Northern Still Using FAX Machines

[HerneHill]

Has it been an issue in the recent union disputes with TOC managements, now supposedly resolved at the DfT level?
Do other TOCs have similar technology issues?

My impression is that this is purely a union “technology payments” issue - if I recall correctly my TOC had to negotiate a fair bit with unions when we transitioned crew diagram communication over to a cloud platform.

 

[TUC]

I don't work for the nhs, so I don't know what controls they have but it is fairly easy to install passwords on fax machines. I've worked for companies where you have to enter your password at the printer to get things printed, I'm sure the same can apply to faxes.

That may be the case, but I think that is far from universally applied.

It still comes back to who wants such old world technology? Many of us manage our bank accounts online and are content with the level of security that is provided. Why would we not be content for other purposes?

But to get back to the main subject, never mind the NHS it is even harder to see why faxes should be retained in the rail industry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2024 ==

My impression is that this is purely a union “technology payments” issue - if I recall correctly my TOC had to negotiate a fair bit with unions when we transitioned crew diagram communication over to a cloud platform.

Whiist the rest of us with every other employer positively welcomed the change and it would not even have entered our heads to ask for more money. We saw it as a benefit not a burden.

 

[Moonshot]

The latest "railway in the dark ages" story to surface is the apparent admission by Northern officials that they still rely on fax communication to train crew.
This emerged at a Rail North Northern performance review chaired by Andy Burnham, Mayor of GM.
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...n-uses-fax-machines-send-messages-train-crews



What is the actual truth behind this apparent inability to use modern technology (email, apps etc)?
Has it been an issue in the recent union disputes with TOC managements, now supposedly resolved at the DfT level?
Do other TOCs have similar technology issues?
Could they ditch FAX machines "tomorrow"?

The Guardian notes that Northern has been a DOHL TOC for over 4 years and is therefore under public control.
.

Yes we still use fax machines.

There is no agreement between Unions and Northern to communicate via e mail.

To get an agreement, a productivity deal needs to be agreed.

Fax machines have zero bearing on delays and cancellations.

 

[TUC]

Yes we still use fax machines.

There is no agreement between Unions and Northern to communicate via e mail.

To get an agreement, a productivity deal needs to be agreed.

Fax machines have zero bearing on delays and cancellations.

See my post above.

 

[12LDA28C]

Back in B.R. days some changes that, under Union agreements, were 'negotiation' and others that were 'consultation'. That was a very important distinction, but I have no idea if it still applies

It does. Note that the recent proposed closure of ticket offices involved 'consulatation' with the Unions which basically just means they were told it was going to happen. Right up to the point at which of course a U-turn was made and it didn't happen.

 

[43066]

My post generated the range of responses I expected!

What happens in other industries is not completely irrelevant, particularly when you are a (rightly) subsidised service industry.
It's not a good look, and that, like it or not, is important

And your post was exactly what I would have expected from someone who clearly lacks understanding of the industry, but is always suspiciously quick to blame the unions for any and all problems. It is just a statement of your own view, you do not speak for the entire public, and whether you think it’s “a good look” or not is irrelevant to how the industry operates.

For some parts of the railway. But not for most of it.

Generally tech changes of the type being discussed require negotiation.

However, you still have to keep an eye out for the unions taking the piss, and I always take a very dim view of demands for technology payments for changes which aren't really an imposition, or indeed make the work of traincrew easier.

There’s also a need to watch for employers taking the p*ss.

These changes also tend to make the lives of the employer easier, and in the case of scanning tickets might render employees out of pocket, so it’s right that a negotiation takes place.

That’s the way it is on the railway, and I doubt it will be changing anytime soon! Traincrew grades don’t have other benefits such as private health cover, bonuses etc. but strangely those who criticise tech payments seem to forget that.

 

[stuartl]

There is technology available that allows a fax to be sent/ received to an email address.

 

[Dr Hoo]

So what is the actual ‘issue’ or ‘problem’ that fax machines are causing. If information is being transmitted and received in a timely manner how is it different to more digital methods? Is Andy Burnham just worried about the environmental burden of cutting trees down and so on?
How many trains does Andy Burnham think are cancelled every Sunday (or other day) solely because of fax machines?

 

[renegademaster]

The reference to unhackable refers to the ability of lack of to intercept a fax enroute. For this reason they are still used for some legal agreements.

If you have access to the telephone cabinet outside you can read the fax.

 

[simonw]

That may be the case, but I think that is far from universally applied.

It still comes back to who wants such old world technology? Many of us manage our bank accounts online and are content with the level of security that is provided. Why would we not be content for other purposes?

But to get back to the main subject, never mind the NHS it is even harder to see why faxes should be retained in the rail industry.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2024 ==


Whiist the rest of us with every other employer positively welcomed the change and it would not even have entered our heads to ask for more money. We saw it as a benefit not a burden.

I imagine that northern feels there are rather bigger issues with greater potential returns that need tackling.

 

[m0ffy]

Yes we still use fax machines.

There is no agreement between Unions and Northern to communicate via e mail.

To get an agreement, a productivity deal needs to be agreed.

Fax machines have zero bearing on delays and cancellations.

You have to be kidding me. PSTN switch off is coming, so any future fax communication will be email-based anyway.

 

[Paceman]

This is by diktat of Aslef who want another huge pay uplift in return for them allowing the company to use e-mail.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2024 ==

Strange how Burnham asked a question to which he already knows the answer and he knows the reason why.

 

[Djgr]

Yes we still use fax machines.

There is no agreement between Unions and Northern to communicate via e mail.

To get an agreement, a productivity deal needs to be agreed.

Fax machines have zero bearing on delays and cancellations.

What a joke. What an embarrassment.

 

[TUC]

So what is the actual ‘issue’ or ‘problem’ that fax machines are causing. If information is being transmitted and received in a timely manner how is it different to more digital methods? Is Andy Burnham just worried about the environmental burden of cutting trees down and so on?
How many trains does Andy Burnham think are cancelled every Sunday (or other day) solely because of fax machines?

No, but it does add to the image of the rail industry being stuck in the past.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2024 ==

What a joke. What an embarrassment.

Agreed.

 

[scrapy]

No, but it does add to the image of the rail industry being stuck in the past.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2024 ==


Agreed.

Fax machines are only used for drivers rostering issues afaik. The majority of communication within Northern is done by more modern means.

 

[Moonshot]

Fax machines are only used for drivers rostering issues afaik. The majority of communication within Northern is done by more modern means.

Bit more than that.....we fax repair book items to maintenance depots as an example.

 

[Uncle Buck]

What a joke. What an embarrassment.

I agree with you- this attitude defies belief for 99% of private sector workers in this (or any other Western) country.

 

[Belperpete]

If a cheap and simple fax machine does the job adequately, what is the problem?

Fax machines are useful for point to point communications, rather than person to person communications. Where you want anybody at point A to be able to send something that will be received by whoever is currently working at point B, for example.

 

[TUC]

Fax machines are only used for drivers rostering issues afaik. The majority of communication within Northern is done by more modern means.

Why even that though? Rostering is a task that technology can very readily do.

 

[sefyllian]

Let’s just hope that no-one tells Andy Burnham how many semaphore signals are still in use.

 

[43066]

Why even that though? Rostering is a task that technology can very readily do.

Wrong. Rostering on the railway still requires a good deal of human input, the same is the case in the airline sector (based on knowing people who work in it).

You seem to have a lot of faith in the technology (which technology, specifically?) but little knowledge of the industry.

Let’s just hope that no-one tells Andy Burnham how many semaphore signals are still in use.

I’m surprised he hasn’t asked why we don’t have driverless trains everywhere.

 

[tpfx89]

Bit more than that.....we fax repair book items to maintenance depots as an example.

To be fair though, most office printers now allow you to scan an item to an email address, and even save the address in the printer

 

[Towers]

Why on earth does anybody give a toss?

And why wasn’t the response, quite simply, “Because it’s by far the simplest way of producing a paper copy of an up to date document, which can change at any time throughout day, as required by our drivers in order to carry out their duties”. The same reason that paper notices are still displayed in physical notice cases.

I wonder how much understanding the person answering has of a Late Notice document and its importance and use. Perhaps Mr Burham would prefer it if drivers had an extra few minutes booking on time, with the associated costs, so that they can boot up their IT devices, load it up and read it all digitally? Not to mention the time and facilities to keep it fully charged at the company’s expense, plus the required spare devices in case one is lost, damaged, didn’t charge etc, and the person to maintain said spares and ensure that they work, and the occasional cancelled service when all of that fails and a driver rightly refuses a train because they’ve not read their notices. Sometimes a bit of paper is the best way. It isn’t very trendy, but it very rarely breaks!

I hope lots of daft conversations like this, aren’t going to be the main result of what seems to be effectively letting the local council run the railway.

 

[43066]

Yes we still use fax machines.

There is no agreement between Unions and Northern to communicate via e mail.

To get an agreement, a productivity deal needs to be agreed.

Fax machines have zero bearing on delays and cancellations.

Presumably the daily sheets and job cards are sent to the depots by email and printed out locally by an admin person, though? That’s how it works where I am.

Drivers access the sheets via WhatsApp, and the union rep sends them as soon as he receives them (ie as soon as they’re published, as he’s on the relevant distribution list). There is no officially agreed method to send direct to drivers, as we don’t have work devices, but the arrangements work in practice.

 

[Belperpete]

To be fair though, most office printers now allow you to scan an item to an email address, and even save the address in the printer

Our office printers also allowed you to scan and send as a fax, or to receive a fax and print it. You also got a printed confirmation that it had been received at the other end (or a printed warning that it had failed).

 

[Bald Rick]

Generally tech changes of the type being discussed require negotiation.

Maybe for drivers and some other grades. But not for most of the railway. There was no negotiation about introducing laptops, or Microsoft outlook, or iphones, or Microsoft teams, or a comprehensive change to how all HR matters are recorded, (etc etc) where I am. All of which changed my job, and those of tens of thousands of others. Consulted, yes, and some changes made through consultation, but not negotiated.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Which, if any, TOCs have stopped using fax machines?

West Mids no longer use them as most physical phone lines have been deactivated. All calls are done over VOIP. I believe this change was the reason to get rid of the fax machines due to cost

 

[Moonshot]

Presumably the daily sheets and job cards are sent to the depots by email and printed out locally by an admin person, though? That’s how it works where I am.

Drivers access the sheets via WhatsApp, and the union rep sends them as soon as he receives them (ie as soon as they’re published, as he’s on the relevant distribution list). There is no officially agreed method to send direct to drivers, as we don’t have work devices, but the arrangements work in practice.

Yes that's how it works here I think.

 

[TUC]

Wrong. Rostering on the railway still requires a good deal of human input, the same is the case in the airline sector (based on knowing people who work in it).

It's a combination of both. IT will save a lot of time in coming up with several different permutations of optimal rosters, to which human judgment can then be applied. It still saves time.

 

[Belperpete]

Presumably the daily sheets and job cards are sent to the depots by email and printed out locally by an admin person, though? That’s how it works where I am.

By email to who? To the admin person? What happens when that admin person goes on leave? And the stand-in goes off sick? Wouldn't it be so much simpler to just send them to a device at the relevant location that instantly printed them out? Something like a fax machine, say.