ScotRail recruiting more revenue staff

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting that ScotRail are to take on 69 new staff to collect revenue (their news page online a few days ago) as they will pay for themselves. Why aren't other TOCs doing the same thing?

ScotRail are in a different position to the rest of the UK as aside from very serious cases of fraud (which would need to go via the Police) they effectively don't hvae the ability to prosecute, nor are Penalty Fares possible under Scottish law as things stand. Thus getting more staff out to sell tickets is the only option for them.

English TOCs presumably get more revenue back by way of sending out settlement letters and them being paid.

 

[Indigo Soup]

nor are Penalty Fares possible under Scottish law as things stand. Thus getting more staff out to sell tickets is the only option for them.

I don't believe that's the case, as Penalty Fares aren't legally considered fines. It's my understanding that Scotrail management has generally been generally opposed to them, though I'm not sure of the grounds. I suspect that charging them on the Glasgow suburban lines would clear the Scottish Government's deficit overnight, as many passengers appear to regard the TVM as some kind of modern art piece!

In any case, a penalty fare scheme would still require RPIs to enforce

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't believe that's the case, as Penalty Fares aren't legally considered fines.

Penalty Fares in England and Wales are under a specific legal framework which is absent under Scottish law. Thus legislation would be required to implement them.

It would presumably be possible to do *standard* fares, i.e. make the on-board fare much higher than the "normal" one and pursue non-payment via the civil Courts, though. That approach is used by the Edinburgh tramway - tickets are sold on board but for £10 flat rate single (and this is a legitimate way to buy one if you wish, e.g. if you're in a rush). But standard fares and Penalty Fares are not quite the same thing. Standard fares are more like private parking charge notices, whereas Penalty Fares are more like Council parking fines which do have their own statutory status rather than just being contractual debts.

 

[Buzby]

It would presumably be possible to do *standard* fares, i.e. make the on-board fare much higher than the "normal" one and pursue non-payment via the civil Courts

First Glasgow have placed posters on their vehicles this past year stating that the ‘standard’ fare (for non ticket holders) is £80 and will use civil recovery to get it. I’ve no idea how many people were made to pay this amount, but said poster features a RP staff member in ‘military’ attire - no doubt to emulate the police body armour.

 

[hexagon789]

Penalty Fares in England and Wales are under a specific legal framework which is absent under Scottish law. Thus legislation would be required to implement them.

Incorrect, the 1989 Penalty Fares Act expressly states - 11. This Act extends to Scotland.

That Act is still in force, the 2022 Act merely revises certain provisions and the actual "penalty" charged.

First Glasgow have placed posters on their vehicles this past year stating that the ‘standard’ fare (for non ticket holders) is £80 and will use civil recovery to get it. I’ve no idea how many people were made to pay this amount, but said poster features a RP staff member in ‘military’ attire - no doubt to emulate the police body armour.

ScotRail do and have done this but it isn't common except in very severe cases of high level evasion.

 

[GusB]

I'd be interested to see if any of these new revenue staff make it to my neck of the woods.

I'm not a regular rail traveller, but on most occasions I've found that Scotrail conductors are usually quite quick to do ticket checks shortly after boarding and they're generally very polite and professional. However, depending on the unit formation, it isn't always possible for them to walk the entire train. I don't know how common it is to have a 170/158 combination these days, but there's obviously no opportunity for the guard to walk the entire train in this case. Had I been so minded, it would have been quite easy for me to avoid paying anything.

On one flow, it's £9.20 single, as opposed to £8.40 with Stagecoach. The bus offers a saving of 80p, but it's a far bigger saving if I was to board the train and chance my luck. A journey from the same origin to the next station would cost me £5.80 single as opposed to the £7 bus fare. Even if you have a really diligent conductor/guard there's potential for significant fare evasion if the train is busy.

 

[Scotrail84]

I'd be interested to see if any of these new revenue staff make it to my neck of the woods.

I'm not a regular rail traveller, but on most occasions I've found that Scotrail conductors are usually quite quick to do ticket checks shortly after boarding and they're generally very polite and professional. However, depending on the unit formation, it isn't always possible for them to walk the entire train. I don't know how common it is to have a 170/158 combination these days, but there's obviously no opportunity for the guard to walk the entire train in this case. Had I been so minded, it would have been quite easy for me to avoid paying anything.

On one flow, it's £9.20 single, as opposed to £8.40 with Stagecoach. The bus offers a saving of 80p, but it's a far bigger saving if I was to board the train and chance my luck. A journey from the same origin to the next station would cost me £5.80 single as opposed to the £7 bus fare. Even if you have a really diligent conductor/guard there's potential for significant fare evasion if the train is busy.

Jumping between sets is not something that is encouraged amongst staff because if they jump to the front set that then leaves the back set with no member of staff in it. At least in a non gangway formation if the guard is in the rear set and the driver is in the front theres a member of staff in each set incase of emergencies. Some staff members will jump between sets and there are certain occasions where they have to do it because of passenger assists and short platforms etc.

Regular users of services get to know that there tends not to be anyone in the front so anyone intent of 'chancing' it to evade a fare will likely to see where the Conductor is and then go to the opposite set and hope they don't come through.

Take a trip on West of Scotland services. Fare evasion and altercations with staff attempting to take fares are off the scale. Particularly on services to/from Glasgow Central to the coastal towns and around greater Glasgow etc. New teams of RPO's will certainly help as ScotRail lose a fortune from people who just point blank refuse to pay or deliberately just buy a ticket to the next stop to get them through the barriers. No railcards and child tickets are big problem as well.

People know what they're doing though, some of the tactics are genius.

 

[Buzby]

No railcards and child tickets are big problem as well.

Of the trips I’ve made in the last 3 weeks from Central to Ayr & Wemyss Bay I’ve had all my tickets checked (never asked for a railcard) and not spotted validity challenges.

That said I find it frustrating that I can get my 33% railcard discount but NOT my 50% with Strathclyde Concession as these are only sold at manned ticket offices or on-train. NOT from TVMs, Forum site or other retailers. The reason given is ‘fraud’ yet this could still be the case with other railcards anyway so I believe the policy remains unfair for those who could use the latter but have to pay 20% more.

 

[cactustwirly]

Penalty Fares in England and Wales are under a specific legal framework which is absent under Scottish law. Thus legislation would be required to implement them.

It would presumably be possible to do *standard* fares, i.e. make the on-board fare much higher than the "normal" one and pursue non-payment via the civil Courts, though. That approach is used by the Edinburgh tramway - tickets are sold on board but for £10 flat rate single (and this is a legitimate way to buy one if you wish, e.g. if you're in a rush). But standard fares and Penalty Fares are not quite the same thing. Standard fares are more like private parking charge notices, whereas Penalty Fares are more like Council parking fines which do have their own statutory status rather than just being contractual debts.

If the Penalty Fares regulation is primary legislation it applies to Scotland unless there is specific wording to the contrary

 

[Sirius]

The Act applying in Scotland and penalty fares being enforceable in Scotland aren’t one and the same thing. Private prosecutions are both extremely rare and unusual.

 

[Scotrail84]

If the Penalty Fares regulation is primary legislation it applies to Scotland unless there is specific wording to the contrary

Unenforceable up here, the same with those private car parks that send out fines for overstaying. All companies in England they're unenforceable in Scotland. Its very rare they drag someone through the courts for it because its not worth the hassle.

 

[Jonny]

If the Penalty Fares regulation is primary legislation it applies to Scotland unless there is specific wording to the contrary

The 2022 bit seems to be a statutory instrument, and explicitly applies to England.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022

These Regulations amend the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 (S.I. 2018/366) which make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory...

www.legislation.gov.uk

1. These Regulations—

(a)may be cited as the Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022;

(b)come into force on 23rd January 2023;

(c)extend to England and Wales; and

(d)apply in relation to England.

ScotRail would have a lot of "paperwork" to do to catch up before they were able to issue penalty fares anyway.

 

[MadCommuter]

I had a Club 50 railcard last year. I was never asked to show it.

 

[snookertam]

As mentioned by others above, it’s simply not worth the time and hassle to pursue a court case against someone for non payment of a rail fare in Scotland. Increased revenue staff is their only option, a far more positive way to proceed than taking people to court.

 

[chuff chuff]

ScotRail would have a lot of "paperwork" to do to catch up before they were able to issue penalty fares

This has been brought up many times over the years by staff and there seems in the past at least to be no appetite in scotrail or scottish government for it.

 

[moffatcalum]

Is there any chance that anyone knows if / when these new positions will be advertised and able to apply for. Have not spotted anything (on the scotrail careers page) as of yet since this thread started.

 

[Scotrail84]

Is there any chance that anyone knows if / when these new positions will be advertised and able to apply for. Have not spotted anything (on the scotrail careers page) as of yet since this thread started.

If they have not been advertised already I'd suggest they will be advertised in the new year.

 

[kkong]

I travel regularly on ScotRail and I have never once seen a Revenue Protection Officer ("mobile" or otherwise).

In any case, as has already been mentioned, there is little they could do with anyone found to have either no ticket or an invalid ticket.

Is there any chance that anyone knows if / when these new positions will be advertised and able to apply for. Have not spotted anything (on the scotrail careers page) as of yet since this thread started.

The ScotRail news article referred to in the OP states that these "ticket examiners" and "Revenue Protection Officers" are already in post.

From this month, an extra 69 ticket examiners will be in post...

ScotRail has increased the number of staff dedicated to revenue protection, adding more automatic ticket gate staff, on-train teams, and new mobile Revenue Protection Officers...

 

[moffatcalum]

If they have not been advertised already I'd suggest they will be advertised in the new year.

I travel regularly on ScotRail and I have never once seen a Revenue Protection Officer ("mobile" or otherwise).

In any case, as has already been mentioned, there is little they could do with anyone found to have either no ticket or an invalid ticket.



The ScotRail news article referred to in the OP states that these "ticket examiners" and "Revenue Protection Officers" are already in post.

Thanks to you both, it can't hurt to keep checking over the coming weeks I guess.

To stay on topic I also reckon alot of money is being left on the table (so to speak) on my local line due to the TVMs at smaller stations not accepting cash & regular 170 & 158s coupled up - think the more savvy neds & other folk "chancing it" That said, the conductors do meet seem to be pretty dilligent, just overstretched IMO.

 

[Kite159]

Thanks to you both, it can't hurt to keep checking over the coming weeks I guess.

To stay on topic I also reckon alot of money is being left on the table (so to speak) on my local line due to the TVMs at smaller stations not accepting cash & regular 170 & 158s coupled up - think the more savvy neds & other folk "chancing it" That said, the conductors do meet seem to be pretty dilligent, just overstretched IMO.

Can't you blame those chancers, knowing that the worse possible outcome is being forced to buy the ticket they would have purchased had they been honest? A guard/TE can only do some much and if someone claims they boarded at the last station when the guard knows they didn't (i.e. the last station they were watching for customers and nobody boarded) they will likely sell them the ticket from the last station to avoid arguments

 

[ScotsRail]

I had a Club 50 railcard last year. I was never asked to show it.

Either have I.

I assume that because I buy all my Club 50 journeys in my logged in Scotrail account and then activate the tickets in said app, thats why they don't ask to see the card.

As for the new revenue staff, I think everyone on this forum could give out a list of stations that they should concentrate their resources into to pick up those not paying which shows that this probably won't be a big fix for them.

 

[BlueLeanie]

I had a Club 50 railcard last year. I was never asked to show it.

Is it possible to buy a Club50 ticket without having a Club50 Railcard active on your ScotRail Account?

 

[Bertie the bus]

ScotRail are in a different position to the rest of the UK as aside from very serious cases of fraud (which would need to go via the Police) they effectively don't hvae the ability to prosecute, nor are Penalty Fares possible under Scottish law as things stand. Thus getting more staff out to sell tickets is the only option for them.

English TOCs presumably get more revenue back by way of sending out settlement letters and them being paid.

It doesn't matter where the TOC is based, if they don't have revenue staff they can't issue PFs or prosecute because they won't detect fare evasion. So the OP's question is perfectly valid and not answered by differences in law.

 

[Scotrail84]

Is it possible to buy a Club50 ticket without having a Club50 Railcard active on your ScotRail Account?

No I don't think so but I could be wrong, guards/TE's can also scan, and should scan you club 50 smart card to see if you have an active paid membership.

 

[MadCommuter]

Is it possible to buy a Club50 ticket without having a Club50 Railcard active on your ScotRail Account?

I think so. I never added the railcard to my app.

 

[Buzby]

It certainly used to be, but then it was turned into RFID plastic and would only be issued once you registered your details (almost the same process for the ScotRail card). Like the Strathclyde Concession you can buy a ticket at the booking office but they’ll want to see the card first - I don’t believe they scan it to check validity.

 

[Sirius]

It doesn't matter where the TOC is based, if they don't have revenue staff they can't issue PFs or prosecute because they won't detect fare evasion. So the OP's question is perfectly valid and not answered by differences in law.

Why would anyone recruit staff and train them up to issue unenforceable penalties?

The difference in the application and enforcement of the law is absolutely the issue.

 

[Sonic1234]

Why would anyone recruit staff and train them up to issue unenforceable penalties?

The difference in the application and enforcement of the law is absolutely the issue.

The same reason shops have security guards - to give the image of being tough and scare those who may be considering not paying their fare.

Few people chancing it will know the law. Those absolutely determined not to pay, don't pay anywhere.

 

[Sirius]

The same reason shops have security guards - to give the image of being tough and scare those who may be considering not paying their fare.

Few people chancing it will know the law. Those absolutely determined not to pay, don't pay anywhere.

If Scotrail started handing out unenforceable penalties - essentially intimidating members of the public - it’d be a political stick to bash the government within days. Every “honest” person hit with one would be a story in the papers themselves.

It’s simply impractical. As with “parking fines” in Scotland it’d quickly become understood by the public at large they are unenforceable. You might scam the odd penalty here and there but as you rightly say those determined not to pay will continue to not pay penalty fake or otherwise.

 

[Transilien]

I have noticed groups of around 4 people in purple hi-vis vests on trains from Glasgow to Largs. I have no idea what these people are and they seem to do nothing.