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Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

Nicholas Lewis

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I understand the issues at station isn’t just a lack of lamp posts, it’s stuff that can’t easily be solved like glare from the signal lenses bouncing off the side of the train making it difficult to establish if the PTI is clear and close the doors. Trying to get signals re-sited is an absolute minefield and would result in blockades to put the foundations in to move signal gantries etc.

That said however, CCTV DOO isn’t a new concept (I believe 377s were the first units delivered with body side cameras 20 odd years ago) and there must be a solution to allow the numerous body side camera fleets to operate. Is the solution to reduce the safety standard? modify the cameras? Move the signals? I don’t know I’m afraid. I’ve said it before but GA managed it 4/5 years ago so it can’t be impossible (that said, they already had stretches of pure DOO, so might have been easier to push through the unions as it was seen as an increase in safety, rather than a decrease)
100's of stations are lit for DOO working and are even operated with Aventra platform trains and plenty of other trains with bodyside cameras now v platform monitors. Something is seriously awry on the SW and the industry should hold its head in shame about what has unfolded here.
 
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Deepgreen

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100's of stations are lit for DOO working and are even operated with Aventra platform trains and plenty of other trains with bodyside cameras now v platform monitors. Something is seriously awry on the SW and the industry should hold its head in shame about what has unfolded here.
Indeed - almost a case of Arterio...sclerosis - a thinning of arteries (lines), restricting blood (passenger) flow...
 

Towers

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This is probably a really stupid question but how do the guards operate the doors from a cab - could they do it from the drivers cab if that’s on the platform?
No; the guard is required to remain at the door controls until the train has cleared the platform, it wouldn’t be permitted to have a guard stood in the driving cab while the train is moving. Generally speaking it isn’t ideal for a guard to be undertaking dispatch from the front end of a lengthy train, as it dramatically reduces thier ability to see anything happening on the platform which might require them to stop the train.
 

Deepgreen

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I'm too young to recall the SUB to class 508 switch. I do vaguely recall shiny space age trains in amongst the thousands of slam door trains, which must have been 508s. I do recall the 465/466 and 357s when new. With the former, the BREL and Met-Cam units would not talk to each other. The 357s had various problems such that a motley collection of classes 310/312 and 317 were hired in to cover for a year. Both of these seem like a walk in the park compared to the class 701s.

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Perhaps someone could elaborate, on a new thread if necessary. The traction equipment is quite new. I think that most of the other systems are quite similar to class 150s, and most of them have no replacement on order. It's a shame that the Southern units weren't harvested for spare parts.
My perception is that the slam-door to sliding-door era change on the SWD was fairly painless (speaking only as a young passenger!) compared to the 701 debacle. As a precursor, there were the PEP units, which were provided to test technical changes and passenger reaction, etc. The technical and operational changes from SUBs to PEPs/508s was far greater than from 455s to 701s but you wouldn't know it from the shambles that has ensued.

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Any sensible business would be able to keep the 455s going for as long as it takes. Spare parts might be costly to obtain, but not impossible. The Belgians have just finished using EMUs dating from the 1960s. Going back the the arrival of the Networkers, the unrefurbished EPBs were far more battered than the SWR 455s are now but they kept going. They were essentially in as built 1950s condition. The 455s have had an extensive refurb and also modern traction equipment installed.
Yes, and despite the claims that the 455s are in danger of driving off a cliff-edge of reliability, they currently have an enviable record, so I find it hard to reconcile the two. However, if it is true that they are about to fall apart en masse, then if the 701s continue in 'ghost train mode', timetable slashing will be the only option, as presumably drafting in other stock will involve similar pain. Wouldn't a national strategic rolling stock programme be a wonderful concept...
 
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43096

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If there really is an issue with dispatch from the middle of fixed 10-car sets, perhaps the answer under the joined up (he says hopefully) nationalised railway is an order for Aventras as Networker replacements for South Eastern with 120 cabs cars built for SWR to splice into the 10-car 701s and create 5-car sets - with the displaced middle cars being recycled into the South Eastern order.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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My perception is that the slam-door to sliding-door era change on the SWD was fairly painless (speaking only as a young passenger!) compared to the 701 debacle. As a precursor, there were the PEP units, which were provided to test technical changes and passenger reaction, etc. The technical and operational changes from SUBs to PEPs/508s was far greater than from 455s to 701s but you wouldn't know it from the shambles that has ensued.
Theres history on the SW they previously attempted to introduce DOO one in BR days. Kit was installed on the platforms in BR days and the lighting bought upto the standards of the day only for it all to be ripped out. Im pretty sure Stagecoach thought about but realised that industrial relations and dealing with Railtrack wasn't a worthwhile combination.

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Yes, and despite the claims that the 455s are in danger of driving off a cliff-edge of reliability, they currently have an enviable record, so I find it hard to reconcile the two. However, if it is true that they are about to fall apart en masse, then if the 701s continue in 'ghost train mode', timetable slashing will be the only option, as presumably drafting in other stock will involve similar pain. Wouldn't a national strategic rolling stock strategy be a wonderful concept...
The 455's can be kept going indefinitely as long as body corrosion isn't happening or at a slow rate and the bogies don't get fatigued. The traction kit is standard product and needs little attention. The Westinghouse compressors and MA sets are long in the tooth but they could be replaced by a modern day alternative if necessary. Of course in BR days we would have cannibalised bits off other redundant stock. What ive noticed though recently is interiors are starting to get tatty having been a very tidy train internally despite there age which is understandable given the theoretical limited life.
 
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If there really is an issue with dispatch from the middle of fixed 10-car sets, perhaps the answer under the joined up (he says hopefully) nationalised railway is an order for Aventras as Networker replacements for South Eastern with 120 cabs cars built for SWR to splice into the 10-car 701s and create 5-car sets - with the displaced middle cars being recycled into the South Eastern order.
Wishful thinking. Also, Alstom aren't offering the Aventra in the tender offer - the programme has come to an end
 

Deepgreen

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Theres history on the SW they previously attempted to introduce DOO one in BR days. Kit was installed on the platforms in BR days and the lighting bought upto the standards of the day only for it all to be ripped out. Im pretty sure Stagecoach thought about but realised that industrial relations and dealing with Railtrack wasn't a worthwhile combination.
Yes - I recall that a great deal of kit was installed, cobwebs grew over it and it was eventually removed. Farcical.

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And now we're on page 400 of this discussion ...
I wouldn't be surprised if it's still going when the page number matches the class number.
 
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Gag Halfrunt

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Aside from low floor, is the new product (forget its name) substantially different from the Aventra?

Xtrapolis and Aventra trains have been rebranded as Adessia. By "low floor" do you mean the Xtrapolis trains for DART in Ireland?


Similarly, all Alstom locomotives are now branded as Traxx.

 

I_am_Nobody

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Unions will back down once the 455 cab doors start falling off
They won't, unless the working conditions have been improved significantly from where they are today. The 455s will remain in service until at least next year if they need to... if they survive that long. The maintenance cycle on them is becoming strained at best. Beyond that point, they cannot remain in service, and either the 701s are out in force, or DfT Operator Ltd has been saddled with a problem from SWR that it will need to resolve pretty sharpish.

The tensabarriers in the cupboards on the Aventras will not stop people getting into the coach you've chosen to isolate to work from in that circumstance, and you'd also have to be stopping people boarding the train using those two doors two. It's inpractical and unworkable, which is why it isn't the agreed upon working practice. The agreed upon working practice is, as I've stated previously, working from the rear cab and having not-to-stop orders put in place for any short platforms should the train remain busy to that point, and taking extra care to ensure visibility of the whole train at platforms.

Either way... this really is a bad situation to be in, and there isn't any immediate fixes. Anything will take time, money and effort. And smart people coming together. It'll be fine... eventually.

Xtrapolis and Aventra trains have been rebranded as Adessia.
I refuse to call them anything but Aventras. It's what I know them as! xD
 

Fincra5

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Where are all the 5-car 701s and why are they not in service in pairs? They could fill in the shortfall in stock next week.
This is what I was thinking. Why not push to ger the 5 cars into operation first. Whilst, they either come to a working agreement or modifications are made to affected stations so that the rear cab is on the platform.
 

pompeyfan

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From memory weren’t 10 car 707s still not permitted to call at 5 car platforms due to the rear unit being stranded and the risk of egress / passcoms? So even if they miraculously accepted all the 5 car 701s there’d still be some issues.
 

TEW

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From memory weren’t 10 car 707s still not permitted to call at 5 car platforms due to the rear unit being stranded and the risk of egress / passcoms? So even if they miraculously accepted all the 5 car 701s there’d still be some issues.
That's correct. 701s weren't going to have the same restriction, but who knows anymore. It's only 2 stations and 4 trains a day we're talking about anyway.
 
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From memory weren’t 10 car 707s still not permitted to call at 5 car platforms due to the rear unit being stranded and the risk of egress / passcoms? So even if they miraculously accepted all the 5 car 701s there’d still be some issues.
That's correct. 701s weren't going to have the same restriction, but who knows anymore. It's only 2 stations and 4 trains a day we're talking about anyway.
Is this Bagshot and Frimley on the four Monday to Friday peak only trains a day between Farnham and London Waterloo via Ascot? Two Farnham to London Waterloo in the morning peak and two London Waterloo to Farnham in the evening peak.
 

Snow1964

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Is this Bagshot and Frimley on the four Monday to Friday peak only trains a day between Farnham and London Waterloo via Ascot? Two Farnham to London Waterloo in the morning peak and two London Waterloo to Farnham in the evening peak.
Really ought not be too difficult to allocate pairs of two 5car units to couple of non standard peak hour workings.

Neither station is in the very complicated and expensive to lengthen the platform category, when you compare it to some of the work done for 2017 10car scheme eg moving signal and bridging an A road to extend platform at Kingston.

When you look at the speed platforms were constructed for stations like Hersham and Berrylands for new electric trains, then compare it to current glacial pace of fixing the problem, it makes you wonder where all the staff expertise in getting things done and delivering a solution on South Western has gone.
 

Peter Sarf

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Crickey - a lot of posts in the last few days and not really any positives to glean from it.
Hi all, first post over here so please let me know if you have any feedback/questions.

SWR released a bulletin for Operational Staff about 701 Operations.

Guards on the 701s now can operate from the rear cab in /0s and /5s. However they will have to wear a Hivis Jacket and this can only be used if the train is full and standing. This also means that if their is a short platform (eg Motspur Park & Thames Ditton) and it is full and standing the Guard will not be able to safely alight to the platform from the cab which means the train will not stop at the station. This raises concerns on trains per hour during peak times, as I've seen rammed 701s this new procedure could lead to more runfast calls at short stations.

Also, discussions with Guards suggest that they may be planning to have a guard office onboard 701s. Absolutely unbelievable to me.
Unbelievable - well it is actually rater believable.

I wonder if Covid will be trotted out as an excuse again ?.
In reality it is Covid that has meant SWR can just about cope with a lack of trains - at the moment.

This and HS2 are not a good advert for the UK railways - I am talking about the perception non railway people have.

In my life I have always been interested in excuses and trying to be understanding (some might say gullible). But eventually, if there are too many problems and excuses, anyone gets to the point where they lose interest. This farce has gone on for so long and taken so many twists and turns it is hard to take the railway seriously - hopefully just this part of the railway.
Thanks, as I thought.

The main problem then appears to be the Hounslow loop, where there are a number of short plans with very busy trains calling in the peaks.

There are short platforms at the western ends of the Windsor and Reading lines, but unless there's major service disruption or events such as Royal Ascot or Twickenham rugby trains are not rammed at these locations. Likewise on the Chertsey line, but these services operate via the Hounslow loop..
I can see the railway just simply not serving these areas when there are events planned at Twickenham and/or Royal Ascot.
Example - Coventry Arena anybody !.
Or they should all have been built as 5-cars in the first place as that would avoid the problem? Whatever, the entire project is an utter fiasco from start to finish (assuming there is a finish…).
Crying over spilt milk but yes Greater Anglia amended their order and simplified their Aventra fleet by splitting their originally ten car 720s into pairs of five car 720s. Granted the majority of their fleet were to be 5 car (89 iirc) so adding a further 44 that were to be 22 ten car was perhaps a little less radical.

I wonder if SWR did not see this option being relevant.

For me the easiest solution seems to be TEMPORARILY removing a trailer and making the 701s nine car. It is bound to involve software changes but ideally no hardware changes - hopefully there is a really dumb trailer in them - after all the 345s could live without two intermediate coaches as seven car units BUT that did require a different software version. Which would be easier to code as the 345s were more complex anyway needing to cope with three (?) different signalling systems.
I wonder at what point it becomes inevitable that south-western metro services will completely collapse sometime next year?

There must come a point in time when:
  1. There's insufficient time to get enough staff trained on 701s to roll out the minimum necessary fleet by next year
  2. There's insufficient time to get the various faults on the 701s sorted out to roll out the minimum necessary fleet by next year
  3. There's insufficient time to carry out overhauls of the 455s to keep them in service beyond next year (even if such were to be authorised or even possible)
If such a point is reached without solutions to those issues, service collapse will be almost inevitable as the 455s will run out of hours or miles and have to be withdrawn. Even possibly drafting in the 350/2s would need work doing to them, approvals, route proving, and no doubt more staff training needing union agreements.

All the while SWR management and unions are bickering with each other and fighting their internal battles, that day draws nearer. I doubt that we've reached it yet, but how far away is it? I hope that someone is keeping track of it, but I suspect that SWR management's plan is just to walk away and blame the oncoming disaster on GBR.
I would say that at this late stage only sorting the 701s is a possibility. This has dragged on for so long. The 455s have had a stay of execution for maybe three years already.
Really ought not be too difficult to allocate pairs of two 5car units to couple of non standard peak hour workings.

Neither station is in the very complicated and expensive to lengthen the platform category, when you compare it to some of the work done for 2017 10car scheme eg moving signal and bridging an A road to extend platform at Kingston.
If we are talking about just two stations and four services then someone needs to wake up and deal with the rules rather than the exception to them !.
When you look at the speed platforms were constructed for stations like Hersham and Berrylands for new electric trains, then compare it to current glacial pace of fixing the problem, it makes you wonder where all the staff expertise in getting things done and delivering a solution on South Western has gone.
I think. Really since privatisation, a lot of knowledge has left the UK rail industry and headed for railways overseas. I once read it argued that those managers and engineers that had emigrated were unlikely to return.
 

43066

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Money? Lack of sufficient skilled workers to do the installation work? Additional complexity beyond what to the layperson seems to be "install a few more lights in the stations"? A need to re-train drivers for DCO as the training course hasn't been based on? A need to change the cameras / displays that have been fitted to the trains?

From what’s been said over the past four hundred odd pages, some of all of the above.

The cameras and monitors do seem to have been particularly problematic for whatever reason, compared to say the 700s. Also the fact that the SWR network hither to has had no DOO (the original plan was for full DOO driver dispatch, albeit with a second person aboard) whereas the Thameslink/Southern/SE networks have been for decades.

It’s installing more/brighter lights, but also lights which don’t cause glare from certain angles, or otherwise interfere with the monitors. So quite a lot more complex than it first appears.
 
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wickham

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5Q53 2209 Farnham to Eastleigh ran on Thursday 30th January timmed at 45 MPH - was this Class 701 ?
5Q94 2209 Farnham to Eastleigh is booked to run again on Tuesday 4th Fabruary.
5Q64 2023 Wimbledon Park to Farnham is booked to run on Monday 3rd February.
Are these all 701 moves and if so what was sent to Eastleigh on 5Q53 on 30th Jan?
 

wimbledonpete

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If there's talk of removing a coach to make a 9 car (complex), or else the guard operating between tensabarriers (unrealistic), could they combine the two concepts and just block off an entire carriage in the middle of the train for the guard? Obviously a huge waste of space but could result in a quicker entry into service while the problem is sorted more permanently. Would prevent through walking, obviously, but you don't have that on 2x5 cars anyway - there'd of course be negative press reaction, but would it be any more negative than the endless delays and potential missing stops?
 

Snow1964

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If there's talk of removing a coach to make a 9 car (complex), or else the guard operating between tensabarriers (unrealistic), could they combine the two concepts and just block off an entire carriage in the middle of the train for the guard? Obviously a huge waste of space but could result in a quicker entry into service while the problem is sorted more permanently. Would prevent through walking, obviously, but you don't have that on 2x5 cars anyway - there'd of course be negative press reaction, but would it be any more negative than the endless delays and potential missing stops?
As someone who commuted to Waterloo from both Richmond and Kingston area for over 25 years, but now lives in West Wiltshire. All seems rather bonkers when I compare with how they deal with a station near me, Avoncliffe (platforms only about 1.5 cars length)

There are many trains that are two units (not through gangwayed) where guard has to leave the rear unit, walk along platform at previous station to front unit, then walk through (even if crowded, or very crowded because previous train was cancelled) to do front door opening), then reverse process to get back at subsequent station. No guards office in the saloons, they use rear cabs normally. If Wiltshire guards can walk along platforms, why is it beyond SWR guards at token number of stations with short platforms to do the same. It must be permitted in National safety rules.
 

43066

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There are many trains that are two units (not through gangwayed) where guard has to leave the rear unit, walk along platform at previous station to front unit, then walk through (even if crowded) to do front door opening), then reverse process to get back at subsequent station. No guards office in the saloons, they use rear cabs normally. If Wiltshire guards can walk along platforms, why is it beyond SWR guards at token number of stations with short platforms to do the same. It must be permitted in National safety rules.

They won’t be able to release the doors and then walk along the platform if the cab isn’t platformed (and no chances can be taken in a third rail area). There will be occasions where they are unable to walk through the train because it’s crush loaded, and there will potentially not be anywhere they can safely dispatch from due to the internal layout of the trains, which of course were designed with DOO in mind.

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If the issue is with tne 10 car trains, why is it that none of the 5 car sets are in service running as single sets?

The issue (or one of the issues) is with ten car trains with no intermediate cab - so not a problem for two fives running in multiple.
 

norbitonflyer

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If Wiltshire guards can walk along platforms, why is it beyond SWR guards at token number of stations with short platforms to do the same. It must be permitted in National safety rules.
I'm pretty sure Wiltshire platfroms, particularly short ones, don't get as crowded as those in commuterland. Even if the train itself is crowded.
 

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