Could Stadler FLIRT trains have been ordered for other franchises, such as EMR, XC?

[Railperf]

Moderator note: Split from

Abellio Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

Hi all. I cant seem to find a thread specifically about these trains so i thought i would start one. I just have a few questions. Where are the trains going to be built and tested? Is it Switzerland? I have heard a few different things about them being built and tested in the Czech Republic...

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Another Gold for the 755/4 fleet at the Modern Railways Spanners. At this rate GA are goiing to need a gallery built to display the awards and trophies theyve won in the last few years.

Wholly deserved too. This is the best fleet of regional trains in the country. It is proof of what van happen when you spend a bit more to buy a quality product and commit to spending the money to maintain them and investing in enough staff and training to do it. By far these are the best regional trains in the country. It's a shame a bi-mode intercity version was not ordered for other parts of the country. It would have been a far better product that the Class 80x

 

[dk1]

Wholly deserved too. This is the best fleet of regional trains in the country. It is proof of what van happen when you spend a bit more to buy a quality product and commit to spending the money to maintain them and investing in enough staff and training to do it. By far these are the best regional trains in the country. It's a shame a bi-mode intercity version was not ordered for other parts of the country. It would have been a far better product that the Class 80x

I concur. We can only dream that the DfT & XC would look at ordering a fleet of tri-modes for their network.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

I concur. We can only dream that the DfT & XC would look at ordering a fleet of tri-modes for their network.

And EMR order them for replacement of their 158.. we seem to be at a standstill at the moment of not wanting to order anything that's not electric or battery, this is actually increasing climate change as new engines are far more efficient

 

[dk1]

And EMR order them for replacement of their 158.. we seem to be at a standstill at the moment of not wanting to order anything that's not electric or battery, this is actually increasing climate change as new engines are far more efficient

Seems as far away as ever with a refresh agreed for the EMR158 fleet but could be worse if they were being refurbished I suppose.

 

[LowLevel]

Seems as far away as ever with a refresh agreed for the EMR158 fleet but could be worse if they were being refurbished I suppose.

I'll be stunned if they are replaced by anything other than a 170 cascade from a replacement project elsewhere with a plan for the 170s to see service until 2040.

 

[dk1]

I'll be stunned if they are replaced by anything other than a 170 cascade from a replacement project elsewhere with a plan for the 170s to see service until 2040.

It would make sense I suppose.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Is it confirmed that a 125mph bi-mode FLIRT would be available?

 

[Trainbike46]

Is it confirmed that a 125mph bi-mode FLIRT would be available?

Stadler was one of the bidders for the EMR contract that was won by the 810s, so they certainly are offering something 125mph bimode for the UK

 

[Sorcerer]

Is it confirmed that a 125mph bi-mode FLIRT would be available?

Stadler could easily built a 125mph capable FLIRT. The SMILE/Giruno is 155mph capable and I don't think a bi-mode unit or power pack is beyond Stadler's capabilities.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[stevieinselby]

Stadler could easily built a 125mph capable FLIRT. The SMILE/Giruno is 155mph capable and I don't think a bi-mode unit or power pack is beyond Stadler's capabilities.

The Norwegian FLIRT is already running at 200km/h, albeit only as an electric train – but given that the traction motors will be the same whether it's electric or bi-mode, I can't see any reason why they couldn't fit diesel generators that could power the train to 125mph. Sure, it might need a bigger thrash cupboard, but that shouldn't be a problem!

 

[TheWierdOne]

The Norwegian FLIRT is already running at 200km/h, albeit only as an electric train – but given that the traction motors will be the same whether it's electric or bi-mode, I can't see any reason why they couldn't fit diesel generators that could power the train to 125mph. Sure, it might need a bigger thrash cupboard, but that shouldn't be a problem!

Could always just have more than one power pack module to spread the weight out

 

[stevieinselby]

Could always just have more than one power pack module to spread the weight out

Potentially – one large diesel generator is (I believe) more efficient at generating power than two small ones, so you would have to weigh up the choice between better energy efficiency (ie fuel consumption) vs weight distribution (and wear-and-tear on track) and potentially redundancy enabling trains to continue in the event of the failure of one generator. I will leave it to people who know a lot more than I do about the cost, impact and likelihood of those factors!

 

[stuu]

How much non-electrified miles of 125mph track is there now? Isn't it just Birmingham-Derby?

 

[stevieinselby]

How much non-electrified miles of 125mph track is there now? Isn't it just Birmingham-Derby?

Yes there's about 30 miles of 125mph running between Birmingham and Derby, plus another 10 miles or so at 110mph between Derby and Chesterfield.
By my calculations, running at 100mph on those sections would cost maybe 2–3 minutes for trains not stopping at Tamworth, and less for those that do.

 

[signed]

The best way to go about would be a full bulk order for the whole country and who need them, but I doubt both the DfT would be interested and whether Stadler, which is much more of a low-volume specialized stock manufacturer, can churn the numbers on their non-standard UK platform.

 

[stuu]

Yes there's about 30 miles of 125mph running between Birmingham and Derby, plus another 10 miles or so at 110mph between Derby and Chesterfield.
By my calculations, running at 100mph on those sections would cost maybe 2–3 minutes for trains not stopping at Tamworth, and less for those that do.

So perhaps 110mph on diesel is all that would be needed. The 755s will have been tested to that speed already so it shouldn't be too difficult to get to 110mph in service

 

[Trainbike46]

Potentially – one large diesel generator is (I believe) more efficient at generating power than two small ones, so you would have to weigh up the choice between better energy efficiency (ie fuel consumption) vs weight distribution (and wear-and-tear on track) and potentially redundancy enabling trains to continue in the event of the failure of one generator. I will leave it to people who know a lot more than I do about the cost, impact and likelihood of those factors!

The thrash cupboards of the 755s have 4 gensets (for the /4s), or 2 gensets (for the /3s)

 

[saismee]

The thrash cupboards of the 755s have 4 gensets (for the /4s), or 2 gensets (for the /3s)

Adding on - with the inclusion of an aisle, there'd be no space for bigger engines, just an extra two (which would add a lot of weight).
Maybe a FLIRT with a formation such as DMSO-PTSO-PP-MSO-MSOW-PP-TFO-DMFO would've been good, possible with one of the middle coaches removed (if too long with both power packs). Keeps relatively similar balance of first to stand class accomodation, plus a bit of wheelchair space too (should really be a requirement, especially on trains with level boarding as thats the biggest hurdle.

 

[cactustwirly]

So perhaps 110mph on diesel is all that would be needed. The 755s will have been tested to that speed already so it shouldn't be too difficult to get to 110mph in service

There are 120mph sections on the MML South of East Midlands Parkway

 

[Dr Hoo]

Adding on - with the inclusion of an aisle, there'd be no space for bigger engines, just an extra two (which would add a lot of weight).
Maybe a FLIRT with a formation such as DMSO-PTSO-PP-MSO-MSOW-PP-TFO-DMFO would've been good, possible with one of the middle coaches removed (if too long with both power packs). Keeps relatively similar balance of first to stand class accomodation, plus a bit of wheelchair space too (should really be a requirement, especially on trains with level boarding as thats the biggest hurdle.

I'm struggling to see how this works with the 'multiples of five carriages' (each 23 or 24m long) requirement for EMR units. How long would such a FLIRT be?

 

[saismee]

I'm struggling to see how this works with the 'multiples of five carriages' (each 23 or 24m long) requirement for EMR units. How long would such a FLIRT be?

Rough estimation with the 6x coach + 2x power pack would be about 120 metres, almost exactly the same as the 810s. (assuming 15.7m coach length by subtracting the 755/4 and 755/3 lengths, and 8m power pack length from just guessing).

 

[Sorcerer]

The Norwegian FLIRT is already running at 200km/h, albeit only as an electric train – but given that the traction motors will be the same whether it's electric or bi-mode, I can't see any reason why they couldn't fit diesel generators that could power the train to 125mph. Sure, it might need a bigger thrash cupboard, but that shouldn't be a problem!

Oh yes, that's right, a 125mph FLIRT already exists! I tend to forget just how good Stadler trains actually are, and if a bi-mode 125mph unit can be introduced in the UK then it will truly set a new standard for InterCity travel.

 

[Pete_uk]

You could always put a large engine in a carriage that sits at both the front and back of the train. It would have the drivers cab and a bit of space for staff.
The carriages would sit between the two power units.

 

[dk1]

You could always put a large engine in a carriage that sits at both the front and back of the train. It would have the drivers cab and a bit of space for staff.
The carriages would sit between the two power units.

Not sure if us drivers would appreciate the noise/vibration in the same vehicle.

 

[JamesT]

Oh yes, that's right, a 125mph FLIRT already exists! I tend to forget just how good Stadler trains actually are, and if a bi-mode 125mph unit can be introduced in the UK then it will truly set a new standard for InterCity travel.

Though that will be in a train built to European loading gauge. It’s not necessarily a done deal that the same can occur in a UK-spec train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure if us drivers would appreciate the noise/vibration in the same vehicle.

I guess you on GA are used to driving in relative silence, but most other non-electric TOCs have cabs in vehicles with engines, be they locomotives or underneath, so it'd be hard for those drivers to really complain.

 

[Dr Hoo]

You could always put a large engine in a carriage that sits at both the front and back of the train. It would have the drivers cab and a bit of space for staff.
The carriages would sit between the two power units.

Can you be clearer what you mean by ‘in a carriage’? Given the general challenges of short platforms and platform sharing on EMR and XC routes we really need rolling stock that makes optimal use of train length for passengers.

Anything with ‘power cars’ or the shorter FLIRT ‘power packs’ tends to go against that. Under-floor equipment, whether transformers, batteries or diesel engines, makes it very hard to achieve level boarding. It’s a very hard trade-off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anything with ‘power cars’ or the shorter FLIRT ‘power packs’ tends to go against that. Under-floor equipment, whether transformers, batteries or diesel engines, makes it very hard to achieve level boarding. It’s a very hard trade-off.

A possible trade-off is to have only the vehicles with the wheelchair spaces as low floor. That's not uncommon in mainland Europe. You then don't have engines on those vehicles.

 

[JamesT]

Can you be clearer what you mean by ‘in a carriage’? Given the general challenges of short platforms and platform sharing on EMR and XC routes we really need rolling stock that makes optimal use of train length for passengers.

Anything with ‘power cars’ or the shorter FLIRT ‘power packs’ tends to go against that. Under-floor equipment, whether transformers, batteries or diesel engines, makes it very hard to achieve level boarding. It’s a very hard trade-off.

It's fairly clearly a harking back to the 'golden age' of the HST. Which are 'proper' trains unlike multiple units.