TFGM press release: Mayor Andy Burnham reveals plans for Bee Network rail to boost passenger numbers and drive Greater Manchester’s growth

[plugwash]

How is this overcome in other areas of the country where this may still exist?

You pretty much never see a frequent and consistent local service (e.g 4TPH evenly spaced) on a two track line that also accomodates intercity or even regional express trains.

Many lines in and out of London are effectively 4 or even 6 tracks. Which helps keep the stoppers and the intercities out of each others way. The lines going round the edge of London don't really have any intercity traffic.

Merseyrails northern and wirral lines are essentially dedicated to mersyrail trains. The "city line" gets poor service because it's sharing with intercity and regional express trains.

It's possible to "flight" services, sending through trains of the same speed in succession. This improves train capacity, but it can also defeat the object of having a higher TPH. 2TPH evenly spaced is better than three trains at xx:2x, xx:3x, and xx:4x.

How do they manage to do this north of Preston with the stopping services and the expresses within many miles of two track railway- which is the post i was questioning?

A combination of things.

Firstly they simply closed most of the stations between preston and carlisle, or in one case closed the mainline platforms and kept only those on the branch. Afaict there are only three stations left between preston and Carlisle.

Preston remains open.
Oxheys was closed in 1925
Barton and Broughton railway station was closed in 1965
Roebuck was closed in 1849
Garstang and Catterall was closed in 1969
Scorton was closed in 1939
Galgate was closed in 1939
Lancaster remains open.
Hest bank closed in 1969
Bolton le sands closed in 1969
Carnforth lost it's mainline platforms in 1970, it retains it's platforms on the branch.
Burton and Holme closed in 1966
Milnthorpe closed in 1968
Oxenholme remains open
Plumpton closed in 1948
Calthwaite closed in 1952
Southwaite closed in 1952
Wreay closed in 1943
Brisco closed in 1852
Carlisle is still open

Secondly, the services at some stations really aren't all that frequent. penrith for example gets an average of about two trains per hour southbound.

Thirdly, there appears to be "flighting" going on. If you look at the southbound timetable at penrith. there are frquently 40 plus minuite gaps and there is a 110 minuite gap between 19:48 and 21:39!.

 

[alanbur]

It’s not overcome. Hence, for example, it only being feasible to operate an hourly local passenger service along the Hope Valley line amongst a twice per hour fast and significant amounts of freight.

I thought The Hope Valley Railway Upgrade was supposed to fix that, but from a quick look it seems the stopping service is still only hourly.

 

[Killingworth]

I thought The Hope Valley Railway Upgrade was supposed to fix that, but from a quick look it seems the stopping service is still only hourly.

A very sore point, 25 years waiting for more capacity, 3 years of disruptive construction, £150m spent and the most imperceptible improvements to service reliabilty.

Ironically, 5 or so years ago the stopping service used Pacers that skip stopped many of the stations and ran at irregular intervals. Thanks to the introduction of 195s and the aftermath of the Manchester meltdown we have that hourly service stopping at almost the same times every hour at all stations.

What happened? Passenger numbers are at record levels. There is considerable lobbying to resolve calls for more stops, either on existing fast services or by extending the New Mills stopper.

Come back in 2028 and we may have got somewhere. It takes that long to plan in new service patterns.

At which point electrification should, theoretically, be started on the MML down the Sheaf Valley into Sheffield with an added 3rd track and reconfigured platform layout to create more capacity.

But even Huw Merriman conceded that work wouldn't be completed before the early 2030s, maybe 2035. With a spending review, or three, due before then I'm not holding my breath. When he reopened Dore & Totley 2 tracked, 6 car, station last April he suggested the Hope Valley line would be electrified, cough, cough.

 

[Blackpool boy]

It would be possible to do the same elsewhere, yes. So if we're looking at the line towards Guide Bridge, are you happy to see the closure of Ardwick*, Ashburys, Gorton and Fairfield so you get a similar station spacing so it's reasonable for TPE to call at all stations too? No, I thought not. Or on the line towards Preston are you happy to lose Salford Crescent, Clifton*, Kearsley, Moses Gate, Farnworth, Lostock, Horwich Parkway, Blackrod, Adlington and Buckshaw Parkway? Again, no, thought not.

* OK, maybe one of them is reasonable.

Youre expanding on a question that was never asked - go back and read what i asked then answer that question not fill out pages of text answering a question that sits in your head

You pretty much never see a frequent and consistent local service (e.g 4TPH evenly spaced) on a two track line that also accomodates intercity or even regional express trains.

Pretty much never indicates that it does happen then? Thanks for confirming.

It's possible to "flight" services, sending through trains of the same speed in succession.

oh so it is possible to do this then, thanks for confirming.

Firstly they simply closed most of the stations between preston and carlisle, or in one case closed the mainline platforms and kept only those on the branch. Afaict there are only three stations left between preston and Carlisle

No one asked that question about the make up of what stations closed nor the quick history lesson but thanks for it and confirming that it can and does happen elsewhere.

Phew, we got there in the end didn't we

 

[Discuss223]

Mayor Andy Burnham reveals plans for Bee Network rail to boost passenger numbers and drive Greater Manchester’s growth​

My question is who will actually be delivering the service? If it's still Northern Fail, it will still be crap.

I wish councillors would stop meddling with transport and leave the appointed companies to do their job. The services to and from Stalybridge for example are part of a far wider network that spans to other parts of the country, such as York, Leeds & Southport, of which the mayor of Manchester has no business getting involved in transport for.

Perhaps he should stick to preventing library closures and ensuring litter bins get emptied.

Our train services are not to be used as a political weapon.

 

[Blackpool boy]

I wish councillors would stop meddling with transport and leave the appointed companies to do their job. The services to and from Stalybridge for example are part of a far wider network that spans to other parts of the country, such as York, Leeds & Southport, of which the mayor of Manchester has no business getting involved in transport for.

Perhaps he should stick to preventing library closures and ensuring litter bins get emptied.

Our train services are not to be used as a political weapon.

he isnt a councillor he is the mayor of the third largest city in England.

yes other places use manachester as a destination but he is right in wanting to have more say over the transport in the area he is mayor for. It is his job to get the best for Manchester

 

[The Planner]

How do they manage to do this north of Preston with the stopping services and the expresses within many miles of two track railway- which is the post i was questioning?

You flight trains to leave big enough gaps for freight and stoppers, therefore have bunching of trains with big gaps in between station stops before the flight repeats.

 

[Blackpool boy]

You flight trains to leave big enough gaps for freight and stoppers, therefore have bunching of trains with big gaps in between station stops before the flight repeats.

oh i know how flighting trains works and i never said it was ideal or anything like that - far from it - I only answered with a simple question but as always the question doesnt get answered and it gets pulled in all different directions

 

[plugwash]

You asked how it was "dealt with elsewhere"

And the short answer is by either not providing local services at all (large parts of the WCML) not providing turn up and go frequencies on local services (most of the mainline network) or not mixing stoppers and intercities on the same tracks (merseyrail, most metro systems, some mainline railways round london).

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I wish councillors would stop meddling with transport and leave the appointed companies to do their job. The services to and from Stalybridge for example are part of a far wider network that spans to other parts of the country, such as York, Leeds & Southport, of which the mayor of Manchester has no business getting involved in transport for.

Perhaps he should stick to preventing library closures and ensuring litter bins get emptied.

Our train services are not to be used as a political weapon.

Have you seen London? The tube leaves London in a few places and it works fine.
TPE will probably be limitedly impacted, just as LNWR or Greater Anglia aren't TfL services, but are still usable with contactless.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This seems to imply that longer distance cross-boundary stopping services won’t form part of the Bee Network but ones such as Warrington to Oxford Road or Southport to Stalybridge will

The mention of Southport as not being a longer-distance cross boundary stopping service route seems rather strange, noting the distance that Southport is from Manchester.

how often do Glossop residents go to Derby?

Matlock is the county town of Derbyshire and is much nearer to Glossop than Derby for residents wishing to make a visit with many interesting places nearby to visit.

Public transport planning on travel matters such as this can only be resolved within Derbyshire.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Youre expanding on a question that was never asked - go back and read what i asked then answer that question not fill out pages of text answering a question that sits in your head

The question you asked cannot be answered simply. It is not specific enough. To answer it requires inferences and assumptions, unless you would prefer to flesh it out yourself to avoid those?

Or put simply, you can't compare a Manchester suburban line to the WCML. They just aren't the same thing. You could compare the 2 track section between Birmingham and Rugby with the east Manchester locals, and if you do you'll note that the local frequency there is fairly limited too.

Basically, on a two-track line, your options are infrequent local and infrequent fast (fairly typically 2tph of each), or frequent trains with similar stopping patterns (either all calling at the same stations or flighting/skip stops). That's it.

Or if you prefer, yes, it's possible to do the same thing elsewhere in the same circumstances, and you'll see it done on the ECML too. But the ECML isn't a suburban line out of Manchester with frequent stops.

 

[Blackpool boy]

The question you asked cannot be answered simply. It is not specific enough. To answer it requires inferences and assumptions, unless you would prefer to flesh it out yourself to avoid those?

Did you read my question at all in this link specifically here its pretty straight forward and the answer is too - but once again you go off on a tangent and then replying speaking down to me like i dont know how the railway runs and your opinion is the only one that matters.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did you read my question at all in this link specifically here its pretty straight forward and the answer is too - but once again you go off on a tangent and then replying speaking down to me like i dont know how the railway runs and your opinion is the only one that matters.

If this was your question:

So they do manage to fit them in then and it would be possible to do the same elsewhere.

Then the answer is "yes, provided the circumstances* are the same, which on the lines out to the east of Manchester they are not**".

* Service patterns, station spacing, demand etc.
** Whereas on the north ECML, say, they basically are, when you are looking at calls at the likes of Northallerton, Darlington and Durham, though these are bigger places in demand terms than Kendal and Penrith.

 

[The exile]

So it is possible to overcome then

Thanks for confirming.

As others have said, it hasn’t been overcome, it’s been rendered moot by closing almost all of the stations so that there is no need for what most would understand as a “stopping service”. There were, for example, once 12 or 13 stations between Preston and Oxenholme. How many are there now?

 

[Killingworth]

As others have said, it hasn’t been overcome, it’s been rendered moot by closing almost all of the stations so that there is no need for what most would understand as a “stopping service”. There were, for example, once 12 or 13 stations between Preston and Oxenholme. How many are there now?

I've a friend in Garstang and assumed I could visit him by public transport - until I found the station was closed long ago. What a trial. I'd get there in half the time, any time of the day, by car.

 

[alanbur]

Matlock is the county town of Derbyshire and is much nearer to Glossop than Derby for residents wishing to make a visit with many interesting places nearby to visit.

Just as long as they don't want to do it by public transport, that is.

Public transport planning on travel matters such as this can only be resolved within Derbyshire.

That's clearly not the case if GM transport is coming to multiple places in Derbyshire.

 

[mangad]

Matlock is the county town of Derbyshire and is much nearer to Glossop than Derby for residents wishing to make a visit with many interesting places nearby to visit.

Public transport planning on travel matters such as this can only be resolved within Derbyshire.

It's an hour long drive from Glossop to Matlock. By public transport, 3 hours. Google Maps is coming up with options that involve four trains, or multiple combinations of trains and buses.

The number of people going from Glossop to Matlock on even a semi-regular basis - or indeed vice versa - is going to be incredibly low. Matlock's a nice place. But it's a touristy place. Someone from Glossop may go once or twice, but they don't need to go regularly.

In contrast residents of Glossop and Hadfield commute into Greater Manchester for work, to study. They're in the System One fare zone. Manchester is a regular destination by the sheer nature of the transport links being there. This is abundantly clear by Glossop's bus links. 237 running every 20 minutes to Ashton. Hourly 341 to Hyde. 2 hourly 394 to Stepping Hill. Two highly local town services. A weekly bus to Holmfirth. The only true Derbyshire to Derbyshire service is the 61 - 2 an hour, one of which terminates at nearby New Mills, and one of which goes on to Buxton.

The idea that travel matters within that section of Derbyshire can be resolved in Derbyshire, ain't realistic. Because so much of the travel is cross-boundary, a lot of it is simply going to be Transport for Greater Manchester saying "well this is what we're doing..." There's certainly a very good reason the TfGM logo is outside Glossop, Dinting and Hadfield stations.

 

[alanbur]

The idea that travel matters within that section of Derbyshire can be resolved in Derbyshire, ain't realistic.

Spot on, every bit of that.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Just as long as they don't want to do it by public transport, that is.

That's clearly not the case if GM transport is coming to multiple places in Derbyshire.

How many of these "multiple places" in Derbyshire are visited the the "GM Transport" you make reference to,.

There are bus services from South Yorkshire that call at towns en route into Derbyshire, so do you suggest that the South Yorkshire area copy the Bee Network in those areas?

 

[alanbur]

How many of these "multiple places" in Derbyshire are visited the the "GM Transport" you make reference to,.

There's a list in the press release.

There are bus services from South Yorkshire that call at towns en route into Derbyshire, so do you suggest that the South Yorkshire area copy the Bee Network in those areas?

I didn't suggest that and why on earth would I?

 

[Discuss223]

Matlock is the county town of Derbyshire and is much nearer to Glossop than Derby for residents wishing to make a visit with many interesting places nearby to visit.

Surely Derby is the county town of Derbyshire, first and foremost.

I do wonder if the mention of Glossop in these "plans" is linked to Greater Manchester councils wanting to bring Glossop in as part of Greater Manchester. It's not a plan that's popular with locals from what I've seen on Facebook.

There are bus services from South Yorkshire that call at towns en route into Derbyshire, so do you suggest that the South Yorkshire area copy the Bee Network in those areas?

Goodness gracious no. If anything, railways in South Yorkshire could do with some input from West Yorkshire metro, but the local mayors up there know to keep things at arms' length and leave the train companies to do what they do best.

Have you seen London? The tube leaves London in a few places and it works fine.
TPE will probably be limitedly impacted, just as LNWR or Greater Anglia aren't TfL services, but are still usable with contactless.

With respect sir, the Underground is a lightrail service that leaves London briefly to serve commuter belt towns such as Amersham and Chesham, it's completely different to having the mayor of Manchester controlling rail services that run to York, Leeds and other parts of the country, just because the trains originate in Manchester.

Greater Anglia have had several problems with customers thinking they can use their bank card as a ticket to Stansted Airport, resulting conflict and press reports such as this. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...es-london-stansted-airport-kemi-badenoch.html

ens of thousands of rail passengers travelling to London Stansted Airport may have been slapped with 'unfair' £100 fines for mistakenly using contactless cards to pay for their journey.

Travellers are able to tap in with contactless cards at Liverpool Street and Tottenham Hale stations and board a train to Stansted.

However, upon arriving at the airport, passengers cannot tap with London Oyster cards or contactless bank cards - and are instead being handed penalty fares as high as £100.

And with data from 2019 showing that around 16,000 people were fined, fears are growing that tens of thousands of people may have been handed punitive fares in the years since.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

How many of these "multiple places" in Derbyshire are visited the the "GM Transport" you make reference to,.

Let me rephrase my question. How many of these "multiple places" in Derbyshire that "GM Transport" will be connected with have direct through rail connections into Derby?

Surely Derby is the county town of Derbyshire, first and foremost.

A quick telephone call to the council offices in Matlock confirms that Matlock is indeed the county town of Derbyshire.

 

[alanbur]

Let me rephrase my question. How many of these "multiple places" in Derbyshire that "GM Transport" will be connected with have direct through rail connections into Derby?

I have no idea what point you are trying to make, but you are as capable of answering that question as I am.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

With respect sir, the Underground is a lightrail service that leaves London briefly to serve commuter belt towns such as Amersham and Chesham, it's completely different to having the mayor of Manchester controlling rail services that run to York, Leeds and other parts of the country, just because the trains originate in Manchester.

As another example then, the Elizabeth Line services that start at Paddington to Reading (as TfL rail did for many years) that go to Reading spend more time (and distance) out of Greater London than inside it.
And no Northern services go directly from Greater Manchester to York.

The mention of Southport as not being a longer-distance cross boundary stopping service route seems rather strange, noting the distance that Southport is from Manchester.

Southport-Stalybridge services spend a majority of their time (32 of 45 miles, and 1h 10m of 1h 30m) inside Manchester, I think it's pretty reasonable for these to be considered Greater Manchester services.

Greater Anglia have had several problems with customers thinking they can use their bank card as a ticket to Stansted Airport, resulting conflict and press reports such as this. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...es-london-stansted-airport-kemi-badenoch.html

They'll be able to soon.

 

[Winthorpe]

Surely Derby is the county town of Derbyshire, first and foremost.

Matlock is definitely the county town of Derbyshire.

 

[alanbur]

Surely Derby is the county town of Derbyshire, first and foremost.

If you are talking about administrative areas, no, it's Matlock.

I do wonder if the mention of Glossop in these "plans" is linked to Greater Manchester councils wanting to bring Glossop in as part of Greater Manchester. It's not a plan that's popular with locals from what I've seen on Facebook.

Opinions are mixed, but as there's a total lack of any details, nobody should really have made their mind up yet, either way.

it's completely different to having the mayor of Manchester controlling rail services that run to York, Leeds and other parts of the country, just because the trains originate in Manchester.

The press release is devoid of any details of how services that don't terminate on the new Bee boundary will be handled, so who knows? But I doubt he's going to want to manage York's services for them. This isn't a problem that's unique to GM, virtually any inter-city commuter service is going to have the same issues to address.

 

[chris_in_salop]

If this was your question:



Then the answer is "yes, provided the circumstances* are the same, which on the lines out to the east of Manchester they are not**".

* Service patterns, station spacing, demand etc.
** Whereas on the north ECML, say, they basically are, when you are looking at calls at the likes of Northallerton, Darlington and Durham, though these are bigger places in demand terms than Kendal and Penrith.

I have no desire to join in with this rather robust discussion, but what about the Cross City Line South in Birmingham? OK it is 4-tracked for some distance, and there is also the Camp Hill line, but Intercity and regional expresses mix with a pretty regular local service along the tracks between Lifford and New Street (albeit less frequent than in the past).

 

[MasterPhillips]

Southwestern railway run 4tph stopping services between Twickenham and Barnes in the peak, plus 8tph fast services. I’m sure issues in Manchester can be resolved, providing the services operate at a regular clockface timetable.

 

[Discuss223]

Southwestern railway run 4tph stopping services between Twickenham and Barnes in the peak, plus 8tph fast services. I’m sure issues in Manchester can be resolved, providing the services operate at a regular clockface timetable.

Northern do quite a good job at serving the local commuter market, with 2 trains per hour to Stockport, one of which continuing to Buxton and there's 2 trains per hour to New Mills via Bredbury etc. The 769s have provided increased capacity over the 2 car sets they've replaced and as well as Greater Manchester being largely covered by the tram, there are numerous halts such as Orrell and Humphrey Park, Chasen Road etc that have services in to the city centre.

If you compare that to say Nottingham, which has places such as Bestwood, Hyson Green etc cut off from the rail network but being densely populated, I don't think Manchester gets a rough deal.

Perhaps the Liverpool - Lime Street to Manchester services could be extended to Piccadilly and there could be some more shuttle services between Piccadilly and Manchester Victoria but that's about it. I have experience of using these services at Peak times and found not much to be desired.

23 people viewing this thread, so I am sure plenty will add their opinion but I find that operating companies tend to know how to serve their customers best.