Re-appealing Penalty Fare imposed (and first appeal turned down) after ticket barrier "ate" valid ticket

[Eastbourne]

There is more detail available but the essential point is that the ticket barrier machine at Eastbourne "ate" my son's valid weekly Season Ticket (he purchased the ticket in the morning on the same day and we provided the receipt for that purchase) and gave him back out a random other ticket - that belonged to a Senior Railcard holder.

He bought the Weekly Season ticket for Eastbourne to Bexhill at Eastbourne in the morning.
Used it to travel to Bexhill for college. Went through using ticket at barriers at both stations.
Used it at Bexhill to go through and board train for journey hone.
Used it at Eastbourne on arrival - inserted it to barrier machine to open gate and picked up the ticket that the machine gave back out. Was then stopped by staff to inspect this ticket at which point it became clear the machine had given him back out the wrong ticket and swallowed his valid ticket.

He was then charged with being unable to show a valid ticket.

I have appealed once and provided enough evidence to assume that there was no chance of the Penalty Fare being upheld. I expected it to be cancelled and also to have the cost of the taken Weekly Season Ticket refunded.

I now have to pay the £100 fine + cost of ticket or to re-appeal.

Hoping there is some one on here with relevant experience who can help me get this put right.

Is this something that has been successfully fought before?

 

[Titfield]

Please can you upload the correspondence with personal details and reference numbers obscured?

 

[Eastbourne]

Please can you upload the correspondence with personal details and reference numbers obscured?

Here is attached a copy of what I sent for the first appeal.

The letter I got from them was standard form with key line being:

"I understand a valid ticket was unavailable for inspection on request because it had been lost or mislaid."

This is the bit that in the circumstances I understandably consider to be an outrage, and am hoping that we can successfully challenge rather than just be bullied into paying up.

 

[Titfield]

Please can you upload the images of the ticket, receipt and penalty fares notice.

You may simply have to reappeal until the third stage when an independent person examines it.

 

[tonycockram]

You may want to hide your name on the first page of your download.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wow, this is quite possibly the worst, most unjust Penalty Fare I've ever heard of. Gatelines do sometimes eat tickets, and staff will generally open them and retrieve the ticket if it is lost. Did the OP's son ask them to do that? Did they open the barrier and not find it, perhaps because it had slipped down somewhere else?

Aside from appealing to the three levels (sometimes level one and two don't read it properly, level three is the only "proper" independent appeal) stating what happened I can't provide much help, though, other than that such appeals would prevent prosecution by the usual means, and if the TOC sued for the amount of the Penalty Fare then they'd have a hard job winning in my view* given that gatelines do this routinely and that could easily be given in evidence.

* However I am not a lawyer and this view is worth precisely what you paid for it.

 

[Gloster]

Did he actually pass through the barrier at Eastbourne at the end of the return journey and collect the (wrong) ticket after he had gone through? Or did he put his (correct) ticket into the slot, but found that a ticket was returned and the gates fail to let him through? If it was the latter he case did he then ask to be let through and show the ticket that turned out not to be the one that he had inserted into the slot?

If he did go through through the barrier at Eastbourne, did he look at the ticket that came out or did he just (start) to put it away in his pocket? If so, why was he stopped by railway staff: they should have told him in such a situation?

 

[Haywain]

Did the OP's son ask them to do that?

I have to admit to being baffled that a weekly ticket would be meekly surrendered in this way. But... you can't generally stick a ticket into a barrier until the previous one has been removed (barriers often don't open until that point), so I am hesitant to accept the description of events as presented.

 

[Eastbourne]

Please can you upload the images of the ticket, receipt and penalty fares notice.

You may simply have to reappeal until the third stage when an independent person examines it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pure speculation obviously but is this a scenario that could happen,
Person with single ticket from Anytown to Bigcity puts ticket into barrier, barrier opens, person walks through but doesn't bother picking up the ticket, person behind puts in ticket, mechanism swallows ticket, but opens barrier, person walks through and picks up left behind single ticket.

Cubic gates won't take another ticket until the original has been picked up. The junk used at some Northern stations if I recall will, but I've never seen that down South, fortunately.

Only other thing I can think of is that the "spurious" ticket had just been dumped on top of the gate and the season ticket wrongly swallowed when inserted as would happen at journey's end. That does happen occasionally, often enough that if you told staff it had happened they'd just open the gate and get it out. Season tickets are never swallowed deliberately so it would be obvious whose it was (and it would match with the photocard, of course).

 

[Eastbourne]

Wow, this is quite possibly the worst, most unjust Penalty Fare I've ever heard of. Gatelines do sometimes eat tickets, and staff will generally open them and retrieve the ticket if it is lost. Did the OP's son ask them to do that? Did they open the barrier and not find it, perhaps because it had slipped down somewhere else?

Aside from appealing to the three levels (sometimes level one and two don't read it properly, level three is the only "proper" independent appeal) stating what happened I can't provide much help, though, other than that such appeals would prevent prosecution by the usual means, and if the TOC sued for the amount of the Penalty Fare then they'd have a hard job winning in my view* given that gatelines do this routinely and that could easily be given in evidence.

* However I am not a lawyer and this view is worth precisely what you paid for it.

Thanks for your reply.

I agree it is outrageously unjust and I am very determined not to pay. I am very angry on my son's behalf and really want a fulsome apology and a reimbursement of what he paid for the Weekly Season ticket.

My 17 year old son was obviously extremely stressed and flustered by the whole experience and didn't do all the things one might have insisted on with more experience.

He told them that he had put his Weekly Season Ticket into the barrier machine, the machine had taken his ticket but not open the barrier, and that the ticket it had given him back couldn't possibly be his one. The station staff who issued the Penalty told him not to worry about it and "you won't have to pay anything today". They also told him to "go and get the CCTV footage from the Ticket Office" in order to be able to appeal the Penalty but when he did that, predictably, the Ticket Office staff said they couldn't give him CCTV footage.

Did he actually pass through the barrier at Eastbourne at the end of the return journey and collect the (wrong) ticket after he had gone through? Or did he put his (correct) ticket into the slot, but found that a ticket was returned and the gates fail to let him through? If it was the latter he case did he then ask to be let through and show the ticket that turned out not to be the one that he had inserted into the slot?

If he did go through through the barrier at Eastbourne, did he look at the ticket that came out or did he just (start) to put it away in his pocket? If so, why was he stopped by railway staff: they should have told him in such a situation?

Thank you for replying.

He didn't get through the barrier.

He put his ticket in
The machine swallowed it
The barrier didn't open and gave him back the different ticket that wasn't his.
Station staff approached
He told them that he had put his Weekly Season Ticket into the barrier machine, the machine had taken his ticket but not open the barrier, and that the ticket it had given him back couldn't possibly be his one.

That's when the Penalty was issued for not having a valid ticket.

The station staff who issued the Penalty told him not to worry about it and "you won't have to pay anything today". They also told him to "go and get the CCTV footage from the Ticket Office" in order to be able to appeal the Penalty but when he did that, predictably, the Ticket Office staff said they couldn't give him CCTV footage.

 

[Haywain]

predictably, the Ticket Office staff said they couldn't give him CCTV footage.

Ticket office staff would have no access to the CCTV. You can make a subject access request to obtain any relevant footage but should do that quickly as it is not retained for more than a month or so. However, you should be aware that it is unlikely to be detailed enough to show what ticket was being used so may not actually be very helpful.

a reimbursement of what he paid for the Weekly Season ticket.

The Penalty Fare appeal system is not going to deal with that. You will need to raise a separate complaint with the customer services team at Southern.

 

[Eastbourne]

I have to admit to being baffled that a weekly ticket would be meekly surrendered in this way. But... you can't generally stick a ticket into a barrier until the previous one has been removed (barriers often don't open until that point), so I am hesitant to accept the description of events as presented.

Thanks for replying.

As for "meekly" surrendering, remember this is a law-abiding 17 year old boy with limited experience of train travel and being confronted by an imposing authority figure.

On your technical point, I can only assume that the barrier machine malfunctioned.

I have just spoken to my son again and he described the incident as the ticket going into the machine and then (what he assumed to be his ticket but it wasn't...) coming out again on the same (platform) side of the barrier

If that is definitely physically impossible then I will quiz him further to see if there is other more accurate recall of events available

Ticket office staff would have no access to the CCTV. You can make a subject access request to obtain any relevant footage but should do that quickly as it is not retained for more than a month or so. However, you should be aware that it is unlikely to be detailed enough to show what ticket was being used so may not actually be very helpful.


The Penalty Fare appeal system is not going to deal with that. You will need to raise a separate complaint with the customer services team at Southern.

Thanks again. I agree about the CCTV... I only mentioned it because it fits the narrative of negligence on the part of the staff member issuing the ticket... they should never have mentioned access to CCTV as being a solution to the situation

If the Penalty Fare appeal is accepted on the grounds they accept the barrier swallowed the ticket then I will contact Southern for the refund

 

[Cuthbert]

Information on CCTV request.

https://www.southernrailway.com/terms/privacy-policy#section46

Scroll down a little to find CCTV if you still want to proceed.
The booking office should have pointed your son to the correct procedures.

Most companies hold footage for 28 days.

 

[Eastbourne]

Cubic gates won't take another ticket until the original has been picked up. The junk used at some Northern stations if I recall will, but I've never seen that down South, fortunately.

Only other thing I can think of is that the "spurious" ticket had just been dumped on top of the gate and the season ticket wrongly swallowed when inserted as would happen at journey's end. That does happen occasionally, often enough that if you told staff it had happened they'd just open the gate and get it out. Season tickets are never swallowed deliberately so it would be obvious whose it was (and it would match with the photocard, of course).

He told them very clearly that the machine had swallowed his ticket. He showed them the receipt from that morning's purchase of the ticket. The staff showed no interest in opening the gate and helping resolve the issue by finding his ticket.

Information on CCTV request.

https://www.southernrailway.com/terms/privacy-policy#section46

Scroll down a little to find CCTV if you still want to proceed.
The booking office should have pointed your son to the correct procedures.

Most companies hold footage for 28 days.

Thanks for this. From the information given can people help with exactly what CCTV footage I should be requesting?

The purchase of the ticket and it's usage in the morning and at Bexhill are not in dispute.

Will there be decent footage of the barrier gates at Eastbourne that shows him inserting his ticket and what ensued?

 

[AlterEgo]

He told them very clearly that the machine had swallowed his ticket. He showed them the receipt from that morning's purchase of the ticket. The staff showed no interest in opening the gate and helping resolve the issue by finding his ticket.

Of course they didn't help. He's a child and low hanging fruit for an easy penalty fare on their books. Wouldn't happen to me, more than twice his age, because I would be quite insistent they assisted me, but that's not his fault - he's 17 and hasn't done anything wrong here.

Thanks for this. From the information given can people help with exactly what CCTV footage I should be requesting?

It will be of limited value and will likely not include sound, but requesting CCTV of him purchasing the ST in the morning and exiting the barrier in the evening would at least show you mean business.

Will there be decent footage of the barrier gates at Eastbourne that shows him inserting his ticket and what ensued?

Possibly, if it's covered, but it will not show what ticket was inserted and again is likely not to record sound.

 

[Cuthbert]

Possibly, if it's covered, but it will not show what ticket was inserted and again is likely not to record sound.

I don't think it spat another ticket out.
I think the ticket was already sticking out.
I know even the cubic gates like at New Street will release the gates after a minute or so even if the ticket has not been taken. Then shuts after the person goes through.

The lad turns up most certainly not noticing the ticket on the other side of the gate puts his in.
As a ticket is already on the other side it keeps his ticket and an error code would have gone off.
Again the lad would not be looking for an error code.

 

[Titfield]

I don't think it spat another ticket out.
I think the ticket was already sticking out.
I know even the cubic gates like at New Street will release the gates after a minute or so even if the ticket has not been taken. Then shuts after the person goes through.

The lad turns up most certainly not noticing the ticket on the other side of the gate puts his in.
As a ticket is already on the other side it keeps his ticket and an error code would have gone off.
Again the lad would not be looking for an error code.

Yes but the error code should be in the machine logs.

I wonder, and hopefully @Hadders @WesternLancer @AlterEgo may comment here, whether it would be better to pay the discounted penalty fare, discontinue the pf appeal route and focus on writing to the managing director, or head of customer services or equivalent to ask for a refund of the pf, an apology and compensation. I have concerns that the persons reading the PF appeals are failing to grasp the (probable) sequence of events (EDIT and looking at the stated cause of the failure to produce a valid ticket) and therefore it needs escalating higher in the organisation than the pf people.

 

[Eastbourne]

Yes but the error code should be in the machine logs.

I wonder, and hopefully @Hadders @WesternLancer @AlterEgo may comment here, whether it would be better to pay the discounted penalty fare, discontinue the pf appeal route and focus on writing to the managing director, or head of customer services or equivalent to ask for a refund of the pf, an apology and compensation. I have concerns that the persons reading the PF appeals are failing to grasp the (probable) sequence of events (EDIT and looking at the stated cause of the failure to produce a valid ticket) and therefore it needs escalating higher in the organisation than the pf people.

Thank you again. This sounds like it could be good advice. Is there precedent for such an approach being effective?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think I would exhaust all three levels of appeal before going that way. The third one often produces better results.

 

[Eastbourne]

I don't think it spat another ticket out.
I think the ticket was already sticking out.
I know even the cubic gates like at New Street will release the gates after a minute or so even if the ticket has not been taken. Then shuts after the person goes through.

The lad turns up most certainly not noticing the ticket on the other side of the gate puts his in.
As a ticket is already on the other side it keeps his ticket and an error code would have gone off.
Again the lad would not be looking for an error code.

Thank you very much for this.

If the gate machine retains a ticket if inserted when there is one waiting to be taken out then that is exactly what has happened here.

The bit I'm confused about but easily solved is understanding how the machine gate works in terms of where the in and out ticket slots are positioned...? Are they both on the platform side of the barrier that didn't open for him? That is how he has described it to me.

 

[Haywain]

The bit I'm confused about but easily solved is understanding how the machine gate works in terms of where the in and out ticket slots are positioned...? Are they both on the platform side of the barrier that didn't open for him? That is how he has described it to me.

Both slots are on the same side of the barrier (the platform side in this case).

 

[Eastbourne]

I think I would exhaust all three levels of appeal before going that way. The third one often produces better results.

Thanks. It is good to know about experience of the different levels of appeal. I was shocked by the first refusal but it makes sense if that level is simply "I'm not really going to consider the evidence in any detailed way but will simply agree with my colleague, hoping you will pay up and go away...".

Both slots are on the same side of the barrier (the platform side in this case).

Thanks.

So the explanation is that the Senior Railcard holding owner of the ticket from Pevensey to Eastbourne left it in the "Out slot". The gate either opened after a short delay or he/she went on their way by some other means not needing to take their ticket with them....

Ted was next to the gate. Put his weekly Season Ticket into the "In slot" at which point it was swallowed by the barrier machine due to the blockage and an alert to staff created. They come along and inspect the ticket and ignoring all evidence and reasonable explanation issue the Penalty Fare notice....

??

Is this a technically feasible version of events? Would he have been able to put his ticket into the "In slot" with a ticket still in the "Out slot"...????

The struck through lines above are NOT what I now believe happened.

I think he put his valid ticket in, it got accepted and swallowed but not read properly so the gate didn't open. As part of the same action, the senior ticket from Pevensey to Eastbourne, that had correctly been retained earlier, was spewed out in error.

 

[Cuthbert]

Yes but the error code should be in the machine logs.

I wonder, and hopefully @Hadders @WesternLancer @AlterEgo may comment here, whether it would be better to pay the discounted penalty fare, discontinue the pf appeal route and focus on writing to the managing director, or head of customer services or equivalent to ask for a refund of the pf, an apology and compensation. I have concerns that the persons reading the PF appeals are failing to grasp the (probable) sequence of events (EDIT and looking at the stated cause of the failure to produce a valid ticket) and therefore it needs escalating higher in the organisation than the pf people.

Yes I agree. It could have been in the hopper for a little but probably long gone now. I do not know the station and how busy it can get.

 

[Haywain]

Is this a technically feasible version of events? Would he have been able to put his ticket into the "In slot" with a ticket still in the "Out slot"...????

As far as I recall this should not be possible.

It could have been in the hopper for a little but probably long gone now. I do not know the station and how busy it can get.

I can't imagine that the hopper won't have been emptied since this happened 4 weeks ago.

 

[Eastbourne]

As far as I recall this should not be possible.

This is a key point.

After talking to him again he thinks it unlikely that there was a ticket already there in the out slot.

He is as sure as he can be that he put his ticket in and the wrong ticket came out (as described below)

"He put his ticket in
The machine swallowed it
The barrier didn't open and gave him back the different ticket that wasn't his.
Station staff approached
He told them that he had put his Weekly Season Ticket into the barrier machine, the machine had taken his ticket but not opened the barrier, and that the ticket it had given him back couldn't possibly be his one"

Is THIS version of events feasible?

i.e. is it possible for the barrier machine to malfunction and give out the wrong ticket

For information the ticket that was given back was one that should have been retained by the machine rather than offered back out as it was from Pevensey to Eastbourne... so surely this strengthens the case if the machine spewed it to the out slot erroneously?

 

[Haywain]

Is THIS version of events feasible?

When a ticket is put into the machine it will either:
a) be rejected and returned to the same slot because it has been fed in upside down or is damaged,
b) be accepted and retained in the barrier's internal hopper,
c) pass through the machine and, accepted or rejected, produced at the second 'return' slot.
It should not be possible to feed a ticket in while one has been left in the return slot.

For information the ticket that was given back was one that should have been retained by the machine rather than offered back out as it was from Pevensey to Eastbourne.

Not all barriers are programmed to retain tickets.

This is how barriers normally operate in my experience and is why I am struggling with the version of events that you have passed on to us. I hope you understand why it is problematic.

 

[Eastbourne]

Thanks @Haywain

"It should not be possible to feed a ticket in while one has not been left in the return slot."

is this a typo?

Do you mean "It should not be possible to feed a ticket in while one has been left in the return slot" ....?

If so, then I've accepted that.

And we are left with the reality that the season ticket was put into the machine, accepted/swallowed/retained, and somehow the other ticket, that was inside the machine, came out at the return slot...

Another line of reasoning is to try and make a feasible alternative case?

How did the Senior Railcard holder's ticket end up being left in the return slot? Surely there is no way that the gate machines are set to routinely leave spent tickets clogging up slots? How would that person have got through the gate and left the ticket there without a member of staff removing it?

Even if there is an unlikely explanation for the above, it would have to be a massive coincidence that this all happened to my son at the gate barrier on the one day that he somehow used his Weekly Season Ticket to board at Bexhill but then lost the ticket before he got to Eastbourne. The fact is that he DIDN'T lose his ticket. He DID put it in the gate machine.

 

[Haywain]

is this a typo?

Oops! Yes, now amended.

Beyond that, I'm struggling to come up with an explanation, I'm afraid. If I were involved I'd be wanting to look at CCTV to try and understand what actually happened, and even that might not provide the answers. I'm afraid that I don't feel I can help further.

 

[RPI]

I'm assuming we're talking about cubic gates here? The stated version of events is virtually impossible (I'm not suggesting that the OP's son is lying), if a ticket is left in gate and then the gate opens, generally the ticket handling unit won't accept another ticket until the other is removed, I have seen on occasion though that another ticket will be accepted and it is thrown out alongside the previous ticket that was left in the gate, as for the gate keeping a season ticket, again, virtually impossible.

But we are talking of machines here which can have one in a million unexplainable glitches.

One sequence of events that may have happened (bear with me!) is that passenger A put in the wrong ticket which was rejected, whilst passenger a is stood there the OP's son puts his ticket in, which opens the gate whilst the previous passenger is told in the gate, previous passenger then picks up OP sons ticket and walks off unaware.

To the OP, maybe ask your son if the previous passenger was still stood in the gate when he entered his ticket?