South Wales 'Metro' updates

[John R]

What's the likelihood of that happening?

Pretty low in the next few years. Hence there is no current plan to run more than 2tph via Fairwater.

 

[positron]

What's the likelihood of that happening?

Well the basic option of adding a small section of extra track (plus associated signalling changes) which would enable 4tph on the city line, I think was estimated at costing £20m. I suspect that's all but guaranteed to happen. Especially if the Cardiff central enhancements project gets funded.

The grade separation that would be needed for more intensive services (such as cross rail to NW cardiff) would obviously be more costly and less likely without substantial funding.

 

[AdamWW]

Well the basic option of adding a small section of extra track (plus associated signalling changes) which would enable 4tph on the city line, I think was estimated at costing £20m. I suspect that's all but guaranteed to happen. Especially if the Cardiff central enhancements project gets funded.

The grade separation that would be needed for more intensive services (such as cross rail to NW cardiff) would obviously be more costly and less likely without substantial funding.

But presumably 4 tph on the City Line would mean more trains from the Valleys taking the long way round.

Is that really what TfW want? Their main aim seems to be to improve links to the Valleys not to improve services within Cardiff.

 

[positron]

But presumably 4 tph on the City Line would mean more trains from the Valleys taking the long way round.

Is that really what TfW want? Their main aim seems to be to improve links to the Valleys not to improve services within Cardiff.

Well there's currently planned to be 2tph that have to reverse at Cardiff central. I think tfw would much prefer to send them up the city line then to waste platform capacity with a reversal.

 

[MikePJ]

Well there's currently planned to be 2tph that have to reverse at Cardiff central. I think tfw would much prefer to send them up the city line then to waste platform capacity with a reversal.

Yeah - I'd expect to see Treherbert trains go round the City line (Treherbert-Queen St-Central-City Line-Treherbert) rather than reverse as they do at present.

AdamWW is correct that the aim of the Metro is to improve connections between Cardiff and the Valleys - that's the economic justification for the investment. Improvements within Cardiff are very much secondary to that, as folks in Cardiff already have many more options to travel around the city.

 

[AdamWW]

Improvements within Cardiff are very much secondary to that, as folks in Cardiff already have many more options to travel around the city.

I think actually quite a lot of stations in the Valleys have a more frequent bus service into Cardiff than there is for some stations within Cardiff.

 

[positron]

So has there actually been any progress on electrifying the Rhymney line, not to mention the missing passing loop up north in the valley. It would seem good at least to electrify to hengoed or even Llanbradach to show some progress.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Nov 2024 ==

Any updates on Ynyswen too, seems to have gone rather quiet on when that's actually going to reopen. I saw photos from September that seemed to show the steps being installed so I'm guessing they've finished the platform now?

 

[Snow1964]

New TfW press release on electric trains

17 Nov 2024​

Electric ‘tri-mode’ trains will be introduced to passenger services for the first time in the UK today (18 Nov) as part of the South Wales Metro.

They will be introduced on the Valley lines in South Wales for the first time ever signifying a huge moment in the delivery of the next phase of the South Wales Metro.

They will enter passenger service first on the Merthyr and Aberdare lines, followed by the Treherbert line. In a phased introduction, they will replace TfW’s older trains, with fourteen set to be in service by Spring next year (2025).

Transport for Wales has already introduced sixty-five brand-new trains and seven premier class MK4 trains to the Wales and Borders network over the last two years as part of their £800 million investment into new trains.

Built by leading manufacturer Stadler, the new Class 756 Fast Light Intercity and Regional Trains (FLIRTs) will be powered by the recently installed overhead electrified wires, which carry 25,000V.

These transformative ‘tri-mode’ trains are the first in the UK that can use diesel or battery on sections of railway track where there are no overhead wires.

First electric trains to be introduced to South Wales Metro

Electric ‘tri-mode’ trains will be introduced to passenger services for the first time in the UK today (18 Nov) as part of the South Wales Metro.

news.tfw.wales

 

[Envoy]

Note that in the press release, it states that it will be late 2025 that the tram-trains will come into operation thus freeing up the 756’s for the Rhymney to coast route. It is very disappointing that it is taking so long to get the 398’s into service.

 

[Markdvdman]

It is poor as. The 398s were said to come in by May latest, and pushed back yet again! That is over 2 years late.....

 

[CapitalStar378]

New TfW press release on electric trains

First electric trains to be introduced to South Wales Metro

Electric ‘tri-mode’ trains will be introduced to passenger services for the first time in the UK today (18 Nov) as part of the South Wales Metro.

news.tfw.wales

I'm confused as to why it will take several months to put 12 more 756s into service. They haven't recently been delivered, have been testing and on training runs for a long time. Along with the 398s, and the Bay line works, it's all very, very slow and disappointing.

 

[positron]

I suspect the spring is a clever lie. It'll be before then, but spring is when the next batch of 756s (the 3 carriage ones) are due to start using the new infrastructure at coryton and Caerphilly.

So perhaps it's worded to sound like they're continuously doing work rather than having these weird gaps?

They've already had ~~4~~ 3 different units running in passenger service so it won't take long till they have them all out, and then it's just a matter of running more than 2 diagrams.

 

[MikePJ]

Note that in the press release, it states that it will be late 2025 that the tram-trains will come into operation thus freeing up the 756’s for the Rhymney to coast route. It is very disappointing that it is taking so long to get the 398’s into service.

The exact wording is :

“These trains will run along these lines until late 2025 when they will begin to move over to the Rhymney and Vale of Glamorgan lines as the brand-new Tram-Trains enter passenger service. “

The 398s are still likely to start sooner than that implies (June ‘25 is the projected date) but the 756s running on the Rhymney lines is also dependent on the Rhymney electrification being finished, and that’s still quite a way off (EDIT: at the last project update it was programmed for September 2025). TfW also tend to plan quite gradual transitions between different types of rolling stock to avoid mass cancellations if problems are found with the new units once they meet the public.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2024 ==

I'm confused as to why it will take several months to put 12 more 756s into service. They haven't recently been delivered, have been testing and on training runs for a long time. Along with the 398s, and the Bay line works, it's all very, very slow and disappointing.

The electrification on the Coryton and Caerphilly routes was only due to be completed a few weeks ago (and we’ve yet to see any evidence that it’s actually live), so I would expect to see quite a few test runs in the coming months to make sure that it’s robust before trains start using it.

 

[StripeyNick]

They've already had 4 different units running in passenger service so it won't take

I've only noted 3 in passenger carrying service so far......107, 116 and (as of today) 117.

Was there a set swap on Friday at some point?

 

[Lurcheroo]

It is poor as. The 398s were said to come in by May latest, and pushed back yet again! That is over 2 years late.....

I'm confused as to why it will take several months to put 12 more 756s into service. They haven't recently been delivered, have been testing and on training runs for a long time. Along with the 398s, and the Bay line works, it's all very, very slow and disappointing.

TFW have been burned with promising too much in too short a timescale, so they seemed to have moved to saying the latest they expect and if it’s a bit sooner then great!

I think most of the projects are getting towards being 2 years late now.

 

[Snow1964]

TFW have been burned with promising too much in too short a timescale, so they seemed to have moved to saying the latest they expect and if it’s a bit sooner then great!

I think most of the projects are getting towards being 2 years late now.

I think TfW have become wary of over promising.

They have possibly created a different expectation problem too, it sounds like has been big growth in passenger volume where new trains have been introduced, and if they haven't ordered enough going to have to explain why some services are still old trains when they were talking about new trains over last 1-3 years.

Alternatively, could order some more trains, or extra intermediate carriages, but haven't found funds for that so far. Do they have any unexercised options ?

 

[chargesmith]

TFW have been burned with promising too much in too short a timescale, so they seemed to have moved to saying the latest they expect and if it’s a bit sooner then great!

I think most of the projects are getting towards being 2 years late now.

The main issue is funding it as I understand it. COVID did delay things a far bit, but the inflation pressures since 2022 have meant that the Welsh Government (who aren't allowed to borrow money for big infra projects like the UK Gov are) have to run a balanced budget so either have to cut other budgets like health or education, or slow down Metro delivery so it doesn't chip away at the other budgets too much.

 

[Woolos 22]

They have 17 months to have all the units running. As the is a welsh elections in May 2026

 

[AdamWW]

They have 17 months to have all the units running. As the is a welsh elections in May 2026

I'd have thought the 20 mph road speed limits would have far more of an impact on voting choices than how long it takes for new trains to be in service.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I think TfW have become wary of over promising.

They have possibly created a different expectation problem too, it sounds like has been big growth in passenger volume where new trains have been introduced, and if they haven't ordered enough going to have to explain why some services are still old trains when they were talking about new trains over last 1-3 years.

Alternatively, could order some more trains, or extra intermediate carriages, but haven't found funds for that so far. Do they have any unexercised options ?

The New trains are certainly proving to be popular and I think once everything settles down, they could see further growth.

As for the 197’s, I think there should be plenty ordered but they need to be released from other routes to actually run in the intended formations.

If they get to a point more capacity is needed then I personally think more middle coaches to make some of the 2’s into 3’s is a good place to start, but some would need to remain as 2.

One option that could potentially be available and I’ve heard some people say they would like it, is to keep the 158’s for the Cambrian. It doesn’t seem likely however.

 

[positron]

I think it would be politically difficult to order much if any on the CAF side given they'll likely need to be replaced again in the not so distant future because they're diesel only, and also not level boarding.

If TfW do need to order new trains they'd be far better off investing in more stadlers like the 231s. At least that way they can be made into bimodes in future.

I seem to recall there being options for expanding the stadler orders but not sure if they're expired or not.

 

[Lurcheroo]

I think it would be politically difficult to order much if any on the CAF side given they'll likely need to be replaced again in the not so distant future because they're diesel only, and also not level boarding.

If more capacity is needed then adding a few extra units compatible with existing stock will make the most sense (or extending a few sets). Them being diesel only is really neither here nor there. There is an absolute lack of OLE for anything to run on TFW’s routes, outside of the CVL.

Level boarding wasn’t specced because it wouldn’t work basically anywhere on that same network, platform heights are all over the place, with some even having humps installed to save on the costs of raising the platform height.

Perhaps if we saw more OLE erected, such as Wolves - Shrewsbury then You may start to get into the territory where bi-modes could be justified.
To go with that though, do we know of any 2 or 3 car bi-modes currently in UK operation? Many services don’t justify more carriages than that and no one has the cash to be spending large sums on longer Bi-mode sets to run around empty.

TFW’s new timetables will also be reliant upon the Class 197 performance capabilities which, any bi-modes are not likely to be able to keep to on diesel, especially if they were only 2 or 3 carriages.
Ultimately the 756’s are 75mph units and the 231’s are 90mph but do not have the fuel capacity to do the diagrams operated by the 197’s.

Ultimately, So many issues, so little money to rectify them.

This also goes for the loco replacements. It would be great if 93’s could replace the 67’s but their diesel / battery capabilities would be insufficient up the Marches.

 

[positron]

Level boarding wasn’t specced because it wouldn’t work basically anywhere on that same network, platform heights are all over the place, with some even having humps installed to save on the costs of raising the platform height.

Without wishing to go too off topic that's not an excuse not to buy trains at the right height, you can fix platforms over time you can't change trains to be the right height after the fact. Even being close to level is a big step forward. No one will spend the money to fix the platforms when the trains don't fit it anyway.

Also regarding speed the flirts are almost definitely capable of going faster if needed there's just no need to currently so they're probably geared to go slower and use less fuel. Given 197s are only 10mph faster max speed than 231 I doubt it's an insurmountable challenge for stadler.

You also don't help the bcr for electrification projects by buying trains that can never use any future OLE. To then use that as an excuse to buy still more diesel trains is illogical. As a result the only places where electrification makes immediate sense has been narrowed to the swml and nwml (besides the obvious south Wales metro areas) where other companies operate bimodes.

 

[CapitalStar378]

Central to the Bay tram line funding has been confirmed by Cardiff Council and the Welsh Government. Ground works commence in a year.

Wales Online article linked here

 

[positron]

Central to the Bay tram line funding has been confirmed by Cardiff Council and the Welsh Government. Ground works commence in a year.

Wales Online article linked here

I wonder if perhaps the reason for dragging out the bay line upgrade works is to ensure they don't do any work that'll need to be redone soon after. Getting stuff such as the Lloyd George avenue entrance right will be important to not waste money.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Without wishing to go too off topic that's not an excuse not to buy trains at the right height, you can fix platforms over time you can't change trains to be the right height after the fact. Even being close to level is a big step forward. No one will spend the money to fix the platforms when the trains don't fit it anyway.

Also regarding speed the flirts are almost definitely capable of going faster if needed there's just no need to currently so they're probably geared to go slower and use less fuel. Given 197s are only 10mph faster max speed than 231 I doubt it's an insurmountable challenge for stadler.

You also don't help the bcr for electrification projects by buying trains that can never use any future OLE. To then use that as an excuse to buy still more diesel trains is illogical. As a result the only places where electrification makes immediate sense has been narrowed to the swml and nwml (besides the obvious south Wales metro areas) where other companies operate bimodes.

In principle i totally agree.
But in a reality where cost rules over everything, TFW have opted not to spend extra where it is very unlikely to see any benefit as the circumstances to that benefit are out of their control.
Where they have had control, they’ve gone for the full benefit, I.e electrification, 15 minute service intervals and level boarding. All very nice features.

The GA flirts are 100mph but I think they’re fully electric.
Generally lower gearing means better acceleration trading lower top speed.
The 197’s have a 5 speed automatic gearbox giving them good acceleration and a 100mph top speed. The acceleration is what will be key for many of the timetable improvements. There’s few places they will go above 90mph and the 175’s were already capable of that.

The reality again is there is no plan for electrification in wales (not even the fabled North wales mainline in place of HS2), there was no justification for the extra cost and complexity of no-Modes to run for such little time on electric.
What needs to happen, if bi-modes are going to be purchased, is along side it have an actual electrification strategy.

But we already see areas where bi-modes operate more regularly than stretches where TFW services operate and they are not getting electrified any time soon so I really can’t fault TFW for being sensible with their money.

 

[Snow1964]

The GA flirts are 100mph, but I think they are fully electric
Generally lower gearing means better acceleration trading lower top speed.
The 197’s have a 5 speed automatic gearbox giving them good acceleration and a 100mph top speed. The acceleration is what will be key for many of the timetable improvements. There’s few places they will go above 90mph and the 175’s were already capable of that.

Whilst different acceleration between 75mph and 100mph gearing was significant for dc electric motors, doesn't make a lot of difference with ac motors.

Ac motors are smaller and lighter, and lot more powerful if similar size to dc version. The limiting factor is more how much power they are allowed to draw from wires or batteries. Of course if the supply is a diesel-generator that might have power limit too.

 

[I'm here now]

If more capacity is needed then adding a few extra units compatible with existing stock will make the most sense (or extending a few sets). Them being diesel only is really neither here nor there. There is an absolute lack of OLE for anything to run on TFW’s routes, outside of the CVL.

Level boarding wasn’t specced because it wouldn’t work basically anywhere on that same network, platform heights are all over the place, with some even having humps installed to save on the costs of raising the platform height.

Perhaps if we saw more OLE erected, such as Wolves - Shrewsbury then You may start to get into the territory where bi-modes could be justified.
To go with that though, do we know of any 2 or 3 car bi-modes currently in UK operation? Many services don’t justify more carriages than that and no one has the cash to be spending large sums on longer Bi-mode sets to run around empty.

TFW’s new timetables will also be reliant upon the Class 197 performance capabilities which, any bi-modes are not likely to be able to keep to on diesel, especially if they were only 2 or 3 carriages.
Ultimately the 756’s are 75mph units and the 231’s are 90mph but do not have the fuel capacity to do the diagrams operated by the 197’s.

Ultimately, So many issues, so little money to rectify them.

This also goes for the loco replacements. It would be great if 93’s could replace the 67’s but their diesel / battery capabilities would be insufficient up the Marches.

What always confuses me is the lack of Bi modes to work services that use South Wales Main Line. Surely that could be exploited for non diesel trains.

 

[Dai Corner]

What always confuses me is the lack of Bi modes to work services that use South Wales Main Line. Surely that could be exploited for non diesel trains.

Cardiff to Severn Tunnel Junction is only about 21 miles. Presumably it wasn't considered worthwhile procuring bi-modes for such a short stretch.

GWR do use bi-modes for Swansea-Paddington and Cardiff-Penzance, of course. The former would have been EMUs if the electrification plans had been completed and the latter are only there by accident as it was desirable to banish the HSTs to the far South West and the IETs were the only replacement stock available.

Electrifying Ebbw Junction-Ebbw Vale would be a quick win if the politicians decided to find the money.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Central to the Bay tram line funding has been confirmed by Cardiff Council and the Welsh Government. Ground works commence in a year.

Wales Online article linked here

I remember as a child trainspotting at Cardiff General and seeing the trains for Clarence Road depart from Platform 8.