Tyne and Wear Metro unable to run under closed Gateshead flyover

[35B]

How long is the Metro tunnel under the flyover? Could units needing to go to the depot be winched through the tunnel? (i.e. be dragged through without a driver on board)

Is the risk to trains, or people on the surface if vibration causes the structure to collapse?

 

[jh64]

How long is the Metro tunnel under the flyover? Could units needing to go to the depot be winched through the tunnel? (i.e. be dragged through without a driver on board)

It's about 1.5km from the bridge over the river to the stadium side tunnel entrance.

 

[Paul_10]

Easy to sit in an armchair position of course but surely having the trains swopped around at 5mph is a better alternative than shutting half the system down. No idea if there is any vibrations that could be felt at that speed but surely it would be virtually non existent.

Find it odd initially the speed limit was 5mph but then it was "safe" to increase that speed to now no trains can run through the affected area.

 

[edwin_m]

How long is the Metro tunnel under the flyover? Could units needing to go to the depot be winched through the tunnel? (i.e. be dragged through without a driver on board)

How would they get the rope through to do hook onto the train, without somebody going with it? Having a train uncrewed and unbraked isn't going to happen either.

 

[ModernRailways]

How long is the Metro tunnel under the flyover? Could units needing to go to the depot be winched through the tunnel? (i.e. be dragged through without a driver on board)

Under the flyover is a small portion, but it’ll likely be the vibrations from the entire tunnel section up to Gateshead from Gateshead Stadium. Winching a train isn’t going to happen, though I would love to see it attempted

Easy to sit in an armchair position of course but surely having the trains swopped around at 5mph is a better alternative than shutting half the system down. No idea if there is any vibrations that could be felt at that speed but surely it would be virtually non existent.

Find it odd initially the speed limit was 5mph but then it was "safe" to increase that speed to now no trains can run through the affected area.

Even with speed restrictions there will be some vibrations, the main problem is what length is the speed restriction. As an example, if you do it from Gateshead to Gateshead Stadium then that’s a large section that’ll incur big delays and would mean it’s easier to just scrap the service off and focus on running either side. Potentially a very slow speed restriction would be good in terms of getting the fleet rotated and to/from Gosforth

As an aside, I’ve been told that two of the units stranded have already failed.

 

[Winthorpe]

How would they get the rope through to do hook onto the train, without somebody going with it?

Good point!

 

[choo.choo]

It's about 1.5km from the bridge over the river to the stadium side tunnel entrance.

Be aware that Google/Apple Maps are generally pretty rubbish when it comes to the exact positions of underground Metro tunnels, I wouldn't be surprised if they just freehand them. OSM is better, but still relies on accurate open data or GPS traces which are difficult to get underground.

This drawing is based on a vent map released by Nexus under FOI some years ago so should be the most accurate map of the tunnels under Gateshead. Flyover shown in red.

 

[duffield]

How would they get the rope through to do hook onto the train, without somebody going with it? Having a train uncrewed and unbraked isn't going to happen either.

Couldn't you rig up some sort of battery powered remote controlled vehicle to pull a lightweight cable through, which could be used to pull a heavier weight cable through? Once you've got one cable through, each metro train you dragged through could pull another cable which could be used to pull a returning metro train back in the reverse direction. That would work on an alternating one in, one out basis. It doesn't sound like rocket science; it's more a question of whether you could sort it out before the line reopens anyhow, and whether alternatives like shipping the trains by road instead or something would be quicker/cheaper/easier.

 

[Winthorpe]

Once you've got one cable through, each metro train you dragged through could pull another cable which could be used to pull a returning metro train back in the reverse direction.

That's what I had in mind. A winch at either end with a cable attached to each end of the unit. One for towing, one being dragged behind.

The tunnel is a lot longer than I thought, and it is not straight.

 

[mad_rich]

This must be a punch in the gut for all the Metro staff who have worked to get the new trains out.

Is there any realistic prospect of Northern operating additional services between Sunderland and Newcastle? At least that would take some of the strain off if Metro has to reduce to a limited shuttle.

 

[duffield]

That's what I had in mind. A winch at either end with a cable attached to each end of the unit. One for towing, one being dragged behind.

The tunnel is a lot longer than I thought, and it is not straight.

Yes, that would mean any remote controlled vehicle dragging the first cable through would probably not be able to be radio controlled, but as it's dragging a cable anyhow you could potentially piggyback a command wire and camera feed on that.

 

[800001]

Easy to sit in an armchair position of course but surely having the trains swopped around at 5mph is a better alternative than shutting half the system down. No idea if there is any vibrations that could be felt at that speed but surely it would be virtually non existent.

Find it odd initially the speed limit was 5mph but then it was "safe" to increase that speed to now no trains can run through the affected area.

Initially the speed restricted was 5km per hour.

 

[choo.choo]

Is there any realistic prospect of Northern operating additional services between Sunderland and Newcastle? At least that would take some of the strain off if Metro has to reduce to a limited shuttle.

Further to this, does anyone know if Northern are able, at a technical level, to accept Pop PAYG on this route like they do on the Northumberland line? Doing so temporarily would be helpful if the infrastructure is there.

 

[DanNCL]

Even if trains could be moved unmanned through the tunnels, would Nexus want to risk the flyover collapsing into the tunnel on top of a Metrocar and thereby destroying it? If there’s a high risk of a structure collapsing you want as little as possible underneath it to make clearing it up quicker and easier.

The flyover is estimated to take 10-14 days to be propped up sufficiently to allow metro to reopen. Remember that estimates made by politicians are often over optimistic…

A full closure south of the Tyne is now looking likely. The question isn’t if but when. It’ll then take time once the tunnels reopen to get the stranded units cycled through Gosforth for reactivation.

This saga is likely to go on for a long time and the only way anything close to a full timetable can be ran in the first week or two after the tunnels reopen is if it were possible to rapidly ramp up 555 introduction.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is there any realistic prospect of Northern operating additional services between Sunderland and Newcastle? At least that would take some of the strain off if Metro has to reduce to a limited shuttle.

Unlikely, Northern don't have that many spare crews and units (if any at all now Ashington has opened) to do it with as far as I'm aware. I think we could see the semi-fast Newcastle - Middlesbrough services have a Heworth call added in on a temporary basis but they only run every other hour and not through the whole day. But that's about all I think Northern would be able to offer to help out.

 

[danielnez1]

Even if trains could be moved unmanned through the tunnels, would Nexus want to risk the flyover collapsing into the tunnel on top of a Metrocar and thereby destroying it? If there’s a high risk of a structure collapsing you want as little as possible underneath it to make clearing it up quicker and easier.

I presume the tunnels are not very deep at the Gateshead section either?

 

[choo.choo]

I presume the tunnels are not very deep at the Gateshead section either?

From the figures I have, the platforms at Central Station are just over 13 metres below street level, and the platforms at Gateshead are about 16m higher in elevation than that. Presumably street level at those two stations either side of the river isn't going to be the same, but it still doesn't sound very deep.

Gradient profile from old Nexus FOI for those interested.

 

[jkkne]

It’s a real real mess, a positive is it will, hopefully, see the end of Martin Gannon in his role with the council and within transport in the mayors office.

The creaking bus network can barely cope with its current passengers, at least it’s the holidays so school bus drivers are available. Boxing Day with nufc at home doesn’t look too great

 

[HSTEd]

I'm a little confused, would it not be easier to extemporise some sort of road transport solution to allow vehicles to be swapped between north and south of the blockage?

They have been moved in one piece by road before haven't they?

I'd imagine clearing some sort of suitable access point would be easier than trying to move them by rail.

 

[rg177]

The creaking bus network can barely cope with its current passengers, at least it’s the holidays so school bus drivers are available. Boxing Day with nufc at home doesn’t look too great.

There will be plans to adapt the timetable to this (pre-flyover issue the timetable had football extras worked in). The priority at the moment has just been getting a workable standard timetable sorted before the festive stuff is worked on.

 

[800001]

It’s a real real mess, a positive is it will, hopefully, see the end of Martin Gannon in his role with the council and within transport in the mayors office.

The creaking bus network can barely cope with its current passengers, at least it’s the holidays so school bus drivers are available. Boxing Day with nufc at home doesn’t look too great

How is it Martins fault if they have been following advice from the people doing monitoring of the structure?

Post #56 shows council were monitoring it.

 

[Ian Hardy]

Hammersmith's problems first arose back in 1984, when an overloaded HGV crossed the bridge and knackered the bearings on the Barnes side.
It's never been right since then.

An IRA bomb in 1939 and then another bomb 61 years later by the Real IRA in 2000 haven't helped Hammersmith Bridge.

 

[DanNCL]

I'm a little confused, would it not be easier to extemporise some sort of road transport solution to allow vehicles to be swapped between north and south of the blockage?

They have been moved in one piece by road before haven't they?

I'd imagine clearing some sort of suitable access point would be easier than trying to move them by rail.

There’s nowhere to remove them by road from. To get them out you’d have to drag them over the national network, something last done in 1981, and remove from somewhere on the national network for road transport to Howdon.

How is it Martins fault if they have been following advice from the people doing monitoring of the structure?

Post #56 shows council were monitoring it.

Gateshead council were warned many years ago that something had to be done about the flyover sooner rather than later to avoid getting to this point. Gannon chose to do nothing other than monitor it which is the whole reason we’re in this mess now.

In any case it’s inconceivable for him to retain both his council role and his JTC role as there’s a huge conflict of interest, he cannot fight on Metro’s behalf to reopen the line underneath the flyover for as long as he’s defending his own failings on the flyover with Gateshead council as the two are incompatible. And as JTC membership requires a council role, it’s JTC that he’d have to give up (or be sacked from).

 

[800001]

There’s nowhere to remove them by road from. To get them out you’d have to drag them over the national network, something last done in 1981, and remove from somewhere on the national network for road transport to Howdon.


Gateshead council were warned many years ago that something had to be done about the flyover sooner rather than later to avoid getting to this point. Gannon chose to do nothing other than monitor it which is the whole reason we’re in this mess now.

In any case it’s inconceivable for him to retain both his council role and his JTC role as there’s a huge conflict of interest, he cannot fight on Metro’s behalf to reopen the line underneath the flyover for as long as he’s defending his own failings on the flyover with Gateshead council as the two are incompatible. And as JTC membership requires a council role, it’s JTC that he’d have to give up (or be sacked from).

Oh it’s all very complicated

 

[HSTEd]

There’s nowhere to remove them by road from. To get them out you’d have to drag them over the national network, something last done in 1981, and remove from somewhere on the national network for road transport to Howdon.

I might be being silly, but it seems that if you cut down a section of the overhead line at the Maintenance/Training facility at South Shields, you might be able to work a lorry in close enough to crane it onto the track - and then use the battery shunters to get it under the wire.

 

[omnicity4659]

I might be being silly, but it seems that if you cut down a section of the overhead line at the Maintenance/Training facility at South Shields, you might be able to work a lorry in close enough to crane it onto the track - and then use the battery shunters to get it under the wire.

The issue is the battery locos are in Gosforth.

Seems like they’re going to find it easier to have dead units sat in Pelaw sidings until they can be dragged back to the depot.

 

[Killingworth]

The issue is the battery locos are in Gosforth.

Seems like they’re going to find it easier to have dead units sat in Pelaw sidings until they can be dragged back to the depot.

If there were a war on they'd call for volunteers to ever so carefully move the units through the danger zone as required. If it was in Ukraine this would probably be considered a minor inconvenience to be resolved within a very short time.

However it highlights the lack of an interconnecting track anywhere between the Metro and Network Rail, or does it? Running as close to each other as they do between Heworth and Sunderland they could fairly easily be dragged back to Central but old connecting tracks at Benton and at Manors have all been removed.

 

[ainsworth74]

If there were a war on they'd call for volunteers to ever so carefully move the units through the danger zone as required. If it was in Ukraine this would probably be considered a minor inconvenience to be resolved within a very short time.

Well yes they probably would but, er, we're not at war so I'm not entirely sure it's a helpful comparison?

 

[Gostav]

If there were a war on they'd call for volunteers to ever so carefully move the units through the danger zone as required. If it was in Ukraine this would probably be considered a minor inconvenience to be resolved within a very short time.

However it highlights the lack of an interconnecting track anywhere between the Metro and Network Rail, or does it? Running as close to each other as they do between Heworth and Sunderland they could fairly easily be dragged back to Central but old connecting tracks at Benton and at Manors have all been removed.

If they real need, to keep the operation of the metro, a large number of workers should be dispatched and steel frames will be quickly built to temporarily support the bridge deck for temporarily relieve the most dangerous situation.

 

[HSTEd]

The issue is the battery locos are in Gosforth.

Seems like they’re going to find it easier to have dead units sat in Pelaw sidings until they can be dragged back to the depot.

Well doesn't that just mean that the first thing on the lorry is one of the battery locos!

If this lasts a while, won't they run out of trapped units and lose half the system?