Caledonian Sleeper

[Dfatcontroller]

This discussion on ride quality has me thinking, and is CS relevant I think. Obviously there are line speeds and the 92s have their acceleration / deceleration profile, which I imagine through route learning the drivers understand the braking distance to stop at Crewe, Preston, Carlisle etc.

Obviously the sleeper may go at higher speed than timetabled to make up late running etc. Long dwells at various places as often highlighted here.

But is it written down somewhere, X Section at Rugby, the line speed is 40 (no idea, making it up) but you should take it at 20 (no idea, making it up) for the comfort of the 400 people sleeping behind ? Eg you are permitted to travel at the former, but the latter is preferred.

An interesting point of difference as presumably in most daytime passenger trains, you drive according to the stock limitations and any other safety restrictions, but otherwise get from A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible and permitted.

Apologies for any poor terminology - genuine question.

I seem to recall that the service is timed for 60 or 70mph for passenger comfort.

 

[driverd]

This discussion on ride quality has me thinking, and is CS relevant I think. Obviously there are line speeds and the 92s have their acceleration / deceleration profile, which I imagine through route learning the drivers understand the braking distance to stop at Crewe, Preston, Carlisle etc.

Obviously the sleeper may go at higher speed than timetabled to make up late running etc. Long dwells at various places as often highlighted here.

But is it written down somewhere, X Section at Rugby, the line speed is 40 (no idea, making it up) but you should take it at 20 (no idea, making it up) for the comfort of the 400 people sleeping behind ? Eg you are permitted to travel at the former, but the latter is preferred.

An interesting point of difference as presumably in most daytime passenger trains, you drive according to the stock limitations and any other safety restrictions, but otherwise get from A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible and permitted.

Apologies for any poor terminology - genuine question.

There are certain junctions that drivers know ride awfully, and plenty will slow down/take it easy over certain areas to avoid a rough ride. Some operators have mandatory company speed restrictions (TPE being an example) for certain poor bits of track. I suspect GBRF will likely be a case of the former (but, of course, this is at drivers discretion).

I had a similar issue on the night riviera. The drivers swap at Exeter and the difference between the guy putting us to sleep and the one waking us up in the morning was stark - the second driver was absolutely appalling. Insisted on starting off using the straight air brake and throwing everyone out of bed with a lurch at every station.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I seem to recall that the service is timed for 60 or 70mph for passenger comfort.

Historically it was 80mph and checking RTT 1S25 of 10th Jan is shown as timed at this speed

 

[The Planner]

Timetable is heavily padded when its ECML. Loads of time and little traffic in the way as well.

There is very little padding, its all engineering allowances for any single line working etc. That isn't padding.

 

[Peter Sarf]

This discussion on ride quality has me thinking, and is CS relevant I think. Obviously there are line speeds and the 92s have their acceleration / deceleration profile, which I imagine through route learning the drivers understand the braking distance to stop at Crewe, Preston, Carlisle etc.

Obviously the sleeper may go at higher speed than timetabled to make up late running etc. Long dwells at various places as often highlighted here.

But is it written down somewhere, X Section at Rugby, the line speed is 40 (no idea, making it up) but you should take it at 20 (no idea, making it up) for the comfort of the 400 people sleeping behind ? Eg you are permitted to travel at the former, but the latter is preferred.

An interesting point of difference as presumably in most daytime passenger trains, you drive according to the stock limitations and any other safety restrictions, but otherwise get from A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible and permitted.

Apologies for any poor terminology - genuine question.

I wonder if a freight train driver is more inclined to fit the trains speed to what is needed rather than what is possible ?. As CS is operated by GBRF drivers the chances are these drivers view things as requiring power and braking within the locomotives capabilities rather than near to the maximum capability of the locomotive. There is more slack in the sleeper timetable and I suppose it is the same for freight - fitted around passenger services.

 

[12LDA28C]

the second driver was absolutely appalling. Insisted on starting off using the straight air brake and throwing everyone out of bed with a lurch at every station.

What does this mean exactly? It's pretty standard to release the train brakes and hold the train on the straight air brake only prior to departing a station to avoid 'snatching' couplings when pulling away.

 

[driverd]

What does this mean exactly? It's pretty standard to release the train brakes and hold the train on the straight air brake only prior to departing a station to avoid 'snatching' couplings when pulling away.

Acheives the opposite (when talking about a twin piped, air braked, modern-ish passenger train) - if you take amps and hold on the straight air (releasing the train brake), the whole train snatches against the loco if there isn't already tension in the coupling between the loco and train. That process is fine if the gradient is already climbing, but if it's anything else (or the straight air is slammed off), the loco lurches away from the coaching stock and snatches up all the tension in the coupler, thoroughly jolting the train.

The general consensus at our place is drivers from a freight background will insist on releasing the train brake and taking power against the straight air (which makes perfect sense for single piped, lengthy freight trains), all the people from a passenger background use the train brake and take amps just before the brake cylinders empty - when surveying those behind us on which is smoother (and from personal experience travelling pass in the train) - it's absolutely the later!

 

[Scotrail84]

This discussion on ride quality has me thinking, and is CS relevant I think. Obviously there are line speeds and the 92s have their acceleration / deceleration profile, which I imagine through route learning the drivers understand the braking distance to stop at Crewe, Preston, Carlisle etc.

Obviously the sleeper may go at higher speed than timetabled to make up late running etc. Long dwells at various places as often highlighted here.

But is it written down somewhere, X Section at Rugby, the line speed is 40 (no idea, making it up) but you should take it at 20 (no idea, making it up) for the comfort of the 400 people sleeping behind ? Eg you are permitted to travel at the former, but the latter is preferred.

An interesting point of difference as presumably in most daytime passenger trains, you drive according to the stock limitations and any other safety restrictions, but otherwise get from A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible and permitted.

Apologies for any poor terminology - genuine question.

Coventry diamond x overs. Line speed is permitted but most drivers take it much slower as its very loud and bumpy

 

[Deepgreen]

Interesting posts recently about ride comfort. I am using the sleeper in mid-March. I am wondering if drivers' concern for comfort is purely humanitarian or if they are measured in any way on comfort (and penalised) by passenger surveys, reports, etc? I imagine the latter would be so subjective that it would be unviable, so I assume that drivers simply care about their passengers which is (literally!) comforting.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jan 2025 ==

Coventry diamond x overs. Line speed is permitted but most drivers take it much slower as its very loud and bumpy

It's an interesting issue about the dividing line between rough/noisy riding and the imposition of TSRs when things reach a certain level.

 

[BRX]

I'd say I've experienced quite a wide range of driving styles both on the CS and on night trains abroad, varying from those where it feels like a lot of care is being taken, to those where the impression is that the train might as well be made up of freight wagons, with lurching, sudden stops and starts all the way. I always wonder if it's entirely down to the whims of the driver or whether there is an official policy.

 

[Scotrail84]

I'd say I've experienced quite a wide range of driving styles both on the CS and on night trains abroad, varying from those where it feels like a lot of care is being taken, to those where the impression is that the train might as well be made up of freight wagons, with lurching, sudden stops and starts all the way. I always wonder if it's entirely down to the whims of the driver or whether there is an official policy.

Sleepers will always run at full speed where line speed permits.

87.5 with a 92
90 with a 73
75 with a 66

 

[Peter Sarf]

Sleepers will always run at full speed where line speed permits.

87.5 with a 92
90 with a 73
75 with a 66

Surely there is a lot of slack in the timetable so those maximum speeds are only reached if the train was delayed and making up time. After all sleeping passengers do not want to arrive too early !.

 

[Scotrail84]

Surely there is a lot of slack in the timetable so those maximum speeds are only reached if the train was delayed and making up time. After all sleeping passengers do not want to arrive too early !.

No, its max speed regardless. Thats why the Lowlanders end up sitting at Preston or ages and the highlander arrives in Edinburgh early 9 times out of 10.

 

[JamieL]

A sample screenshot from the Speed-o-meter app taken on one of my many CS journeys.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely there is a lot of slack in the timetable so those maximum speeds are only reached if the train was delayed and making up time. After all sleeping passengers do not want to arrive too early !.

The ‘slack’ is there for specific reasons, eg engineering works requiring a diversion, pathing time, etc. It is importsnt that drivers drive to the timetable and the capability of the train (which the timetable is designed for), otherwise they may well be delaying something behind.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

No, its max speed regardless. Thats why the Lowlanders end up sitting at Preston or ages and the highlander arrives in Edinburgh early 9 times out of 10.

And nothing to do with it being timed at 80mph as per info on RTT (which I accept is not an official source but presumably their info. is drawn from an official source)?
All four trains for tonight show as 80mph on WCML on RTT?

Timing of 7.5 mins from Beattock Summit to Beattock = 80mph, 7 mins would be 85.7 so slightly below this time would be achieved if running to loco max (6.5 mins would be 92mph so too fast).

Perhaps waits / early arrivals are due to actually running at loco max. rather than at timed speed.

 

[ABB125]

How reliable are cross-platform connections to the Fort William portion, at a station where the sleeper passes a ScotRail train? I'm intending to join the southbound sleeper at Bridge of Orchy on Sunday, having just arrived there from the south on a ScotRail train. How long does it take for the RETB signalling to clear once a train has arrived in the platform? The train I'm getting off is due at 2044, the sleeper is due to depart at 2046 (2047 WTT) - if the northbound train is late, will the sleeper lock the doors ready to depart the moment the section ahead clears (which could be before I can get off the train)?

Essentially, how "safe" is my plan?

Obviously, if there are major delays the plan goes out the window, but I'll just have to deal with that if it happens

 

[D6130]

How reliable are cross-platform connections to the Fort William portion, at a station where the sleeper passes a ScotRail train? I'm intending to join the southbound sleeper at Bridge of Orchy on Sunday, having just arrived there from the south on a ScotRail train. How long does it take for the RETB signalling to clear once a train has arrived in the platform? The train I'm getting off is due at 2044, the sleeper is due to depart at 2046 (2047 WTT) - if the northbound train is late, will the sleeper lock the doors ready to depart the moment the section ahead clears (which could be before I can get off the train)?

Essentially, how "safe" is my plan?

Obviously, if there are major delays the plan goes out the window, but I'll just have to deal with that if it happens

I would be inclined to get off at Upper Tyndrum!

 

[ABB125]

I would be inclined to get off at Upper Tyndrum!

That's currently plan B, half an hour's wait isn't too bad. (Although if it's the sleeper running late I'll probably be fine going to Bridge of Orchy.)

 

[SuspectUsual]

I would be inclined to get off at Upper Tyndrum!

Me too. Especially because (if I recall correctly) (1) nothing gets reported on RTT between Fort William and Rannoch so your visibility of how the sleeper is running will be pretty limited and (2) the northbound Scotrail has about 15 minutes at Crianlarich to split and let the Oban portion get out of the way so some late running can be made up there

 

[John Bishop]

1S25 has been cancelled at EDW this morning, looks like INV and ABD portion not going north, not sure about the FTW.

 

[Falcon1200]

Perhaps waits / early arrivals are due to actually running at loco max. rather than at timed speed.

IIRC the sleepers are timed to run at 80mph max for passenger comfort reasons, but can run at higher line/stock speed if running late, to make up time.

 

[twpsaesneg]

Can anyone recommend a good Cafe to get a full Scottish Breakfast at after arrival in Glasgow Central on the Lowlander? i.e. Lorne Sausage, Potato Farls etc. Thanks!

 

[Scotrail84]

1S25 has been cancelled at EDW this morning, looks like INV and ABD portion not going north, not sure about the FTW.

There is no Aberdeen today, just the Inverness and FTW portions. Problem with the brakes according to RTT but that may not be accurate.

 

[Gonzoiku]

1S25 has been cancelled at EDW this morning, looks like INV and ABD portion not going north, not sure about the FTW.

If it ended up at East Dulwich, it deserved to be cancelled!

Any word on alternative transport and timing thereof?

GZ

 

[Scotrail84]

If it ended up at East Dulwich, it deserved to be cancelled!

Any word on alternative transport and timing thereof?

GZ

Buses and ScotRail services used for onward transport.

The sets ran empty to Pomade according to RTT. Must be completely knackered.

 

[ruaival]

Can anyone recommend a good Cafe to get a full Scottish Breakfast at after arrival in Glasgow Central on the Lowlander? i.e. Lorne Sausage, Potato Farls etc. Thanks!

Lorne sausage roll and nice coffee with window seat view of Argyle Street world going by.

Central Cafe, Glasgow – On the corner of Argyle St. and Hope St. under the Heilanman’s Umbrella

Welcome to Central Cafe Welcome to Central Cafe, your favourite stop for breakfast, lunch and cocktails. You'll find us on the corner of Argyle St. and Hope St. under the Heilanman's Umbrella. As a part of the iconic Central Station building we have created a retro corner for you to enjoy in...

centralcafeglasgow.com

Checked out just a few weeks back.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Can anyone recommend a good Cafe to get a full Scottish Breakfast at after arrival in Glasgow Central on the Lowlander? i.e. Lorne Sausage, Potato Farls etc. Thanks!

Doesn’t do a full breakfast but the coffee at Gordon Street coffee at the front of the station is really excellent

 

[Scotrail84]

Severe wheel flats were the cause of this mornings carry on, if they're that bad then tonights highlander south services will be at risk of cancellation unless they can get them to a lathe and fixed today, but I would think that will be doubtful as they'd need to be in place at Inverness at FTW in time for tonights departures.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Can anyone recommend a good Cafe to get a full Scottish Breakfast at after arrival in Glasgow Central on the Lowlander? i.e. Lorne Sausage, Potato Farls etc. Thanks!

Not a café, but I always head to the Central Hotel when I come off the Sleeper - they sell breakfast to non-residents, and it's got the full works but you can pick and choose which bits you want and how much of each you want, carvery style - you can even go back for seconds without having to pay extra...