Northern Still Using FAX Machines

[LAX54]

Just as when the signaller is talking to a driver, which would probably take longer than typing the message out.

If I recall, typing in and sending a message on the GSMR is not the easiest thing in the world, I know many Signallers, who just gave up, and called the driver...'Contact Signaller' and spoke to him, this also ensures he has understood, as he repeated it back.

 

[43066]

On a screen, looking very much like that on a mobile device. The driver does, of course, need to look out for obstacles or trespassers etc.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Nov 2024 ==


So they need a 'dark mode'?

But it’s not a mobile device, it’s a specifically designed DMI. That has no bearing on electronic devices in the cab being used under conventional signalling and it’s bizarre that you’d conflate the two (again showing a lack of knowledge).

I see you’ve moved on to telling a signaller how to do their job, and even redesigning signal boxes. I’m not going to be engaging any further.

 

[mpthomson]

If it affects the efficiency which which my taxes are spent, or the price of my train tickets, or the quality/reliability of the service I get, I very much care!

Let's take the example of the NHS. Let's imagine a paper based system that takes 12 hours to get data from point A to point B. In the past the system has worked and was pretty much as efficient as it could be. Now though, due to technological advances, there's a system that can do the same job in only 2 hours. Technically the paper-based system still works. Nothing has changed, the staff are familiar with it. But it would be crazy to accept what is now an effective 10-hour delay in data processing because that could mean the difference between life and death for someone. (This is just an example, I'm not claiming the railway systems under discussion are life critical)

There are many, many reasons across many, many domains (logistical, economic, political, ethical, security) for why you might want to improve or replace a "working" system.

I'm a senior healthcare manager. One example of this is is provision and administration of meds. Moving over to electronic prescribing (as opposed to someone having to go to pharmacy or sending a fax, as still happened until recently) and adminitration using iPads/ phones has meant dramatically reduced meds errors by nurses, far better stock control of medications by the pharmacy provider as they can tell in real time what needs to be ordered, quicker delivery (as the system orders it and it just appears without someone going to let them know and waiting for the order to be fulfilled, taking them away from the ward) and a much improved experience for remote prescribing for both nurses and doctors out of hours. Medication alerts are now also promulgated electronically via this sytem meaning that staff receive the alerts far faster and can act on them if needed. There are literally no downsides. The system also prints off a paper prescription chart for the rare occasions that it's offline.

Despite the claims that older staff struggle to use these systems we have a significant number of nurses still working part time into their early 70s to top up pensions etc, none of these had any issues understanding and implementing the 30 minute training package that came with it, nor did they expect to be paid extra to learn how to use it.

 

[Cowley]

I think 15 pages in we’ve probably covered everything for now so that’ll do us.

Thanks everyone!

 

[father_jack]

Thanks to mods for reopening for me to post this to provide some balance in hindsight.

Rail firm never discussed fax machines with unions despite blaming them for use

Under-fire train company bosses who blamed rail unions for the use of fax machines have never spoken to them about modernising their technology, it…

www.theboltonnews.co.uk

Northern never discussed fax machines with unions despite usage blame .
Under-fire train company bosses who blamed rail unions for the use of fax machines have never spoken to them about modernising their technology, it has emerged. Northern Trains' managing director Tricia Williams told an emergency meeting in October the firm could not get rid of the 1980s technology without trade union agreement.

But a Freedom of Information (FOI) request has revealed the firm has not actually asked rail unions about stopping the use of the machines.

In the FOI, Northern was asked if it had carried out any discussions with trade unions over the use of fax machines since 2020, and for records of the discussions. In response, the train operating company - which has been run by the Department for Transport’s Operator of Last Resort since 2020 - said: “Northern has not had formal discussions with the trade unions on the specific topic of fax machines.

“However, Northern discussed the introduction and use of new and existing technologies as part of pay negotiations earlier this year, and also discussed technology with the trade unions in 2021. “These discussions were not minuted and did not result in an agreement on the use of technology for the respective grade groups.” During the emergency meeting on October 30, Northern bosses were grilled by regional leaders about poor performance.

And it was revealed the company still uses fax machines to communicate internally, prompting a backlash by incredulous Greater Manchester Mayor Andy Burnham. Mr Burnham said the company could end its use of fax machines ‘tomorrow’ and its continued use of the machine looked like a “disregard for the travelling public.”

Ms Williams told him the company would not be able to get rid of the machines “without an agreement with our trade unions”.

Another representative for the company said it would ‘get there before we’re forced to’, with fax technology due to be switched off by BT next year. But drivers’ union ASLEF insists it has made agreements with all other rail operators to end the use of fax machines.

Northern, the country’s second-largest operator, is the only operator that still uses fax machines to book time off and discuss cancellations. An ASLEF spokesperson said: “We met with the company in December 2021 on the topic of moving to newer technology.

“The company decided not to continue with these discussions. We’re always ready to discuss using new technology.

“It’s not the union holding up modernisation – Northern is the only company still using fax machines, as we’ve made agreements and moved forward with all the other operators. So the ball is in their court.”

A spokesperson for the RMT union said: “When Northern Rail was under private management, their focus was on maximising profit rather than investing in modern technologies to enhance the company’s infrastructure.

“RMT has secured agreements to introduce new technologies across the network, including within Northern Rail.

“We thoroughly evaluate all reasonable proposals from management and do not oppose advancements in technology.

“Nonetheless, as with any negotiation, it is vital to ensure that any changes implemented safeguard the terms, conditions and jobs of our members.”

A Northern spokesperson said: “Clearly, fax machines should play no part in the running of a 21st century train operator. “We discussed the introduction and use of new and existing technologies with the unions that represent some of our colleagues as part of pay negotiations earlier this year - and that was further to previous discussions that took place in 2021.

“We have been unable to reach an agreement with the unions but we remain committed to finally consigning this outdated technology to the history books.”

 

[InkyScrolls]

What a surprise! (Not.)

 

[VP185]

Is this still going on!?

Fax machines work, why change? Simple.

 

[dk1]

Is this still going on!?

Fax machines work, why change? Simple.

Exactly. If it’s not broke and all that.

 

[trebor79]

Is this still going on!?

Fax machines work, why change? Simple.

The thing is they often don't!

 

[zwk500]

Is this still going on!?

Fax machines work, why change? Simple.

Exactly. If it’s not broke and all that.

Horses weren't broken in 1825...

 

[dk1]

Horses weren't broken in 1825...

Some were.

 

[GLC]

Perhaps, with modern smartphone technology, a system could be set up where a tablet/smart device could be set up at the fax machine, scan the text using OCR*, and then a phone call could be made to the intended recipient, and leave a voicemail if they don’t answer, with a computer text to speech recording of the message

* Optical Character Reader, a system where a computer reads a character, optically

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Perhaps, with modern smartphone technology, a system could be set up where a tablet/smart device could be set up at the fax machine, scan the text using OCR*, and then a phone call could be made to the intended recipient, and leave a voicemail if they don’t answer, with a computer text to speech recording of the message

* Optical Character Reader, a system where a computer reads a character, optically

That sounds far more complicated than a fax. Would require training for everyone.

 

[Clarence Yard]

BR used OCR for a time with staff timesheets. It didn’t go very well.

Thankfully, direct input to computer came quickly afterwards.

 

[Discuss223]

So it's been reported today that Northern are blaming unions on the reason they still use fax machines in 2024....could this be true or just another example of union bashing?!

I don't see a problem with them using FAX machines. If they work and do the job then why change it for vanity? It's not as though the customer sees this.

 

[dk1]

I don't see a problem with them using FAX machines. If they work and do the job then why change it for vanity? It's not as though the customer sees this.

So true. Why the media or passengers opinion makes any difference has alluded me throughout this farcical debate.

 

[jonnyfan]

Using fax machines makes good tabloid headlines. At the end of the day, fax machines do not affect the day to day running of services at Northern. To think that getting rid of them will see service improvements is farcical. What really is needed is an agreement on how technology can be used to improve efficiency for the company and for front line staff, which would mostly likely see the discontinuation of faxing.