• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

New rail lines in Scotland

Transilien

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2024
Messages
395
Location
Ayrshire
A new line between Glasgow and Edinburgh, stopping at Edinburgh airport, could free up vast space on the overcrowded line that currently connects the two cities and open up myriad different routes.
A diversion underneath Edinburgh Airport of the current Glasgow-Edinburgh line might work better as Glasgow-Edinburgh already has 4 routes that are all electrified anyway. An Edinburgh Airport station on that line would be great for connections to all areas of the central belt.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
9,276
My understanding is that it isn't a reinstatement it is (mainly) a new route to deal with freight to Cairnryan. It would be instead of spending billions on dualling the A75.

If we are to decarbonise transport then we do have to get long distance freight onto rail (and electrify it). And if we keep investing in roads then freight operators are going to use them - just as passenger transport does.
Where does that freight go to/from?
 

mike57

Established Member
Joined
13 Mar 2015
Messages
2,007
Location
East coast of Yorkshire
My understanding is that it isn't a reinstatement it is (mainly) a new route to deal with freight to Cairnryan. It would be instead of spending billions on dualling the A75.

If we are to decarbonise transport then we do have to get long distance freight onto rail (and electrify it). And if we keep investing in roads then freight operators are going to use them - just as passenger transport does.
But how is that freight going to cross to NI (and back). A rail tunnel isnt going to happen, how much freight is actually unloaded from road to ferry and reloaded at the other end? I always assumed the vehicles crossed with their freight on board, and I cant see rail, transfer to ferry, transfer back to road(NI side) being cost effective. In terms of decarbonising my first target would be 'diesel under wires', followed by widespread electrification of main and major secondary routes (anything with 1tph or more each way). A new route to Cairnryan would be well down the list.
 

Kingston Dan

Member
Joined
19 Apr 2020
Messages
293
Location
N Yorks
Where does that freight go to/from?
GB to Northern Ireland/RoI

But how is that freight going to cross to NI (and back). A rail tunnel isnt going to happen, how much freight is actually unloaded from road to ferry and reloaded at the other end? I always assumed the vehicles crossed with their freight on board, and I cant see rail, transfer to ferry, transfer back to road(NI side) being cost effective. In terms of decarbonising my first target would be 'diesel under wires', followed by widespread electrification of main and major secondary routes (anything with 1tph or more each way). A new route to Cairnryan would be well down the list.
Good question - presumably some sort of freight transfer/container operation.
 

HighlandStorm

Member
Joined
27 Sep 2024
Messages
14
Location
Inverness
Where does that freight go to/from?

From admittedly fairly limited observation at various GB to/from Ireland and Scottish island ferry ports, a good deal of trailers board and travel without the tractor unit which brought them to the port.

How much of this could be taken by rail to the ports for loading on the ferry?
 

stevieinselby

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2013
Messages
729
Location
Selby
It's always surprised me St Andrew's doesn't have a station. A wealthy, medium sized university and tourist town, I imagine there'd be lots of demand from the get go.
Branch lines are not always easy to integrate into the network.
The original line to St Andrews faced north to Dundee, although a new south-facing curve avoiding Leuchars shouldn't be too difficult to achieve as I would expect the majority of traffic to be to/from Edinburgh.
But St Andrews is a small town (pop under 20k) whereas Dundee is a city of 7–8 times the size. I believe that capacity on the route through to Edinburgh is under some pressure – if there was demand and capacity for more services along the Fife Coast then you would get more bang for your buck increasing the frequency to Dundee rather than running to St Andrews. But as a branch line shuttle, it would be an inefficient use of resources and would offer little or no improvement over the current 99 bus service, which runs every 7/8 minutes and takes 11–12 minutes for the journey between Leuchars station at St Andrews.

Leven works better because it is further from the mainline, and so the best bus link takes half an hour to Kirkcaldy or Glenrothes, which means the time penalty for having to travel by bus is significant, or in other words the gains to be made by switching to rail are greater – and the urban area around Leven and Methil is bigger than St Andrews.
 

mike57

Established Member
Joined
13 Mar 2015
Messages
2,007
Location
East coast of Yorkshire
a good deal of trailers board and travel without the tractor unit which brought them to the port.

But to unload those trailers, assuming they are containers, for doing part of the journey by rail is not going to be cost effective.

The only solution that I could see would be that the new line has a much larger loading gauge, and the trailers and contents (and tractor units as well if needed) are loaded on to rail vehicles at a location close to where the M6 becomes M74, for transfer to Cairnryan, with probably an automated loading/unloading system. Much like the channel tunnel shuttle in terms of rail vehicles. It would work but I am ruling it out on cost grounds, both build costs, and because it would require a huge subsidy to compete with just simply driving the load to Cairnryan.

My own view is there are other far more worthy projects if the amount of money to build something like this were to be available.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
4,877
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
But where in GB - enough from far enough away and concentrated enough to justify the huge expense?

That is surely the issue with any notion of the Port Road taking lorries off the A75; The lorries originate from multiple locations so would have to, as @mike57 says, be transferred onto rail somewhere (and off again at Cairnryan). The time this would take, aggravated by train frequency, and the costs involved, makes the idea non-viable.
 

Kingston Dan

Member
Joined
19 Apr 2020
Messages
293
Location
N Yorks
Branch lines are not always easy to integrate into the network.
The original line to St Andrews faced north to Dundee, although a new south-facing curve avoiding Leuchars shouldn't be too difficult to achieve as I would expect the majority of traffic to be to/from Edinburgh.
But St Andrews is a small town (pop under 20k) whereas Dundee is a city of 7–8 times the size. I believe that capacity on the route through to Edinburgh is under some pressure – if there was demand and capacity for more services along the Fife Coast then you would get more bang for your buck increasing the frequency to Dundee rather than running to St Andrews. But as a branch line shuttle, it would be an inefficient use of resources and would offer little or no improvement over the current 99 bus service, which runs every 7/8 minutes and takes 11–12 minutes for the journey between Leuchars station at St Andrews.

Leven works better because it is further from the mainline, and so the best bus link takes half an hour to Kirkcaldy or Glenrothes, which means the time penalty for having to travel by bus is significant, or in other words the gains to be made by switching to rail are greater – and the urban area around Leven and Methil is bigger than St Andrews.
Except that rail drives far greater modal shift away from roads. However good the bus service is there is still a degree of snobbery from certain quarters (I suspect very over represented in St Andrews) about using buses. We also don't have proper integrated ticketing between rail and bus, so it's more of a hassle to use and driving becomes the easier option.
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
3,565
Except that rail drives far greater modal shift away from roads. However good the bus service is there is still a degree of snobbery from certain quarters (I suspect very over represented in St Andrews) about using buses. We also don't have proper integrated ticketing between rail and bus, so it's more of a hassle to use and driving becomes the easier option.
Except St Andrews is one of the places that do have integrated ticketing. You can buy a rail ticket to St Andrews and the last leg will be fulfilled by the bus from Leuchars.
 

lachlan

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2019
Messages
1,023
Except that rail drives far greater modal shift away from roads. However good the bus service is there is still a degree of snobbery from certain quarters (I suspect very over represented in St Andrews) about using buses. We also don't have proper integrated ticketing between rail and bus, so it's more of a hassle to use and driving becomes the easier option.
I agree on the snobbery part and this lines up with my experience. Though how true this is in St Andrews I'm not sure as a big proportion of travellers are presumably students who are less likely to have a car.

I still think new stations on existing lines and speed/capacity upgrades would be a better use of funds
 

NIT100

Member
Joined
10 Aug 2022
Messages
174
Location
Glasgow
I agree on the snobbery part and this lines up with my experience. Though how true this is in St Andrews I'm not sure as a big proportion of travellers are presumably students who are less likely to have a car.

I still think new stations on existing lines and speed/capacity upgrades would be a better use of funds
Although any students resident in Scotland under 22 (or over 60) would get free bus travel, which will reduce demand for rail from this demographic.
 

VioletEclipse

Member
Joined
10 Nov 2018
Messages
885
Location
Dùn Èideann
What Scotland really needs is a high quality interurban bus network, including integrated ticketing and timetables with the railway. Probably somewhere between the rural Citylink and the TrawsCymru system, with Ember's ease of booking and cycle spaces.

The only routes on the map that are vaguely viable are Tweedbank to Hawick (not to Carlisle), Leuchars to St Andrews, and maybe Dyce to Peterhead/Fraserburgh at a stretch.
Yes an interurban bus network is needed, however one train can carry much more than one bus, and some of the routes proposed (arguably all) have enough demand for train level capacity reather than bus level capacity, espescially in places where the roads are often congested.
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
9,276
Except that rail drives far greater modal shift away from roads. However good the bus service is there is still a degree of snobbery from certain quarters (I suspect very over represented in St Andrews) about using buses. We also don't have proper integrated ticketing between rail and bus, so it's more of a hassle to use and driving becomes the easier option.
I don’t think that holds for a decent bus from nearer home vs an infrequent rattler from a draughty branch station.
 

yoyothehobo

Member
Joined
21 Aug 2015
Messages
693
and some of the routes proposed (arguably all) have enough demand for train level capacity reather than bus level capacity, espescially in places where the roads are often congested.
Citation Needed.

Garve to Ullapool needs 1 or 2 buses a day to meet with ferries.

Inverness to Fort William. The two places exist as very separate places. You wouldnt speed up travel to Inverness if you went via Fort William and vice versa and the travel demand is so seasonal that you would spend over half the year carting fresh air about.

Tweedbank to Carlisle: No one lives there other than Hawick and they are not travelling to Carlisle. Its a lot of money to spend on a route no one is there to travel on and is slower than existing routes.

Port Road: No real passenger potential, time critical freight wouldnt use train shipment as they generally want there drivers to take the load on the other side. Non time critical can go the long way round if needed but at that point, just go via Liverpool.

St Andrews, bus it.

IF you think people would be upset about HS2, imagine spending Billions on Garve to Ullapool (and it would be billions)
 

lachlan

Member
Joined
11 Aug 2019
Messages
1,023
Although any students resident in Scotland under 22 (or over 60) would get free bus travel, which will reduce demand for rail from this demographic.
Yes it's unfortunate that the government has undercut the nationalised rail network by giving free travel on (largely) privatised buses.

I don’t think that holds for a decent bus from nearer home vs an infrequent rattler from a draughty branch station.
In my experience public transport is considered if its trains or trams. If a bus is involved, the car is used or walking instead.

Personally I will advocate for buses but most times when we've tried to take one they are delayed, diverted, or don't show up.
 

styles

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2014
Messages
588
Location
Midlothian
In my experience public transport is considered if its trains or trams. If a bus is involved, the car is used or walking instead.

Personally I will advocate for buses but most times when we've tried to take one they are delayed, diverted, or don't show up.
I feel the situation is a little different up here in Scotland.

The routes proposed by Gareth are (mostly) long distance routes. The current offerings are long distance coach-style buses with Citylink/D&E/Megabus, and in my experience those long distance routes have pretty good reliability.

I've taken long distance Citylink buses plenty of times and can't recall ever being delayed more than a few minutes, and yet to experience a cancellation.

Local journeys with Stagecoach though? Poor service all round, and bad pricing.
 

Uncle Buck

Member
Joined
30 Jun 2020
Messages
74
Location
Glasgow
A diversion underneath Edinburgh Airport of the current Glasgow-Edinburgh line might work better as Glasgow-Edinburgh already has 4 routes that are all electrified anyway. An Edinburgh Airport station on that line would be great for connections to all areas of the central belt.
Yes, this is probably wiser. I can’t conceive of a way to integrate Edinburgh Airport into both the Glasgow-Edinburgh and Edinburgh-Aberdeen lines, but to do so would be ideal.

As for St. Andrews, having actually lived there, I can say that there is very little need for a station. The shuttle bus to Leuchars is good. If you are travelling to Dundee, to get off the bus at Leuchars to get on a train to Dundee is pointless- you might as well just stay on the bus.
 

Trainbike46

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
3,259
Location
belfast
My understanding is that it isn't a reinstatement it is (mainly) a new route to deal with freight to Cairnryan. It would be instead of spending billions on dualling the A75.

If we are to decarbonise transport then we do have to get long distance freight onto rail (and electrify it). And if we keep investing in roads then freight operators are going to use them - just as passenger transport does.
I wonder what solution would be selected to get said freight onto the ferries into Northern Ireland

From a passenger perspective, I would absolutely settle for coaches from the Stena terminal to both Glasgow (as current citylink offering) and Carlisle, integrated with both the wider Scottish Citylink network and the rail network.

But how is that freight going to cross to NI (and back). A rail tunnel isnt going to happen, how much freight is actually unloaded from road to ferry and reloaded at the other end? I always assumed the vehicles crossed with their freight on board, and I cant see rail, transfer to ferry, transfer back to road(NI side) being cost effective. In terms of decarbonising my first target would be 'diesel under wires', followed by widespread electrification of main and major secondary routes (anything with 1tph or more each way). A new route to Cairnryan would be well down the list.
The vast majority of freight crosses as unaccompanied freight, crossing as trailer only, without driver or tractor. Loading on and off the ferry is handled by ferry company staff. Potentially, you could do that with freight going from rail onto trailer, and the ferry company delivering the trailers to the other side to be collected. I'm not sure the flows are significant enough to justify such an arrangment though?
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
3,565
Yes, this is probably wiser. I can’t conceive of a way to integrate Edinburgh Airport into both the Glasgow-Edinburgh and Edinburgh-Aberdeen lines, but to do so would be ideal.
Wasn't that essentially the EARL (Edinburgh Airport Rail Link) scheme that was cancelled in 2007? An underground station with links to both of those lines.
 

jadmor

Member
Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
101
Yes, this is probably wiser. I can’t conceive of a way to integrate Edinburgh Airport into both the Glasgow-Edinburgh and Edinburgh-Aberdeen lines, but to do so would be ideal.

As for St. Andrews, having actually lived there, I can say that there is very little need for a station. The shuttle bus to Leuchars is good. If you are travelling to Dundee, to get off the bus at Leuchars to get on a train to Dundee is pointless- you might as well just stay on the bus.
The original plan for EGIP (Edinburgh Glasgow) would have seen new lines build under Edinburgh Airport allowing through running from Aberdeen and Glasgow to Edinburgh.
 

Kingston Dan

Member
Joined
19 Apr 2020
Messages
293
Location
N Yorks
I wonder what solution would be selected to get said freight onto the ferries into Northern Ireland


The vast majority of freight crosses as unaccompanied freight, crossing as trailer only, without driver or tractor. Loading on and off the ferry is handled by ferry company staff. Potentially, you could do that with freight going from rail onto trailer, and the ferry company delivering the trailers to the other side to be collected. I'm not sure the flows are significant enough to justify such an arrangment though?
According to this (p4) scottish-transport-statistics-2023.pdf Cairnryan handles 3.5m tonnes of freight - I don't know what that looks like in lorry terms (just under a 100,000 presumably at 40 tonnes each?) and whether a significant amount could be shifted to rail and what that would look like in freight train movements.
 

mike57

Established Member
Joined
13 Mar 2015
Messages
2,007
Location
East coast of Yorkshire
just under a 100,000 presumably at 40 tonnes each?
So thats around 270 per day, assuming its roughly 50/50 to and from Northern Ireland thats 135 loads each way, spread that over a 12 hour day its around 10 an hour, spread it over an 18 hour day and its 7-8 an hour each way, assuming the 100,000 is about right that doesn't sound like enough to support a rail ferry operation
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,135
Well this made me chuckle. Top Trumps crayons!

Surely this can’t be serious.
 

roadierway77

Member
Joined
23 Jun 2019
Messages
396
Location
Edinburgh
Surely one of the simplest reopenings would be Grangemouth? The line is already electrified and Glasgow Queen Street to Falkirk Grahamston services turn around on the Grangemouth branch line already. You'd perhaps even be able to reopen without any additional train units needed as the Queen Street - Grahamston services tend to lay over on the Grangemouth branch for a good 20-30 minutes. Plus, it ticks similar boxes to Leven - an area of socio-economic deprivation with relatively poor transport links. Seems like a no-brainer.
 

AlastairFraser

Established Member
Joined
12 Aug 2018
Messages
3,381
Some of these are quite unrealistic.

It would be better to dual the A75 from Gretna to Stranraer.

Why Ullapool when there are towns like Tillicoultry, Clackmannan, Kinross, Crieff where the same £ spent would benefit vastly more people?

St Andrews and Fraserburgh I get.

Inverness to Fort William would be a sustainable key tourist route if electrified.

If you're going to build an HS line to Edinburgh and build a line to Carlisle through the borders. Maybe just build an HS line through the borders instead? With just two HS trains an hour, there'd be plenty of scope to run a "local" 125mph EMU behind each service.
I agree about Ullapool/Fort Bill to Inverness, but St Andrews makes no sense. Too much is built on at multiple points along the route, and most of the traffic will be heading to Edinburgh/Glasgow, so the line needs to head south/south west if anything.

The Borders line doesn't just connect Hawick/Langholm, it provides more capacity for more direct NW/Yorks to Edinburgh trains, using existing infrastructure (especially with through regional services from the S&C). You could also free up the WCML north of Carlisle as well by diverting existing faster Edinburgh services this way.
Indeed, it would need to be electrified but this isn't a huge barrier.

There's a few reasons why reopening something similar to the old Port Road, but much higher speed, would be sensible.
- 1) providing parkway stations for many of the small towns along the route to revitalise Galloway
2) with a route to Cairnryan and an intermodal terminal there, you could significantly reduce the volume of lorries needing to cross with their cargo (especially important in a time where there is so much paperwork and bureaucracy, in order to comply with the Windsor Framework) and potentially help relieve traffic issues on the M6/M74 as well.
3) You could operate Stranraer connections (including a Stranraer Parkway station with a shuttle bus for foot passengers using Cairnryan) via the new line and extend electric Ayr services to Girvan on the old coastal line, then convert the Girvan to Stranraer section into a heritage railway. The area has a lot of undeveloped tourist potential, and a long heritage railway would help bring tourists in. Additionally, the new connection would be a much more frequent and reliable option for nearly all D&G residents travelling into the Central Belt or south into England anyway.
I don’t get St Andrews being treated as near obvious. from a map the original trackbed looks heavily obstructed with many roads and accesses to deal with, would presumably end in a station right on the edge of the town, and has no obvious service to extend.
So I don’t see how it would be better than a bus that actually goes around the town and would likely be more frequent.
Exactly. Maybe if VLR takes off, you could operate a line that penetrates much further into the town, possibly with involvement from the local uni's engineering school too.
My understanding is that it isn't a reinstatement it is (mainly) a new route to deal with freight to Cairnryan. It would be instead of spending billions on dualling the A75.

If we are to decarbonise transport then we do have to get long distance freight onto rail (and electrify it). And if we keep investing in roads then freight operators are going to use them - just as passenger transport does.
It does also have some valid passenger potential too though.
 

yoyothehobo

Member
Joined
21 Aug 2015
Messages
693
The Borders line doesn't just connect Hawick/Langholm, it provides more capacity for more direct NW/Yorks to Edinburgh trains, using existing infrastructure (especially with through regional services from the S&C). You could also free up the WCML north of Carlisle as well by diverting existing faster Edinburgh services this way.
Indeed, it would need to be electrified but this isn't a huge barrier.
In what world does it do this? It didnt do it when the Waverley Line was open and it wouldnt do it now. And even if it did, how would you fit the services in amongst local services there. Its an insane suggestion.


There's a few reasons why reopening something similar to the old Port Road, but much higher speed, would be sensible.
- 1) providing parkway stations for many of the small towns along the route to revitalise Galloway
2) with a route to Cairnryan and an intermodal terminal there, you could significantly reduce the volume of lorries needing to cross with their cargo (especially important in a time where there is so much paperwork and bureaucracy, in order to comply with the Windsor Framework) and potentially help relieve traffic issues on the M6/M74 as well.
3) You could operate Stranraer connections (including a Stranraer Parkway station with a shuttle bus for foot passengers using Cairnryan) via the new line and extend electric Ayr services to Girvan on the old coastal line, then convert the Girvan to Stranraer section into a heritage railway. The area has a lot of undeveloped tourist potential, and a long heritage railway would help bring tourists in. Additionally, the new connection would be a much more frequent and reliable option for nearly all D&G residents travelling into the Central Belt or south into England anyway.

1)Parkway stations generally need to serve some population, barely anyone lives in D+G in terms of rail transit.
2) Transhipments are expensive and time consuming, at this point you need to drop the trailer at a rail terminal, it then goes via train to the ferry terminal, is transhipped, then loaded onto the ferry and vice versa at the other end. A tiny proportion of the traffic on the M6/74 is going to Stranraer.
3) Thats just insane.
 

Trainbike46

Established Member
Joined
18 Sep 2021
Messages
3,259
Location
belfast
So thats around 270 per day, assuming its roughly 50/50 to and from Northern Ireland thats 135 loads each way, spread that over a 12 hour day its around 10 an hour, spread it over an 18 hour day and its 7-8 an hour each way, assuming the 100,000 is about right that doesn't sound like enough to support a rail ferry operation
Is that both ferryports in Cairnryan, or just one?

Well this made me chuckle. Top Trumps crayons!

Surely this can’t be serious.
Most of it probably isn't. I can't see a Carlisle-Cairnryan railway happening, that is for sure!
 

Top