Transport for Wales Class 230

[Chris125]

Improvement has been noted, but it should also be noted they're still failing on a regular basis, just not as much.

Make or break when they send them in fulltime

Could you define 'regular basis'? I've not seen anything to suggest that on RTT in recent months, cancellations caused by any of the trains on the line seem pretty rare now.

 

[Steve B]

Could you define 'regular basis'? I've not seen anything to suggest that on RTT in recent months, cancellations caused by any of the trains on the line seem pretty rare now.

Infrastructure issues - Fallen trees, flooding, slippery rails, signalling problems, and, today track defects - are quite a different matter! Not forgetting problems relating to members of the public, and recently animals on the track...

 

[Zontar]

They fail more than any other train tfw own. And cost a lot more.

 

[Chris125]

They fail more than any other train tfw own. And cost a lot more.

To be clear, you said 'they're still failing on a regular basis' - I'm interested in the evidence for this because it's not what I've seen on RTT in recent months, despite much more regular all-day running.

 

[Caaardiff]

They fail more than any other train tfw own. And cost a lot more.

Do they?
Can you present us with the failure facts?

 

[CaergwrleKen]

It’s been said in previous post they are still having fitters at Upton all the time to check things, that’s not a normal thing. People saying there are 3 of them that are ok now can work all day and there is a plan to work two diagrams. This is what’s said here so why aren’t they doing proper work?

At the end of the day it’s still one diagram with one or two units they are doing with five of them. People now even trying to say the 197s are causing more trouble. The 197s work hard all over Wales and shouldn’t even be there let’s not forget. The 197s are being taken away from the work they should be on main line so trains are only two cars instead of 4 or wherever or getting cancelled. This is all down to the 230s, stop trying to blame the 197s they are helping out. The whole point of this is the amount of money the 230s have cost for what they do or should say don’t do.

 

[Caaardiff]

It’s been said in previous post they are still having fitters at Upton all the time to check things, that’s not a normal thing.

You've just answered your own point. Fitters checking things, doesn't mean a failure. They could be monitoring the tests of the units while they are out in service.
If these keep failing at Upton, then it opens even more questions, such as, Why Upton?

At the end of the day it’s still one diagram with one or two units they are doing with five of them. People now even trying to say the 197s are causing more trouble. The 197s work hard all over Wales and shouldn’t even be there let’s not forget. The 197s are being taken away from the work they should be on main line so trains are only two cars instead of 4 or wherever or getting cancelled. This is all down to the 230s, stop trying to blame the 197s they are helping out. The whole point of this is the amount of money the 230s have cost for what they do or should say don’t do.

While I'd agree with most of that, it's not solely 230's they are covering. They are covering for failed Mark 4's and about 10 Class 231s that are still doing Valleys work.
But it's been discussed time and time again, the 230's are here to stay. There is a lot of work going on in the background, and it appears that things are moving forward to get 230's covering full diagrams, albeit slowly. Nothing is going to change that now, and people could really do with having some patience rather than reposting the same posts every few weeks.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

You've just answered your own point. Fitters checking things, doesn't mean a failure. They could be monitoring the tests of the units while they are out in service.
If these keep failing at Upton, then it opens even more questions, such as, Why Upton?


While I'd agree with most of that, it's not solely 230's they are covering. They are covering for failed Mark 4's and about 10 Class 231s that are still doing Valleys work.
But it's been discussed time and time again, the 230's are here to stay. There is a lot of work going on in the background, and it appears that things are moving forward to get 230's covering full diagrams, albeit slowly. Nothing is going to change that now, and people could really do with having some patience rather than reposting the same posts every few weeks.

I don’t think you should be talking about having patience to people who live on the route and have put up with the last few years since the 230s arrived. That’s all for me now i won’t be commenting anymore.

 

[WirralLine]

A few things to add. The fitters get on the 230 at Upton as turn around time at Bidston isn't long enough to jump on check and get back off. So they ride the 1 stop return trip to give them about 10/15mins time instead of 5mins.

Fitter met a 197 at Wrexham General the other night on the Bidstons because it had a cab fault. You see them jump on 197s (and 158s) at Chester, Shrewsbury etc all the time and nobody bats an eyelid. Nobody is passing blame onto 197s, just saying 197s are proving pretty problematic (just take a look over at the 197 thread).

 

[Caaardiff]

I don’t think you should be talking about having patience to people who live on the route and have put up with the last few years since the 230s arrived. That’s all for me now i won’t be commenting anymore.

The majority of people on the route wouldn't care about what type of train turns up, as long as a train turns up. The performance of the Bidston line has improved drastically through 2024.

 

[Cambrian359]

To be fair to caergwrleKen who I believe is a resident and line user (going by past posts) people have put up with a lot on this line in recent years so while things seem to have improved drastically on the line users are still entitled to make the point that trains that should have been in full service (4out5 per day) back in 2021 still aren’t now.
There does seem to be a lot of petting on the head like a well behaved dog because 1 unit manages a full day now…..which I do agree is great but it is at a snails pace (yes we all know the issues with various fleets etc some of which is out of tfw control). Personally I look forward to trying them one day as last time I used them was on the underground.

 

[Chris125]

There does seem to be a lot of petting on the head like a well behaved dog

Hardly a helpful comment.

 

[Philip Roberts]

To be fair to caergwrleKen who I believe is a resident and line user (going by past posts) people have put up with a lot on this line in recent years so while things seem to have improved drastically on the line users are still entitled to make the point that trains that should have been in full service (4out5 per day) back in 2021 still aren’t now.
There does seem to be a lot of petting on the head like a well behaved dog because 1 unit manages a full day now…..which I do agree is great but it is at a snails pace (yes we all know the issues with various fleets etc some of which is out of tfw control). Personally I look forward to trying them one day as last time I used them was on the underground.

I think everyone here wants to see the line get a reliable service

 

[WirralLine]

I think everyone here wants to see the line get a reliable service

Correct - im another local and regular user of the line for the last 30 odd years - its the most reliable it's been in my life time currently.

The likes of CaergwrleKen I presume may live in the Caergwrle area - in which case didn't suffer many years of services being turned back at Shotton and skipping the English part of the line due to late running when it was pacers and 153s. This was pre PIS days at stations so you'd be waiting at Neston with no idea. That was an almost daily occurrence and when it did run it was almost consistently 10,15,20 minutes late.

As I've said multiple times before there are a lot of questions to be asked about the 230 project from the start, however they don't appear to be going any time soon, so any progress to get them reliably running the line alone is progress that we need.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They fail more than any other train tfw own. And cost a lot more.

+

Do they?
Can you present us with the failure facts?

Also do you @Zontar know the associated costs of 230s, 197s etc.

 

[Zontar]

+

Also do you @Zontar know the associated costs of 230s, 197s etc.

I know that the 197s don't have dedicated staff sat around to move them in the depot or in case they fail.

I also know that a 230 uses more fuel than a class 67.

 

[Richard Scott]

I also know that a 230 uses more fuel than a class 67.

Please can you evidence that with data?

 

[WirralLine]

Also presumably when they've settled down properly with their mods they may revisit the geo-fencing idea as originally intended which would significantly reduce fuel costs and presumably help the gensets not overheat

 

[Zontar]

Please can you evidence that with data?

No physical data. But information from fitters

 

[The exile]

I also know that a 230 uses more fuel than a class 67.

Than a 67 doing the same job?

 

[Sheridan]

I know that the 197s don't have dedicated staff sat around to move them in the depot or in case they fail.

I also know that a 230 uses more fuel than a class 67.

Presumably 197s do have a whole depot full of dedicated staff, who do move them around the depot as needed?

 

[TonyColeman2]

Any one know the identity of this Welsh train on Birkenhead depot today 1/2/25

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

To be fair to caergwrleKen who I believe is a resident and line user (going by past posts) people have put up with a lot on this line in recent years so while things seem to have improved drastically on the line users are still entitled to make the point that trains that should have been in full service (4out5 per day) back in 2021 still aren’t now.
There does seem to be a lot of petting on the head like a well behaved dog because 1 unit manages a full day now…..which I do agree is great but it is at a snails pace (yes we all know the issues with various fleets etc some of which is out of tfw control). Personally I look forward to trying them one day as last time I used them was on the underground.

I have to agree, yes.

 

[John R]

I guess people can bleat forever about how unsatisfactory a service, class type etc was years ago, but it’s history, and doesn’t add anything new to the discussion.

 

[Zontar]

Presumably 197s do have a whole depot full of dedicated staff, who do move them around the depot as needed?

Yes they do. But they aren't TFW drivers, which the 230s require.

 

[Caaardiff]

Yes they do. But they aren't TFW drivers, which the 230s require.

Who do you think moves them on and off the Depot?

 

[Zontar]

Who do you think moves them on and off the Depot?

TFW drivers are being used as shunters solely at Birkenhead. The point being they are excluded from any normal link work as a result.

 

[317 forever]

I am in the Chester area next Saturday.

Although my plans have so far been to ride some buses in Cheshire & Birkenhead, then get a 777 to Chester, I am wondering how easy it will be to locate a 230 from Bidston to Heswall or Shotton.

Judging by this thread, it looks unlikely that more than 50% of the service will be 230s, if that.

 

[twpsaesneg]

No physical data. But information from fitters

Were they sniggering as they told you?

A class 67 has greater cubic capacity in a single cylinder than all the engines in a class 230 combined. The only way a 230 would use more fuel would be if the 67 was turned off and being hauled by it. Crazy assertation to make.

 

[Sheridan]

TFW drivers are being used as shunters solely at Birkenhead. The point being they are excluded from any normal link work as a result.

How long does this last for? Presumably the local ASLEF branch would be interested if regular drivers are taken off normal work for any length of time?