issued with a company tablet, and log in. That all have to be maintained by the IT department. How is this "better" than one simple fax machine? Because it is certainly going to be significantly more expensive!

Nearly every company now issues large amounts of phones, laptops or tablets to their staff.

 

[Tractor2018]

I don't think people in the rail industry realise what a laughing stock it makes them look.

I don't think you realise how much statements like that alienate you to people in the industry.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Yes we still use fax machines.

There is no agreement between Unions and Northern to communicate via e mail.

To get an agreement, a productivity deal needs to be agreed.

Fax machines have zero bearing on delays and cancellations.

I strongly dispute this.

I have personally seen countless cancellations and delays as a result of fax machines - or more specifically the process that has been designed around the distribution mechanism - from roster sheets being missed and amendments not picked up, unit allocation lists being mangled and stock in the wrong place and staff faxing off annual leave etc requests that disappear into thin air being faxed to some poor roster clerk- and then basically not turning up to work because they did make the request and have a fax receipt of it being sent, and the driver, guard etc isn't to blame.

A lot of "late" safety notices that need to be put in the various notice cases at depots are also faxed in a lot of places, which advise of all manner of issues, e.g. speed restrictions.

 

[Belperpete]

In the real world, that is the world outside the rail industry, these issues were addressed ten, fifteen, twenty years ago.

This is one of those occasions that I am absolutely astounded. I stand up for the railways as much as I can but this is light years away from how things should be in 2024.

I don't think people in the rail industry realise what a laughing stock it makes them look.

I have seen several such solutions in various companies that I have worked for, and in each case none of them were as simple as the simple fax machine that they replaced.

Your post would carry more weight if you had actually mentioned any of the alternatives.

 

[66701GBRF]

I find it kind of laughable at some of the excuses being made for not using modern equipment. We have been using modern equipment for the best part of a decade for things like rosters, diagrams, company email, rule books etc all signed off by ASLEF without issue. You can bet any problems you think you can come up with have already been mentioned and solved years ago.

...staff faxing off annual leave etc requests that disappear into thin air being faxed to some poor roster clerk- and then basically not turning up to work because they did make the request and have a fax receipt of it being sent, and the driver, guard etc isn't to blame.

A request is not authorisation.

 

[43066]

So every driver has to be issued with a company tablet, and log in. That all have to be maintained by the IT department. How is this "better" than one simple fax machine? Because it is certainly going to be significantly more expensive!

That’s exactly what needs to happen, they need to be paid to accept it, taken off track to be shown how to use it etc.

Keep in mind that I don’t have an email address that I check (I apparently do have a work email, but I haven’t checked it since 2019 ). Work use my personal email to my smartphone, and that’s fine.

What wouldn’t be acceptable to me is being told, with less than the agreed period of notice, that my shift times will be changed etc.

I find it kind of laughable at some of the excuses being made for not using modern equipment.

All due respect, you’re on the freight, so those on the passenger side won’t want many of your agreements etc. without a fight. I do get why you guys do it, and some good mates on that side, but you should also understand why others don’t want to.

 

[InkyScrolls]

I don't see what's wrong with fax machines - they're easy to use and do the job well!

 

[Darandio]

I don't see what's wrong with fax machines - they're easy to use and do the job well!

Until they don't and it's not far away. This one will have to be changed sooner rather than later.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Until they don't and it's not far away. This one will have to be changed sooner rather than later.

This is very true - but at the moment there's nothing inherently 'wrong' with them.

 

[signed]

So every driver has to be issued with a company tablet, and log in. That all have to be maintained by the IT department. How is this "better" than one simple fax machine? Because it is certainly going to be significantly more expensive!

That's just how it works in the airline industry, and it seems to work great, basically every pilot at mainlines has a company-issued EFB iPad (Electronic Flight Bag as it's called in some places) with their logbooks, charts...

But to be fair, I kinda agree on the why is fax being used a problem?

 

[m0ffy]

I don't see what's wrong with fax machines - they're easy to use and do the job well!

They literally won’t work in the near future. In the electricity industry, fax has been deprecated (as one of many options) for the delivery of demand notices because it will not work after PSTN switch off.

 

[InkyScrolls]

They literally won’t work in the near future. In the electricity industry, fax has been deprecated (as one of many options) for the delivery of demand notices because it will not work after PSTN switch off.

Indeed, but that isn't an issue with fax machines themselves. I.e., if it were not that they will soon per force be replaced, they would continue to be fit for the purpose for which they are currently used.

 

[43066]

That's just how it works in the airline industry, and it seems to work great, basically every pilot at mainlines has a company-issued EFB iPad (Electronic Flight Bag as it's called in some places) with their logbooks, charts...

But to be fair, I kinda agree on the why is fax being used a problem?

Their rostering has a good deal of human input, though. And they get the same calls begging them to come to work because they’ve failed to cover a job that we get on the railway.

Source? An experienced 737 skipper, who had an EFB etc.

 

[Starmill]

they need to be paid to accept it, taken off track to be shown how to use it etc.

Shown? Shown what? "press the power button to switch the tablet on" and "press the outlook icon to open the email app"? Even if it's the first time, ever, you've used that tablet model and operating system that's all there is to it. There is nothing to be shown.

 

[signed]

Indeed, but that isn't an issue with fax machines themselves. I.e., if it were not that they will soon per force be replaced, they would continue to be fit for the purpose for which they are currently used.

Not if the lines making that a possibility get shut, Fax-over-VOIP (voice over IP) is possible but a major PITA and may require extra equipment.

Now fax is mostly done through eFaxing where one end is email and a 3rd party does the relay


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2024 ==

Their rostering has a good deal of human input, though. And they get the same calls begging them to come to work because they’ve failed to cover a job that we get on the railway.

Source? An experienced 737 skipper, who had an EFB etc.

I am responding to the tablet comment, yeah, I do agree that rostering has a good bit of human input

 

[Starmill]

I don't see what's wrong with fax machines - they're easy to use and do the job well!

Once their old protocol is gone they will become unusable without a workaround, as others have said.

 

[Horizon22]

Why even that though? Rostering is a task that technology can very readily do.

Yes scanning and printing is almost ubiquitous now and very easy once set up to utilise. Even for things like diagrams and fault reports (which don't even need to be paper-based).

This is one area where I can't really seen the union's point of view for a "productivity payment" and its just called 'getting with the times'. And yes the TOC also has some part to play by having outdated technology policies.

 

[Starmill]

Indeed, but that isn't an issue with fax machines themselves. I.e., if it were not that they will soon per force be replaced, they would continue to be fit for the purpose for which they are currently used.

This is rather naive. Do you think the VHS is also still fit for the purpose it was designed? What about 3G?

 

[Horizon22]

Fax is on borrowed time. Email to print is doable but clunky, and unreliable. Pointing to a remote networked printer might be a goer, but in the long run it’s probably better to issue tablets to drivers.

Eh?

The software is all digital to print off diagrams, so someone can do so to a networked printer. Again this isn't remotely cutting edge and has been around for decades.

 

[43066]

Shown? Shown what? "press the power button to switch the tablet on" and "press the outlook icon to open the email app"? Even if it's the first time, ever, you've uses that tablet model and operating system that's all there is to it. There is nothing to be shown.

I would personally agree with you here, as a relatively young person, but what if you don’t know how to use Apple (or the equivalent)? I’m fairly tech savvy, but haven’t used Android for 10+ years, so if work suddenly want me to use it, especially for safety critical type stuff like reading notices, I’d expect some form of training. I’d also expect said training to be on their dime. That’s no different to any of the non railway employers I have experience of.

What if the person concerned doesn’t know how to use any form of IT? Believe it or not there are drivers out there with non smartphones, and in some cases no mobile phones at all, who have been in the role for 30+ years. They also need to be retrained, and that isn’t easy…

 

[signed]

The software is all digital to print off diagrams, so someone can do so to a networked printer.

In the IT space, printers are known as the devil, they are the most unreliable piece of tech you can imagine. So much that most companies rent their printers on support contracts to not have to deal with it. Depending on the exact setup, it can be either very easy for the admin or pure hell.

In theory absolutely.

 

[Killingworth]

At the meeting a question was put by a former trades union officer with 25 years experience of working with a variety of companies. He could not think of a single occasion when negotiations would have got down to the details of using or not using fax machines.

One has to wonder whether Northern has seriously tried to introduce a better system.

Far more serious is that successive management teams with Northern and its antecedents have committed themselves to Sunday and evening timetables in full knowledge that they could not be delivered if their staff didn't want to work voluntary overtime.

In a previous life as an elected union representative I recall arguing against strike action. I pointed out that working to rule and banning all non contractual overtime would be a far more effective sanction and cost most workers very little. In well run parts of the business it would have minimal effect on customers. And so it was. In a small number of critical areas the wheels effectively came off! Those badly managed sections won, or lost, the dispute for themselves and everyone else.

So back to today. The current Northern management is being hung out to dry because their predecessors have muddled through. Only natural to take the line of least resistance.

As recently as 6 months ago, despite long running salary disputes, a less unreliable service was being run, strike days excepted.

Fax machines are an amusing irrelevance in the wider picture. All sides need to urgently resolve this before the otherwise improving leisure market is severely impacted in the longer term.

 

[Horizon22]

In the IT space, printers are known as the devil, they are the most unreliable piece of tech you can imagine. So much that most companies rent their printers on support contracts to not have to deal with it. Depending on the exact setup, it can be either very easy for the admin or pure hell.

In theory absolutely.

I can count on one hand in several years that a faulty/malfunctioning printer has caused a detrimental impact in the case of driver diagramming or rostering. It may occasionally need someone with a basic grasp of the technology to be able to resolve minor problems (paper jams etc.) and modern printers these days normally are able to pinpoint the issue and graphically show you what needs doing.

There's no "theory" about this; faxes haven't been part of the operation at numerous operators for many years now, let alone the vast majority of the working world.

 

[syorksdeano]

See, if faxes had been sent to the Heart of Britain then Nightsleeper wouldn't have happened

But in all fairness, why do faxes have to be used? Surely the unions will be speaking to members and other people by email.

 

[TUC]

By email to who? To the admin person? What happens when that admin person goes on leave? And the stand-in goes off sick? Wouldn't it be so much simpler to just send them to a device at the relevant location that instantly printed them out? Something like a fax machine, say.

To a group email.address to which all of the relevant staff belong-the same as in any other business.

 

[43066]

I can count on one hand in several years that a faulty/malfunctioning printer has caused a detrimental impact in the case of driver diagramming or rostering. It may occasionally need someone with a basic grasp of the technology to be able to resolve minor problems (paper jams etc.) and modern printers these days normally are able to pinpoint the issue and graphically show you what needs doing.

There's no "theory" about this; faxes haven't been part of the operation at numerous operators for many years now, let alone the vast majority of the working world.

The premise of the thread is something of a nonsense, tbh. It’s almost all done via email these days.

My depot have a mandatory training course we need to do, so the company have offered a choice of being taken off track for a day to do it, or being paid for a day to do it at home (via out own devices). So a choice is offered…

Our Ts and Cs are decent, let’s not get it wrong, but others should aspire to similar, rather than criticising us…

To a group email.address to which all of the relevant staff belong the same as in any other business.

I don’t think you’re familiar with how modern rostering software works, as previously discussed, in those businesses that require it.

So why do you keep pontificating about it?