Tyne and Wear Metro unable to run under closed Gateshead flyover

[choo.choo]

Planned service is St James/Airport to Monument. All trains run in/in out of Monument P1 and use the crossover to return north. The logistics of running wrong-line further to/from Central I'm unsure of but you would wreck the frequency as a four-minute turnaround is needed, plus the wrong-line running, plus the time needed to clear before the next train comes in. Monument ensures that a fairly frequent service can be maintained.

On the other side it's South Hylton and South Shields to Heworth.

Ignoring all other impracticalities with running to Central, I wonder if the frequency problem could be mitigated by running only every other train as far as Central and turning it around once the train behind has left Monument. Although you'd have trains approaching the platform at Monument from both directions which sounds like a nightmare!

 

[MotCO]

Yep it's a twin deck dual carriageway with two lanes either carriageway on both decks and it carries the A167 from the Gateshead suburbs down to the Tyne Bridge and A167(M) motorway (which itself is twin deck). Was originally designed to be part of a larger road transport network around the Newcastle/Gateshead area with multiple motorways and bridges which ironically got sacked off in the 70's for the Metro.

More info: https://www.ciht.org.uk/media/8065/newcastle_central_motorway.pdf

Is the road itself closed?

 

[rg177]

Is the road itself closed?

The road itself is indeed closed as are any paths/roads passing under it.

 

[danielnez1]

It looks like the Redheugh bridge needs remedial works too. Part of NR's works car park underneath it on the Newcastle side has been closed off due to spalling concrete.

 

[MetroCar4058]

This was all such an avoidable mess. We’ve know about the issues with these structures for decades, the issues don’t just happen over night. Gateshead Council need to seriously consider how it’s got to this point, and I’m not sure they can just blame DfT for everything. I hope Nexus/their insurers don’t go soft on cost recovery from the council.

 

[DanNCL]

Thinking back to when the Airport flooded and a service was maintained to Callerton Parkway by running a shuttle from Kingston Park on one track using single train working, I wonder if the same could be done on the P2 line between Monument and Gateshead. Potentially making that the temporary 555 diagram to simplify diagramming.

How long until the units that are stuck south of the river need to return to the depot for their routine maintenance. Can the South Shields depot support them all?

The short answer is not very long at all and no it can’t.

In more detail:
How long will vary for each unit depending on how many miles they have left before exam.
17 units are stranded south of the river - 16 Metrocars plus 555004. The light maintenance capacity at Shields is at present 2 Metrocars, though that would increase to 4 if they’re prepared to pause training and move 555004 outside.
Anything that runs out of miles before an exam that Shields can’t do or develops a fault that Shields can’t fix would have to be dumped at Pelaw until it could be moved back to Gosforth. Eventually that’ll be all the Metrocars so a split service isn’t sustainable long term.

Been sent the following picture , can’t find where it came from and can’t copy the text, but it is from the MD of Nexus, saying yeh line is blocked until more thorough controls can be put in place.

If anyone can post the link to the attached picture, be much appreciated.

That looks like the chronicle website.

What is likely to happen to the Metro with the closure of that section, would it just run the lines of St James via Tynemouth to Haymarket(line 1) /Haymarket/Airport or terminate as far as Gateshead? (line 2)

Service pattern tomorrow will be as follows:
Monument - St James via the Coast 4tph
Monument - Kingston Park 4tph
Heworth - South Shields 5tp2h (every 24 mins)
Heworth - South Hylton 5tp2h (every 24 mins)

No service Monument - Heworth because of the flyover. Also no service Kingston Park - Airport for unrelated OHLE issues.

The location of crossovers on the core are between South Gosforth and Ilford Road, West Jesmond and Jesmond, Haymarket and Monument, Gateshead and Gateshead Stadium (unusable because of the flyover issues, and Felling and Heworth. Signalling doesn’t allow eastbound departures from Platform 2 at Felling so trains have to shunt just west of Heworth to turn back.
Monument P1 is signalled for northbound departures, however Central Station P1 isn’t. The result is that the service suspension has to be between Monument and Heworth.

To my knowledge the locations that are signalled for a wrong line departure are as follows:
Kingston Park P2
Regent Centre P2
Jesmond P1
Haymarket P2
Monument P1
Gateshead Stadium P1
Heworth both platforms
Hebburn both platforms
Jarrow both platforms
Bede(?)
East Boldon P1
St Peters both platforms
Sunderland all platforms
Park Lane P2
Shiremoor P2
Tynemouth P2
Manors P1
Monument P3

There may be others I’m forgetting.

sorry to ask but what is NLC and where is it?

Nexus Learning Centre. It’s located just beyond the site of the old South Shields station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2024 ==

This was all such an avoidable mess. We’ve know about the issues with these structures for decades, the issues don’t just happen over night. Gateshead Council need to seriously consider how it’s got to this point, and I’m not sure they can just blame DfT for everything. I hope Nexus/their insurers don’t go soft on cost recovery from the council.

Nexus inevitably will go soft on cost recovery from the council as the deputy mayor for transport, who Nexus are answerable to, also happens to be the long serving leader of Gateshead Council.

 

[danielnez1]

Nexus inevitably will go soft on cost recovery from the council as the deputy mayor for transport, who Nexus are answerable to, also happens to be the long serving leader of Gateshead Council.

I hope the press (and public) keep that in mind.

Also, is there any known issues with the Byker viaduct?

 

[Paul_10]

I think there has been a major line closure to the south of the tyne around 5 days or so in recent years so in the short term I don't think there should be a concern regarding metrocar maintenance.

Also as Dan says, you can maybe just send all the trapped metrocars at absolute crawling pace at some point aswell.

I guess it's also depends where the worst of the damage on the flyover is, is it on the part near or over the metrolines or a fair distance away?

 

[Megafuss]

This was all such an avoidable mess. We’ve know about the issues with these structures for decades, the issues don’t just happen over night. Gateshead Council need to seriously consider how it’s got to this point, and I’m not sure they can just blame DfT for everything. I hope Nexus/their insurers don’t go soft on cost recovery from the council.

Given the leader of Gateshead Council is also the North East Combined Authorty board member and defacto lead on Transport and ergo NEXUS, it's going to get very messy very quickly

 

[800001]

What I do question is, for a fly over which supposedly had been getting monitored for some time due to the condition of it, how do we suddenly in this day and age, get to the day where all of a sudden it is in such a dangerous state that it’s closed with immmesiate effect?
Especially on such a critical piece of road infrastructure!

 

[Snex]

Given the leader of Gateshead Council is also the North East Combined Authorty board member and defacto lead on Transport and ergo NEXUS, it's going to get very messy very quickly

He's nothing to do with Nexus, he's head of the transport for the mayor that's it. Nothing to do with the PTE for 5/7 councils (Nexus).

This was all such an avoidable mess. We’ve know about the issues with these structures for decades, the issues don’t just happen over night. Gateshead Council need to seriously consider how it’s got to this point, and I’m not sure they can just blame DfT for everything. I hope Nexus/their insurers don’t go soft on cost recovery from the council.

Not sure Nexus would be able to do that as it would be just billing itself unless Newcastle / Sunderland / North Tyneside and South Tyneside fancy taking Gateshead Council on but that could turn a bit sour quick (it's who Nexus is ultimately controlled by)

 

[Tramfan]

I think there has been a major line closure to the south of the tyne around 5 days or so in recent years so in the short term I don't think there should be a concern regarding metrocar maintenance.

Also as Dan says, you can maybe just send all the trapped metrocars at absolute crawling pace at some point aswell.

I guess it's also depends where the worst of the damage on the flyover is, is it on the part near or over the metrolines or a fair distance away?

The difference there though is that a major line closure is planned way in advance, meaning that trains not due an exam can be allocated to diagrams working to the south, whereas today the cars south of the river are those that just happen to have been there when the line was shut.

 

[DanNCL]

I hope the press (and public) keep that in mind.

Also, is there any known issues with the Byker viaduct?

No known issues with Byker Viaduct but no doubt that’ll now be monitored very closely. Same will no doubt go for other similar structures like the A1 bridge over the Tyne.

I think there has been a major line closure to the south of the tyne around 5 days or so in recent years so in the short term I don't think there should be a concern regarding metrocar maintenance.

Also as Dan says, you can maybe just send all the trapped metrocars at absolute crawling pace at some point aswell.

I guess it's also depends where the worst of the damage on the flyover is, is it on the part near or over the metrolines or a fair distance away?

It’s if the closure lasts more than a week that it may become an issue.

The area of concern is between the two roundabouts so yes, that’s the bit that crosses the metro line.

There’s also a tall ventilation shaft for the tunnel right next to the flyover.

Given the leader of Gateshead Council is also the North East Combined Authorty board member and defacto lead on Transport and ergo NEXUS, it's going to get very messy very quickly

It’s inconceivable that he can stay on in both roles as it’ll very quickly become a conflict of interest. He’ll need to resign one of them. Or preferably both…

What I do question is, for a fly over which supposedly had been getting monitored for some time due to the condition of it, how do we suddenly in this day and age, get to the day where all of a sudden it is in such a dangerous state that it’s closed with immmesiate effect?
Especially on such a critical piece of road infrastructure!

I drove across the flyover a couple of weeks ago blissfully unaware of how bad it was. Structures don’t normally deteriorate that rapidly so was everyone driving over the flyover recently at risk? Serious questions to be answered by Gateshead Council.

He's nothing to do with Nexus, he's head of the Transport North East / NECA / JTCA or whatever name they're going for this week. There's still seperate currently.

Transport North East, NECA and JTC are all separate things.

Transport North East will eventually take over from Nexus. It is led by Tobyn Hughes, formerly head of Nexus.
Transport North East is answerable to JTC.

NECA (North East Combined Authority) is the devolved administration covering Tyne & Wear, Northumberland and Durham. It’s led by Mayor Kim McGuinness.

JTC (Joint Transport Committee) is a committee of NECA to oversee transport, both public transport and the road network. It’s led by Martin Gannon.
JTC is answerable to NECA.

Gateshead Council is the local authority responsible for this mess. They’re also led by Martin Gannon.
Gateshead Council is answerable to NECA.

Nexus are responsible for the Metro network. They’re led by Cathy Massarella.
Nexus are answerable to JTC.

Ultimately only two people have any power, Kim McGuinness and Martin Gannon. McGuinness has the power to sack Gannon from JTC, something that she may quickly find herself having to do not just to get the situation solved but to save her own career too.

Not sure Nexus would be able to do that as it would be just billing itself unless Newcastle / Sunderland / North Tyneside and South Tyneside fancy taking Gateshead Council on but that could turn a bit sour quick (it's who Nexus is ultimately controlled by)

That’s not how it works anymore. Nexus are funded by NECA. Gateshead Council are also funded by NECA, but Gateshead Council do not directly fund Nexus anymore and no longer have any control over Nexus. Nexus billing Gateshead Council would be comparable to an OLR TOC billing Network Rail for something.

 

[Paul_10]

I wonder if it was a mistake to increase the speed limit in the last day or two given the risk. I do feel if the metrolines do reopen soon, the speed limit will go back down to crawling pace but they have to remove any speed limit between Gateshead and the QEII bridge, that just feel like overkill although I do understand from another members post on here there could be operational reasons why it may not be possible.

If the worst case scenario does play out and the line has to be shut for months then it's going to affect deliveries of any new units also unless they can be transferred by road. I think it's very unlikely that will happen though.

Does anyone know if you can still travel by road West to East and vice versa underneath the flyover, surely if the metrolines are shut because of the risk, the roads have to be too?

 

[DanNCL]

If the worst case scenario does play out and the line has to be shut for months then it's going to affect deliveries of any new units also unless they can be transferred by road. I think it's very unlikely that will happen though.

Does anyone know if you can still travel by road West to East and vice versa underneath the flyover, surely if the metrolines are shut because of the risk, the roads have to be too?

555s could be delivered by road if necessary but they’d have to be split to do so, not an easy task with an articulated unit.

The two roundabouts remain open for east-west traffic but the section of Sunderland Road underneath the flyover is closed, to access the rest of Sunderland Road you’ve now got to go via the roundabout at the bottom of Old Durham Road.

You can still join the A167 south at the Old Durham Road roundabout, and the A167 north at the Felling Bypass roundabout. It’s only between the two roundabouts that’s completely shut.

Pedestrians can cross at the two roundabouts but not anywhere else.

 

[Gostav]

What I do question is, for a fly over which supposedly had been getting monitored for some time due to the condition of it, how do we suddenly in this day and age, get to the day where all of a sudden it is in such a dangerous state that it’s closed with immmesiate effect?
Especially on such a critical piece of road infrastructure!

Street View of Gateshead · Google Maps

maps.app.goo.gl

Just quick checked in Google Street View, there are many concrete damages can be seen with reinforcements exposed and some holes appear to have existed for more than a decade.
I think the engineers kept monitoring until they noticed the collapses started to become more frequent.

 

[Jonny]

Street View of Gateshead · Google Maps

maps.app.goo.gl

Just quick checked in Google Street View, there are many concrete damages can be seen with reinforcements exposed and some holes appear to have existed for more than a decade.
I think the engineers kept monitoring until they noticed the collapses started to become more frequent.

That's one of the two possible locations for the crossing, cross-checking with other maps including https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/54.960827/-1.598371 , this leads to https://maps.app.goo.gl/r1M7WXX5TN8NxKce9 might be the point where the Metro Line passes underneath. There is also what could well be a vertical vent tunnel next to the OpenStreetMap crossing point (so it makes more sense).

Whichever place it is, perhaps a temporary fix could be packing/supports so that the risk to the Metro from a sudden flyover fall (presumably from a shockwave) is ameliorated to near enough zero as makes no odds.

 

[inanis]

Will the service suspension because of the flyover issue affect whether the 555 goes out in passenger service today?

 

[Snex]

No known issues with Byker Viaduct but no doubt that’ll now be monitored very closely. Same will no doubt go for other similar structures like the A1 bridge over the Tyne.


It’s if the closure lasts more than a week that it may become an issue.

The area of concern is between the two roundabouts so yes, that’s the bit that crosses the metro line.

There’s also a tall ventilation shaft for the tunnel right next to the flyover.


It’s inconceivable that he can stay on in both roles as it’ll very quickly become a conflict of interest. He’ll need to resign one of them. Or preferably both…


I drove across the flyover a couple of weeks ago blissfully unaware of how bad it was. Structures don’t normally deteriorate that rapidly so was everyone driving over the flyover recently at risk? Serious questions to be answered by Gateshead Council.


Transport North East, NECA and JTC are all separate things.

Transport North East will eventually take over from Nexus. It is led by Tobyn Hughes, formerly head of Nexus.
Transport North East is answerable to JTC.

NECA (North East Combined Authority) is the devolved administration covering Tyne & Wear, Northumberland and Durham. It’s led by Mayor Kim McGuinness.

JTC (Joint Transport Committee) is a committee of NECA to oversee transport, both public transport and the road network. It’s led by Martin Gannon.
JTC is answerable to NECA.

Gateshead Council is the local authority responsible for this mess. They’re also led by Martin Gannon.
Gateshead Council is answerable to NECA.

Nexus are responsible for the Metro network. They’re led by Cathy Massarella.
Nexus are answerable to JTC.

Ultimately only two people have any power, Kim McGuinness and Martin Gannon. McGuinness has the power to sack Gannon from JTC, something that she may quickly find herself having to do not just to get the situation solved but to save her own career too.


That’s not how it works anymore. Nexus are funded by NECA. Gateshead Council are also funded by NECA, but Gateshead Council do not directly fund Nexus anymore and no longer have any control over Nexus. Nexus billing Gateshead Council would be comparable to an OLR TOC billing Network Rail for something.

Thanks for clearing it up a bit better. It's a mess, way too many layers currently, if you ask me but that's another thread.

Street View of Gateshead · Google Maps

maps.app.goo.gl

Just quick checked in Google Street View, there are many concrete damages can be seen with reinforcements exposed and some holes appear to have existed for more than a decade.
I think the engineers kept monitoring until they noticed the collapses started to become more frequent.

Pillar 9 is the bad one btw, you'll see the numbers on each pillar if you go on the Southbound Carriageway.

The round building is a ventilation shaft aswell so the Metro runs directly under it pretty much.

Someone on another forum mentioned that the ventilation shaft being so close might be part of the problem aswell.

 

[DanNCL]

Thanks for clearing it up a bit better. It's a mess, way too many layers currently, if you ask me but that's another thread.


Pillar 9 is the bad one btw, you'll see the numbers on each pillar if you go on the Southbound Carriageway.

The round building is a ventilation shaft aswell so the Metro runs directly under it pretty much.

Someone on another forum mentioned that the ventilation shaft being so close might be part of the problem aswell.

Fully agreed.

The ventilation shaft is between pillars 8 and 9, if pillar 9 is the problem then no wonder the metro is shut, any collapse would be right on top of the tunnels.

This is where pillar 9 is on street view. Pan the camera around and you’ll see the ventilation shaft. https://maps.app.goo.gl/UYqnbUmuNRAg1Tf86?g_st=ic

A short term emergency measure could be to take down the flyover just between pillars 7 and 10, that would remove the problem pillar and it would remove the section of flyover that’s in close proximity to the metro tunnels. That would allow the metro to reopen, once the rubble was cleared if the rest of the structure was safe then the road underneath it could reopen too. Worry about demolishing the rest of it later.

 

[edgar13]

Will the service suspension because of the flyover issue affect whether the 555 goes out in passenger service today?

Can confirm it is still running but don't think it's following the times on the diagram. Saw it at South Gosforth going towards Whitley Bay at 0823.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I drove across the flyover a couple of weeks ago blissfully unaware of how bad it was. Structures don’t normally deteriorate that rapidly so was everyone driving over the flyover recently at risk? Serious questions to be answered by Gateshead Council.

Structures can and do deteriorate that quickly, especially given the heavy rain and winds in recent weeks.

Structures can, and often do, very quickly go from being the right side of safe to being the wrong side of safe. Happens all the time. Look at Hammersmith Bridge.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Structures can and do deteriorate that quickly, especially given the heavy rain and winds in recent weeks.

Structures can, and often do, very quickly go from being the right side of safe to being the wrong side of safe. Happens all the time. Look at Hammersmith Bridge.

And the Forth Road Bridge, which had to be closed at very short notice a few years ago.

 

[DunsBus]

And the Forth Road Bridge, which had to be closed at very short notice a few years ago.

Hammersmith's problems first arose back in 1984, when an overloaded HGV crossed the bridge and knackered the bearings on the Barnes side.
It's never been right since then.

 

[DanNCL]

I understand that Nexus are planning to add some sort of reinforcement to the tunnels underneath the flyover and then reopening the tunnels regardless what Gateshead Council choose to do.

Hate to say it but maybe, just maybe, Nexus might actually be right for once!

Structures can and do deteriorate that quickly, especially given the heavy rain and winds in recent weeks.

Structures can, and often do, very quickly go from being the right side of safe to being the wrong side of safe. Happens all the time. Look at Hammersmith Bridge.

Hammersmith bridge has had issues for decades.

Concrete structures deteriorate over time, the reaction from the council is as if the flyover is at imminent risk of collapse even without anything on it. If that were genuinely how bad it is then there’s no way that structure was realistically still safe last week.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Hammersmith bridge has had issues for decades.

Concrete structures deteriorate over time, the reaction from the council is as if the flyover is at imminent risk of collapse even without anything on it. If that were genuinely how bad it is then there’s no way that structure was realistically still safe last week.

The flyover has had issues for years- that's why the flyover has been monitored as heavily as it has been. The council haven't been doing nothing. The monitoring found it had deteriorated faster than they expected. I'm sure that Storm Darragh had something to do with that.

Safety really is binary- safe or not safe. As we saw with Hammersmith Bridge, the Forth Road Bridge, and also parts of the Westway. One day they were safe, the next day they weren't.

Clearly something else has been picked up on the monitoring as it was very sudden; they were OK with a speed restriction.

 

[The exile]

Structures can and do deteriorate that quickly, especially given the heavy rain and winds in recent weeks.

Structures can, and often do, very quickly go from being the right side of safe to being the wrong side of safe. Happens all the time. Look at Hammersmith Bridge.

Or indeed the Carolabruecke in Dresden. Maybe no coincidence that the initial report on that came out within the last 7 days.

 

[CL395]

Kim McGuinness now sharing the works may take up to 2 weeks

Gateshead Flyover and Metro closure update with services set to be off into 2025

Tyne and Wear Metro services across the Tyne look set to remain suspended until early in the new year, as Gateshead Council has been told that it must get on with emergency flyover repairs now

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

 

[ModernRailways]

Kim McGuinness now sharing the works may take up to 2 weeks

Gateshead Flyover and Metro closure update with services set to be off into 2025

Tyne and Wear Metro services across the Tyne look set to remain suspended until early in the new year, as Gateshead Council has been told that it must get on with emergency flyover repairs now

www.chroniclelive.co.uk

If this is to be the case then people should be prepared for a full service suspension south of the Tyne or at the very least for service to be reduced either in further reduced frequency or cut short. Two weeks is an awful long time for the fleet stranded to go without a full depot visit.

 

[Winthorpe]

How long is the Metro tunnel under the flyover? Could units needing to go to the depot be winched through the tunnel? (i.e. be dragged through without a driver on board)