Are there any figures for how many people miss trains due to last minute platform alterations?

[chris53]

I know personally of quite a few people who have missed trains due to very late platform alterations, either because they were too late noticing the change or they were unable to physically get to the other platform in time.

This isn't at all scientific of course so have no idea how big of an issue it is but am just curious. Is there any obligation on the part of anyone at all to ensure everyone has managed to change platforms in time?

I once missed one myself due to not being able to get over a footbridge quickly enough.

What about people on advance tickets? Where do they stand?

 

[AverageJoe]

I know personally of quite a few people who have missed trains due to very late platform alterations, either because they were too late noticing the change or they were unable to physically get to the other platform in time. This isn't at all scientific of course so have no idea how big of an issue it is but am just curious. Is there any obligation on the part of anyone at all to ensure everyone has managed to change platforms in time? I once missed one myself due to not being able to get over a footbridge quickly enough. What about people on advance tickets? Where do they stand?

It is a pet peeve of mine that.
I had it recently where I was routed in to a platform that is only accessible by passengers going up narrow steps on to the road, then walking down the street and around a car park to access the other platform which isn’t used that often.

They were stood on the platform I was originally booked in to.

as I approached I used my whistle to get their attention and waved them over, I then spoke to the guard and we waited until everyone had made it.

Probable delayed me a few minutes but saved them waiting an hour for the next one.

 

[Peter0124]

My parents missed their connection at Crewe because their train was replatformed due to late running services infront. So they had to run across the bridge but it was too late.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Me and the missus once missed 2 or 3 Brussel Centraal to Ghent St Pieters trains in succession due to last minute platform changes

 

[DynamicSpirit]

It's really annoying when trains change platform at the last minute (though I suspect in most cases there is a good reason for the change of platforms). But to answer the actual question posed by this thread - I very much doubt that it's possible for any remotely accurate figures to be collated on how many people miss trains because of that - because most people who are affected in that way are unlikely to report it, but will simply wait for the next train (particularly if the next train is only < 10 minutes later [*]), and most platform staff at busy stations are going to have more urgent things to do than go round asking which passengers have missed their train due to a platform alteration.

[*] The only times I can recall that happening to me were for journeys like Waterloo East to London Bridge - where the next train is not likely to be far behind.

btw not quite the same thing - although not too dissimilar: On a few occasions I've missed trains as a result of platform information systems simply stopping advertising a train a couple of minutes before it leaves, despite there still being ample time to get to the train.

 

[Jimini]

btw not quite the same thing - although not too dissimilar: On a few occasions I've missed trains as a result of platform information systems simply stopping advertising a train a couple of minutes before it leaves, despite there still being ample time to get to the train.

That irks me too (TfL, I’m looking at you).

 

[The exile]

btw not quite the same thing - although not too dissimilar: On a few occasions I've missed trains as a result of platform information systems simply stopping advertising a train a couple of minutes before it leaves, despite there still being ample time to get to the train.

It’s not unknown for a late-running train to disappear off the departure screens before the inbound service which forms it has even arrived.

 

[DarloRich]

How would you collect such information?

 

[hux385]

I also wonder whether, in certain circumstances, platform alterations actually cause more harm than good in terms of train delays. The other day at Edinburgh, there was an alteration of a London-Aberdeen service from platform 2 to platform 8 (there was an empty set in plt 2 waiting to go to the depot). However, the catering team then had to transport all their supplies over the footbridge over to platform 8, subsequently delaying the train by roughly 10 mins, meanwhile, the empty train on platform 2 left the station. I know this is a niche example, but there will be plenty of local 'quirks' similar to this in other locations where altering the platform actually results in more of a delay compared to if there was no alteration in the first place.

The main issue is that there is absolutely zero monitoring or regulation around platform changes which results in trains being called or altered last minute, to the disbenefit of older and disabled passengers.

 

[Western 52]

Are platform staff instructed to ensure passengers affected by last minute platform changes actually catch the trains? Some passengers will also require assistance to move platforms, which may take time.

Two locations which are bad for changes are platform 0 at Cardiff Central and platform 3 at Shrewsbury. Both are outside the station barrier areas and walking between them and the rest of the station takes at least several minutes.

 

[londonmidland]

Platforms 10, 11 and 12 at Birmingham New Street have no functioning P.A system for auto announcements, so if a platform alterations takes place on this platform, it has to be announced manually by someone in control or platform staff.

 

[Horizon22]

Platforms 10, 11 and 12 at Birmingham New Street have no functioning P.A system for auto announcements, so if a platform alterations takes place on this platform, it has to be announced manually by someone in control or platform staff.

Are you sure? Pretty sure that was a legal requirement although that may be mitigated by the manual announcements.

As for the title, no there are not figures. Maybe for an individual train here or there, but trying to actively log and collect this across the railway would be almost impossible as someone would have to manually count all the passengers, log it etc etc. Normally it's station staff or a guard who says "oh about 50 people waiting".

Anyway the discussion in this thread very much ties in with the thread here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/commuter-knew-better-than-apps.279737/

 

[WAB]

Are you sure? Pretty sure that was a legal requirement although that may be mitigated by the manual announcements.

Aren't all the announcements at New Street manual, and generally reserved only for service alterations? I know several other major stations have been looking to institute this policy as it cuts down on audio clutter and draws attention to critical information in a timely manner.

 

[Horizon22]

Aren't all the announcements at New Street manual, and generally reserved only for service alterations? I know several other major stations have been looking to institute this policy as it cuts down on audio clutter and draws attention to critical information in a timely manner.

Yes there are fewer auto ones, but normally they are surpressed as opposed to being actually non-functional.

New Street has got to be one of the hardest for platform alterations as one of the busiest through hubs and quite a lot of flexibility at relatively short-notice. Most similarly sized hubs are terminals whereby there is more time to advertise a service and generally people are not waiting on platforms. Reading, Crewe and York are other tricky ones. I would hope station control and signallers have good relationships.

Are platform staff instructed to ensure passengers affected by last minute platform changes actually catch the trains? Some passengers will also require assistance to move platforms, which may take time.

Two locations which are bad for changes are platform 0 at Cardiff Central and platform 3 at Shrewsbury. Both are outside the station barrier areas and walking between them and the rest of the station takes at least several minutes.

Depends how much notice the platform staff are given, if any. This can vary wildly depending on a whole host of circumstances.

 

[WAB]

Are platform staff instructed to ensure passengers affected by last minute platform changes actually catch the trains? Some passengers will also require assistance to move platforms, which may take time.

Two locations which are bad for changes are platform 0 at Cardiff Central and platform 3 at Shrewsbury. Both are outside the station barrier areas and walking between them and the rest of the station takes at least several minutes.

It's generally best efforts, but you can't keep an eye on everyone and it depends what else is happening on the station at the time. Yes, Cardiff and Shrewsbury are particularly problematic.

 

[londonmidland]

Are you sure? Pretty sure that was a legal requirement although that may be mitigated by the manual announcements.

Aren't all the announcements at New Street manual, and generally reserved only for service alterations? I know several other major stations have been looking to institute this policy as it cuts down on audio clutter and draws attention to critical information in a timely manner.

Yes there are fewer auto ones, but normally they are surpressed as opposed to being actually non-functional.

So to answer a few questions here, Network Rail silenced the automated announcement P.A system at Birmingham New Street back in June 2019. Only platform alterations, delays and cancellations are now announced by the auto P.A. However, the system is faulty and has been for a number of years now, so the auto P.A does not play at all on platforms 10, 11 and 12.

Trains and their calling points are not announced unless done manually, which does not happen on a regular basis.

I have message Network Rail regarding this and have received a response from them in the last few minutes. Their response below:

...I just wanted to update you on your complaint.

The station management team has completed their investigation and has sent through the following response.

Thank you for contacting us about the automated P.A system at Birmingham New Street.



We are the largest station outside of London and so not feasible to make announcements for every service. We do try to always announce when there is alterations to a service. Feedback from customer groups say that too many announcements result in them becoming background noise.

We have a new station manager at Birmingham New Street who will review the policies and the guide to appropriately reflect our position. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

We will also review the coverage issues affecting platforms 10, 11 and 12 and aim to communicate any potential fix

 

[Towers]

So to answer a few questions here, Network Rail silenced the automated announcement P.A system at Birmingham New Street back in June 2019. Only platform alterations, delays and cancellations are now announced by the auto P.A. However, the system is faulty and has been for a number of years now, so the auto P.A does not play at all on platforms 10, 11 and 12.

Trains and their calling points are not announced unless done manually, which does not happen on a regular basis.

I have message Network Rail regarding this and have received a response from them in the last few minutes. Their response below:

Is that not illegal on accessibility grounds?

 

[Oxfordblues]

I remember working at Preston Power Signalbox in the 1970s and at busy times with out-of-course running it was often clear several minutes in advance that a platform alteration would be required, especially if the booked platform was occupied by a train awaiting fitters' attention or traincrew relief. Almost inevitably the replatforming decision was only made (from 3 to 1 for example) when the signaller set a route just as the train was approaching. By the time the "Broadcast" was able to announce the change the train had arrived. This often led to a stampede over the bridge and down the subway. Those familiar with the station would position themselves on the bridge or near the subway in anticipation but most passengers were left to scramble across.

 

[chris53]

Where would people stand in relation to having Advance tickets? I missed a train once due to a late platform alteration and my not being able to move fast enough. It wasn't a case of not paying attention, there simply wasn't enough time to get to the other platform. I ended up buying another ticket at a significant cost but should I have asked for assistance and would any assistance have been given? The train left bang on time, being late would have been helpful on that occasion.

How would you collect such information?

I honestly have no idea and suspected that the answer was no but always worth asking a question

 

[londonmidland]

Is that not illegal on accessibility grounds?

Perhaps this might be better in its own dedicated thread but I would have thought not providing announcements because ‘it’s too noisy’ would go against accessibility guidelines and policies.

On Wednesday evening, the platform information was less than impressive on platform level at Birmingham New Street.

There was a points failure in the Water Orton area, which meant that the first stop was Leicester vice Coleshill, Nuneaton etc. It wasn’t until the senior conductor announced this on the train which then passengers were made aware of this.

My train departed from platform 10A (which doesn’t have a functional auto P.A system working). Despite this, there were ZERO manual announcements advertising of the amended calling pattern. Very poor communication.

Perhaps if Network Rail (or shall I say specific person(s) who work at the station) prefer a quieter environment, then the auto P.A should be limited only upstairs in the concourse, where it is, perhaps, less needed here. Silencing it on the actual platforms is completely unnecessary and short sighted, to suit the preferences of few.

 

[sh24]

It would be very difficult to capture, and for anyone to bother would require a customer centric mindset which isn't obviously prevalent.

 

[arb]

Could you collect some data along the lines of how many platform changes were announced within "x" minutes of the train's actual (not scheduled) departure time, for some value of "x" to be determined? I don't know what a sensible value of "x" is, but in the extreme, you could make a reasonable assumption that a platform change announced 30 seconds before the actual departure would lead to a lot of people missing the train, but 30 minutes before the actual departure would not lead to anybody missing it.

 

[yorkie]

I know personally of quite a few people who have missed trains due to very late platform alterations, either because they were too late noticing the change or they were unable to physically get to the other platform in time. This isn't at all scientific of course so have no idea how big of an issue it is but am just curious. Is there any obligation on the part of anyone at all to ensure everyone has managed to change platforms in time? I once missed one myself due to not being able to get over a footbridge quickly enough. What about people on advance tickets? Where do they stand?

You would never get figures for this as there is nowhere this data would be collated.

I am not aware of any obligations to ensure people would make the change, other than it simply being completely unreasonable not to wait for a suitable length of time, however how long would be very variable and subjective depending on the circumstances.

Could you collect some data along the lines of how many platform changes were announced ...

I doubt there is data held on when announcements are made, and what the content is, at least not consistently.

 

[chris53]

Could you collect some data along the lines of how many platform changes were announced within "x" minutes of the train's actual (not scheduled) departure time, for some value of "x" to be determined? I don't know what a sensible value of "x" is, but in the extreme, you could make a reasonable assumption that a platform change announced 30 seconds before the actual departure would lead to a lot of people missing the train, but 30 minutes before the actual departure would not lead to anybody missing it.

In some stations it can take up to ten minutes to get from one platform to another and that assumes a decent level of mobility

 

[185]

One problem we have in the UK is PIS systems seemingly triggered as the train arrives in the platform - once the train enters a section where it is committed to platform X it should automatically trigger the announcement, but doesn't - Liverpool South Parkway is a good example.

TfW / LM train occasionally crosses over onto the the slow lines at Wavertree Jn, but the announcement/ PIS change only occurs as the train rolls into the station. This also happens at several other stations on the south half of the WCML. How easily correctable it is, I don't know.

 

[arb]

I doubt there is data held on when announcements are made, and what the content is.

I was assuming automated announcements, now that most stations (that I use, anyway) seem to have automated all of the passenger information screens and announcements. There must be some data received by the information system to trigger the announcements, so it should be possible to somehow mine this data after the event.

Obviously you couldn't do this for manual announcements.

 

[43066]

You would never get figures for this as there is nowhere this data would be collated.

Is there nowhere that reasons underpinning delay repay claims are collated?

I have no idea whether the information would be publicly available, even if it does exist.

 

[yorkie]

The problem is that missing a train due to a platform alteration is a very obscure reason and I don't think any Delay Repay forms actually have that as an option; it would typically be the case that such claims would be rejected by default and appealed.

That's not to say the data isn't collated internally by (some) companies, but I'd be very surprised (and impressed) if it is!

But even if it was, I believe most people who are entitled to DR compensation don't actually claim it.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

Perhaps this might be better in its own dedicated thread but I would have thought not providing announcements because ‘it’s too noisy’ would go against accessibility guidelines and policies.

It does seem incongruous that NR are allowed to turn off auto-announcements completely at their stations, yet Chiltern are being forced to apply for an exemption from the ORR because their onboard PIS system doesn't handle every single possible combination of stopping patterns that could possibly occur during disruption or engineering work.

(See https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...hiltern-railways-passenger-information-system)

Chiltern Railways was issued with an improvement notice by ORR on 19 February 2024 in relation to its inability to provide visual announcements on all its train services (improvement notice I-240219-02-GJT) and needs to remedy the non-compliance identified. The granting of this exemption would remedy the improvement notice by recognising that in some circumstances Chiltern Railways is unable to provide the correct destination and next stop visual announcements.

 

[43066]

The problem is that missing a train due to a platform alteration is a very obscure reason and I don't think any Delay Repay forms actually have that as an option; it would typically be the case that such claims would be rejected by default and appealed.

That's not to say the data isn't collated internally by (some) companies, but I'd be very surprised (and impressed) if it is!

But even if it was, I believe most people who are entitled to DR compensation don't actually claim it.

Valid points, of course. Very much not my area of expertise! I’ve claimed for DR a couple of times, albeit way less useful on a priv, obviously. I’ve still had the odd tenner and fiver back, though.